Are we all too scared to 'rock the boat" ?
Sunday, April 29, 2007 by Vampothika | Discussion: Community
.....Due to a recent discussion about a skin, I guess I thought I would bring the topic here so everybody could have a say and share their two cents worth on the matter..
and here is the meat of the question...." are we all too scared to rock the boat when it comes
to critisizing others work, especially when we know it could do with a little tuning and or guidance for improvement?"
I mean helpful critisism, not being mean to others, or saying rubbish like *plain ugly*...instead of just saying 'wow thats great' all the time...
and I guess another question to raise is...how many of us download a skin and test it before we comment?
or do we just comment? (then again i know some of us have to be frugal downloaders.. cause we havent subscribed yet......ect)
I guess the bottom line is......are we too 'touchy' to critisizm when someone gives it? why should others jump to defend if the critisizm is good and useable? especially if it's going to help the skinner....
Its a very intersting topic I think, and something that I think that we all need to address...specially since we are a community of skinners, and there is competition out there........
From my own point of view and experience, I nearly died when boopish actually critiqued my skin, FINALLY someone had pointed out things I could do to improve...it was heaven! 
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Fairyy~
Reply #2 Sunday, April 29, 2007 7:40 AM
Reply #2 Sunday, April 29, 2007 7:40 AM
No one likes critisizm..but there is a way to point out flaws that others might not see without hurting their pride.
Being brutally blunt...well not everyone sees that as constructive at all.
I have never made a comment on a skin if I haven't downloaded it and tried it out. There are lots of skins that I just don't like after I download them..no biggy, the delete button is just a click away, but do I feel the need to tell the person that it was crap?
no..
because any effort was still an effort and it deserves to be treated as such.
Being brutally blunt...well not everyone sees that as constructive at all.
I have never made a comment on a skin if I haven't downloaded it and tried it out. There are lots of skins that I just don't like after I download them..no biggy, the delete button is just a click away, but do I feel the need to tell the person that it was crap?
no..
because any effort was still an effort and it deserves to be treated as such.
WOM
Reply #3 Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:19 AM
Reply #3 Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:19 AM
A lot of people just don't comment anymore or just give the looks good, nice, because they see how people don't like it if they give an honest evaluation. You either get the skinner crying or his fan club or both. Same goes for rating, the fan club gives you stupidly high ratings, then ya need to update it a couple times because of the many things thats wrong. Sometimes the ego gets in the way.
Murex
Reply #4 Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:20 AM
Reply #4 Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:20 AM
I don't think it's the fact that people are scared to comment they just don't care. All they want to do is download all they can for free. It's the good skinners that could help out the most but I have found that most of them are too busy cranking out skins to help out. Oh sure they find the time to pat each other on the back. And you will almost always see the same names on the comments of the popular skinners but hardly ever do you see them make comments on a new skinner. When I first started to skin I would email some of the skinners asking for help A couple of them did help but most never even replied to my email. And some of the ones that did reply would say things like" look in here and that will give you a hint" or "Google it" But the one I loved was "Go find tutorials no one helped me." Yes I know that I could have googled it and found tutorials which I have done plenty of that because that was the only way I was going to learn. But some times it really helps to have some one who has done it explained it to you.
To the skinners that did help me out my heart felt THANKS.
To the skinners that did help me out my heart felt THANKS.
MsPooma
Reply #5 Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:37 AM
Reply #5 Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:37 AM
I'm not a skinner and I don't just come here to download all I can for free. I paid for my programs and my subscription, so I do download some, but not everything I see. I like coming here and looking at what's new and checking out the forums. I jump in and help when I can, but I don't know that much about the programs to the point where I can say, "Hey, go in here or there and do this or that". I do have room for improvement as far as commenting goes. I guess I should comment on whatever I download, that's only fair. Yep, I'll start doing exactly that.
Chasbo
Reply #6 Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:05 AM
Reply #6 Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:05 AM
Use common sense.
Just the facts.
Don't be mean.
Don't curse.
Be constructive - but be honest.
Seems reasonable to me.
Just the facts.
Don't be mean.
Don't curse.
Be constructive - but be honest.
Seems reasonable to me.
seldomseen
Reply #7 Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:26 AM
I try to do that. A lot of time, talent and especially persistence goes into the creation of any form of graphic art. When you add in the coding, debugging, and certainly the many hours, days, weeks, and yes, months(!) of intensely focused concentration to make sure every bit and piece is interdependent and cohesive and just runs like a well-tuned machine, it's astounding that so much is put up for FREE(!) for us to just pick up and use! For me to just grab something and run away with it is really, well, I don't have the words to describe that at the moment... just not right, to say the least. These works posted here and other places are special. To the creators/publishers I say thanks. You make my days a little brighter and more fun. Peace.
Reply #7 Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:26 AM
I guess I should comment on whatever I download, that's only fair
I try to do that. A lot of time, talent and especially persistence goes into the creation of any form of graphic art. When you add in the coding, debugging, and certainly the many hours, days, weeks, and yes, months(!) of intensely focused concentration to make sure every bit and piece is interdependent and cohesive and just runs like a well-tuned machine, it's astounding that so much is put up for FREE(!) for us to just pick up and use! For me to just grab something and run away with it is really, well, I don't have the words to describe that at the moment... just not right, to say the least. These works posted here and other places are special. To the creators/publishers I say thanks. You make my days a little brighter and more fun. Peace.
MsPooma
Reply #8 Sunday, April 29, 2007 12:11 PM
I guess I should comment on whatever I download, that's only fair.
I should have worded that a bit different. I meant to say comment more often than what I have been doing.
Reply #8 Sunday, April 29, 2007 12:11 PM
I guess I should comment on whatever I download, that's only fair.
I should have worded that a bit different. I meant to say comment more often than what I have been doing.
Z71
Reply #9 Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:30 PM
OK. Let's see if I can explain a few things without (pis...upsetting) anyone.
Some of us do care. I've taken lots of people under my wing and shown them the ropes. Some give you credit, some don't.
Sometimes you get burned. I took someone under my wing, and after a year and a half of help, they went thier own way and started thier own website. Alot of wasted hours on my part.
I do leave comments on newbie skinners, but you have to remember some of the kids these days. Everyone is a skinning god or so they think. Been shot down by alot of first time skinners, so I only comment now if I know they have been here awhile. I've even emailed people with suggestions to help them out. No reply of thank or nothing but I do see the changes I suggested later. Hmmm...
In closing, I don't think it should be a given that long time skinners (HAVE) to give advice.
I think we should be given the (chose) to help. I don't know what your life is like and you don't know mine. So, if any help is given, smile and soak it up. If not, then be a little independent and try to work things out for yourself. That space between your ears isn't there just to hold your hair up. There are tons of tutorials out there.
Here is a big piece of advice. When making skins, always check your "margins". That one is the root of all the problems, 9 out of 10 times, from the emails I get.
Reply #9 Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:30 PM
I don't think it's the fact that people are scared to comment they just don't care. All they want to do is download all they can for free. It's the good skinners that could help out the most but I have found that most of them are too busy cranking out skins to help out. Oh sure they find the time to pat each other on the back. And you will almost always see the same names on the comments of the popular skinners but hardly ever do you see them make comments on a new skinner. When I first started to skin I would email some of the skinners asking for help A couple of them did help but most never even replied to my email. And some of the ones that did reply would say things like" look in here and that will give you a hint" or "Google it" But the one I loved was "Go find tutorials no one helped me." Yes I know that I could have googled it and found tutorials which I have done plenty of that because that was the only way I was going to learn. But some times it really helps to have some one who has done it explained it to you.
OK. Let's see if I can explain a few things without (pis...upsetting) anyone.
Some of us do care. I've taken lots of people under my wing and shown them the ropes. Some give you credit, some don't.
Sometimes you get burned. I took someone under my wing, and after a year and a half of help, they went thier own way and started thier own website. Alot of wasted hours on my part.
I do leave comments on newbie skinners, but you have to remember some of the kids these days. Everyone is a skinning god or so they think. Been shot down by alot of first time skinners, so I only comment now if I know they have been here awhile. I've even emailed people with suggestions to help them out. No reply of thank or nothing but I do see the changes I suggested later. Hmmm...
In closing, I don't think it should be a given that long time skinners (HAVE) to give advice.
I think we should be given the (chose) to help. I don't know what your life is like and you don't know mine. So, if any help is given, smile and soak it up. If not, then be a little independent and try to work things out for yourself. That space between your ears isn't there just to hold your hair up. There are tons of tutorials out there.
Here is a big piece of advice. When making skins, always check your "margins". That one is the root of all the problems, 9 out of 10 times, from the emails I get.
cplair
Reply #10 Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:50 PM
Reply #10 Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:50 PM
People love to be stroked; therefore flattering compliments are always welcome.
Constructive criticism as long as it isn't hurtful should also be as welcome!
No one likes to be belittled or otherwise having their efforts insulted!
But there's nothing wrong with keepin' it real! That's the way it should be, especially from a friend!
Everyone has varying degrees of acceptance with this, so it's all personal!
Bottom line, if you can give it, you should be able to take it!
Cp
Constructive criticism as long as it isn't hurtful should also be as welcome!
No one likes to be belittled or otherwise having their efforts insulted!
But there's nothing wrong with keepin' it real! That's the way it should be, especially from a friend!
Everyone has varying degrees of acceptance with this, so it's all personal!
Bottom line, if you can give it, you should be able to take it!
Cp
Phoon
Reply #11 Sunday, April 29, 2007 2:15 PM
Reply #11 Sunday, April 29, 2007 2:15 PM
Starting off a comment section on a skin with back to back, 
's and nothing more is simply rude.
Calling someone's work "Anti-Skinning" when it was indeed skinned is also simply rude.
Doing all this just because it was a minimalist style skin was uncalled for completely.
The 2 involved should have a little higher scruples than that, especially since one has reached Master Status and the other is fast approaching it.
Have I been guilty of doing it in the PAST.. yep, but not for quite awhile.
's and nothing more is simply rude.Calling someone's work "Anti-Skinning" when it was indeed skinned is also simply rude.
Doing all this just because it was a minimalist style skin was uncalled for completely.
The 2 involved should have a little higher scruples than that, especially since one has reached Master Status and the other is fast approaching it.
Have I been guilty of doing it in the PAST.. yep, but not for quite awhile.
Murex
Reply #12 Sunday, April 29, 2007 3:07 PM
Why do you feel it was a waste of your time? If they never thanked you for your time and effort I can understand being felt like you were used. But helping some one out is never a waste of time. Unless one expects to gain something from their help.
Reply #12 Sunday, April 29, 2007 3:07 PM
Sometimes you get burned. I took someone under my wing, and after a year and a half of help, they went thier own way and started thier own website. Alot of wasted hours on my part.
Why do you feel it was a waste of your time? If they never thanked you for your time and effort I can understand being felt like you were used. But helping some one out is never a waste of time. Unless one expects to gain something from their help.
cplair
Reply #13 Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:56 PM
I totally agree with this philosophy Murex!
To touch a life, any life in a positive manner is always it's own reward!
Cp
Reply #13 Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:56 PM
helping some one out is never a waste of time
I totally agree with this philosophy Murex!
To touch a life, any life in a positive manner is always it's own reward!
Cp
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #14 Sunday, April 29, 2007 5:07 PM
Reply #14 Sunday, April 29, 2007 5:07 PM
*SIGH*...knew this was gonna cost me (see that wink,it means I'm only partially serious,kinda sorta) Damn,there it is again.
When I was a schoolboy there were art fairs,if you didnt place 1st second or third,you got the dont feel bad green 'honorable mention'ribbon.No losers,everyone gets a trophy.
Before John and and I(in a juvenile attempt at being funny)commented on Chris's skin we made tour of Customise.org and read some of the comments...words like innovative,refreshing,creative and other such vs community mindwashing was rampant.
In an anti-windowblinds backlash they have created a mindset similar to what hoydytoydy art critics attempt with paint splotches.If you dont see it as art,you are just so booogewah.
Feeling guilty for be rude,we went back and explained our reasons.Chris accepted it with a bit of grace and all was fine.(well...he pushed John's button,but John has button that is labelled'dont push this button'.
)
An insidious invasion was afoot!Minimilistic ANTI-Skinning,mind controlling fascist were establishing a beach-head! Repel all boarders!Circle the wagons!
Where is it written a critique HAS to be constructive?Rude is bad behavior,true.But just not liking something in extremis should be acceptable.My favorite I get is 'my eyes are bleeding'. I love that one...makes me laugh everytime!
There wasnt anything to critique in Chris's skin technically...he's a competent skinner.In my narrow view,no style is a greater sin than incompetence.(that just takes experience to overcome).
So to say we were 'simply' rude is inaccurate...discourageing to the point of "I hope this dosnt catch on here",guilty.
(see that wink,it means I'm only partially serious,kinda sorta) Damn,there it is again. When I was a schoolboy there were art fairs,if you didnt place 1st second or third,you got the dont feel bad green 'honorable mention'ribbon.No losers,everyone gets a trophy.
Before John and and I(in a juvenile attempt at being funny)commented on Chris's skin we made tour of Customise.org and read some of the comments...words like innovative,refreshing,creative and other such vs community mindwashing was rampant.
In an anti-windowblinds backlash they have created a mindset similar to what hoydytoydy art critics attempt with paint splotches.If you dont see it as art,you are just so booogewah.
Feeling guilty for be rude,we went back and explained our reasons.Chris accepted it with a bit of grace and all was fine.(well...he pushed John's button,but John has button that is labelled'dont push this button'.
)An insidious invasion was afoot!Minimilistic ANTI-Skinning,mind controlling fascist were establishing a beach-head!
Repel all boarders!Circle the wagons! Where is it written a critique HAS to be constructive?Rude is bad behavior,true.But just not liking something in extremis should be acceptable.My favorite I get is 'my eyes are bleeding'.
I love that one...makes me laugh everytime!There wasnt anything to critique in Chris's skin technically...he's a competent skinner.In my narrow view,no style is a greater sin than incompetence.(that just takes experience to overcome).
So to say we were 'simply' rude is inaccurate...discourageing to the point of "I hope this dosnt catch on here",guilty.
vStyler
Reply #15 Sunday, April 29, 2007 5:29 PM
Reply #15 Sunday, April 29, 2007 5:29 PM
Anyone can look back at my comments since i have been here and see that in no way do I approach commenting in a negative or rude fashion. If whoever thinks whatever I said was rude.. so be it. I'll also stand by it, Minimalism in general TO ME is anti-skinning. What that means to me is as little effort as was possible was put into the making of the skin. Some people may disagree but after years and years putting every ounce I have into my work, I honestly find mimimalism as mentioned IN the thread.. almost offensive. Yes it's my opinion, BUT I have my right to it. If you don't like it I suggest don't read my comment or go get a tougher skin.
Fact is, nicety is just that.. nice. No one ever helped me along the way by saying nice work!!. THE most effective comments , the ones that affected me the most and caused positive change in my work were in fact the brutal ones. This community, while being a great one and I love it here, definately has a group hug mentality when it comes to commenting. I have heard from many a skinner "If i see one more 'nice work!, I think i'm going to be sick."
I typically try to be constructive in my commenting, If it hurts someone's feelings, so be it, it also may help them. When some replies, sounds like you need a hug..then I would consider patronizing me and I will reply in kind. I notice no-one noticed ChrisDarwins smarmy little attitude and slam him for it... but that's ok, I'm not here to make everyone feel better about mediochre work. I will try and help ANYone I can to the best of my abilities as I think I have shown so far in the forums, but to be blasted as rude and obnoxious for stating my honest opinion is to me equally rude and obnoxious.
I might have apologized if I had thought anything I had done was THAT bad , thinking back though I don't rememeber any such apology issued to me for any MUCH worse comments on my work. If your going to skin, learn to take criticism, good or bad or your going to have a REALLY hard time with it.
From now I'll say GREAT WORK! and move on or won't comment at all.
Bigger fish to fry n' all that good stuff.
Fact is, nicety is just that.. nice. No one ever helped me along the way by saying nice work!!. THE most effective comments , the ones that affected me the most and caused positive change in my work were in fact the brutal ones. This community, while being a great one and I love it here, definately has a group hug mentality when it comes to commenting. I have heard from many a skinner "If i see one more 'nice work!, I think i'm going to be sick."
I typically try to be constructive in my commenting, If it hurts someone's feelings, so be it, it also may help them. When some replies, sounds like you need a hug..then I would consider patronizing me and I will reply in kind. I notice no-one noticed ChrisDarwins smarmy little attitude and slam him for it... but that's ok, I'm not here to make everyone feel better about mediochre work. I will try and help ANYone I can to the best of my abilities as I think I have shown so far in the forums, but to be blasted as rude and obnoxious for stating my honest opinion is to me equally rude and obnoxious.
I might have apologized if I had thought anything I had done was THAT bad , thinking back though I don't rememeber any such apology issued to me for any MUCH worse comments on my work. If your going to skin, learn to take criticism, good or bad or your going to have a REALLY hard time with it.
From now I'll say GREAT WORK! and move on or won't comment at all.
Bigger fish to fry n' all that good stuff.
Fairyy~
Reply #17 Sunday, April 29, 2007 6:02 PM
Thats generally what I do...or I just say 'Thank You'
Thank you doesn't say I liked or or I disliked it. It just means thank you for contributing your time and effort for free.
You had a right to dislike his skin, you had a right to say why you disliked his skin. But, to see the first 2 comments were nothing more than a smiley ( ) that is supposed to be a 'frown' but just drips sarcasm to most of us is what made it seem rude. Perhaps your right in the tough approach, perhaps your wrong...but the bottom line here is WC has fewer and fewer skinners making WB's. I have no problem purchasing premium skins but with the increase in 'Masters' if the site doesn't encourage new skinners to upload their windowblinds here , pretty soon all there will be to offer are the paid versions. I think in the end that may not be such a wise move. The general anonymous users are not willing to pay and will just stop coming to Wincustomize.
If I were just starting out and I read those comments I'd be put off even bothering to upload a blind.
Its easy to see the good stuff in a good skin, but much harder to try and see the potential in a mediocre one.
Reply #17 Sunday, April 29, 2007 6:02 PM
move on or won't comment at all.
Thats generally what I do...or I just say 'Thank You'
Thank you doesn't say I liked or or I disliked it. It just means thank you for contributing your time and effort for free.
You had a right to dislike his skin, you had a right to say why you disliked his skin. But, to see the first 2 comments were nothing more than a smiley (
) that is supposed to be a 'frown' but just drips sarcasm to most of us is what made it seem rude. Perhaps your right in the tough approach, perhaps your wrong...but the bottom line here is WC has fewer and fewer skinners making WB's. I have no problem purchasing premium skins but with the increase in 'Masters' if the site doesn't encourage new skinners to upload their windowblinds here , pretty soon all there will be to offer are the paid versions. I think in the end that may not be such a wise move. The general anonymous users are not willing to pay and will just stop coming to Wincustomize.If I were just starting out and I read those comments I'd be put off even bothering to upload a blind.
Its easy to see the good stuff in a good skin, but much harder to try and see the potential in a mediocre one.
vStyler
Reply #18 Sunday, April 29, 2007 6:13 PM
The reason for that was we just couldn't find the words and thought it a slight attempt at humor. We did come back and explain ourselves. That still was not good enough. Oh well.
Reply #18 Sunday, April 29, 2007 6:13 PM
that is supposed to be a 'frown' but just drips sarcasm to most of us is what made it seem rude.
The reason for that was we just couldn't find the words and thought it a slight attempt at humor. We did come back and explain ourselves. That still was not good enough. Oh well.
Noiram
Reply #19 Sunday, April 29, 2007 7:25 PM
Reply #19 Sunday, April 29, 2007 7:25 PM
I got 2 cents,
but first, Thanks to Boss0190, Sir Bichur, vStyler, Bebi Bulma, I.R. Brainiac, Murex, Alperium, Quentin94 and anyone else that has helped me in any way.
I'm not a WB skinner but plan to be when I learn it. I'm sure you've all seen the crap in my gallery, even I know some of it is, but the the thing is... some people like it and those are the people I do it for. I've only been making stuff for about 2 months so I'm learning it as I go too.
I've never had any rude comments (knock on wood) but I have seen some on others works. I think what everyone needs to remember is that we are all trying to be good, some already have it and some don't.
Good criticism always starts with a compliment to the work or the effort.
Personally, I read all the comments posted to the download before I get it, then test drive it, then comment on it.
but first, Thanks to Boss0190, Sir Bichur, vStyler, Bebi Bulma, I.R. Brainiac, Murex, Alperium, Quentin94 and anyone else that has helped me in any way.
I'm not a WB skinner but plan to be when I learn it. I'm sure you've all seen the crap in my gallery, even I know some of it is, but the the thing is... some people like it and those are the people I do it for. I've only been making stuff for about 2 months so I'm learning it as I go too.
I've never had any rude comments (knock on wood) but I have seen some on others works. I think what everyone needs to remember is that we are all trying to be good, some already have it and some don't.
Good criticism always starts with a compliment to the work or the effort.
Personally, I read all the comments posted to the download before I get it, then test drive it, then comment on it.
The general anonymous users are not willing to pay and will just stop coming to Wincustomize.
An excellent point made by Fairyy. The internet world is a huge place and business can be done elsewhere. I respect your comments and opinions as do alot of other people, so we should try to be a little professional about it since what it all will boil down to in the end is hurting the status of the site.
Lokhup
Reply #20 Sunday, April 29, 2007 7:49 PM
Reply #20 Sunday, April 29, 2007 7:49 PM
The whole answer to the original question can be broken into 2 categories to make answering the question easier.
1. In relation to the actual artistic quality of the skin and the whole aesthetic experience, then it will be solely based upon the perception of the individual.
Then for example, If i like the colour (sorry I am English) blue and my skin is blue.
then some one criticizing my work happens to hate the colour blue, then the person providing any forms of feedback will be motivated only by his/her personal opinions which is fine because then this is what makes us all unique.
2. If on the other hand there is a problem when someone tries out the skin on their machine and something happens like, it crashes some application or the size resolution results in corruption, then any criticism is then a useful form of advice.
The real problem is that with all forms of art, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and this is what make art and artist so unique.
The fact that we are driven to perfection is what strives us forward so personally a positive feedback is not only useful but keeps you going...because lets face it if we made perfection then surely we would all give up?
1. In relation to the actual artistic quality of the skin and the whole aesthetic experience, then it will be solely based upon the perception of the individual.
Then for example, If i like the colour (sorry I am English) blue and my skin is blue.
then some one criticizing my work happens to hate the colour blue, then the person providing any forms of feedback will be motivated only by his/her personal opinions which is fine because then this is what makes us all unique.
2. If on the other hand there is a problem when someone tries out the skin on their machine and something happens like, it crashes some application or the size resolution results in corruption, then any criticism is then a useful form of advice.
The real problem is that with all forms of art, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and this is what make art and artist so unique.
The fact that we are driven to perfection is what strives us forward so personally a positive feedback is not only useful but keeps you going...because lets face it if we made perfection then surely we would all give up?
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Reply #1 Sunday, April 29, 2007 7:02 AM