Posting Someone ELSE'S work
A New Category?
Monday, April 2, 2007 by PoSmedley | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I would love to see a gallery for all of the stuff that is posted as 'someone else's work' and just put it all in there, whatever it is. There, you can split it into categories (walls, boots, etc.).
If the work being posted is originally created by a non-member and is posted by a WC member, I think it needs to be separated from the original work of WC contributor's.
I realize this will 'piss off' some people...that's not my intent. I also realize that this would involve defining 'other people's original work' and 'altered and/or improved on' and/or 'adapted for a specific proggie' and/or of course ports. All should include permissions and that they are included should be posted in the description.
It just doesn't seem right that someone gets ratings, points, etc., for work that someone else did..whom is not even a member of the site. I think if it is going to be posted here, it should have it's own category to distinguish it from everything else...no ratings or points..and not be allowed to consume front page space that can and should go to original works of member's. (Not that I have specifically seen anything 'not-original' on the front page)
IMHO
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If the work being posted is originally created by a non-member and is posted by a WC member, I think it needs to be separated from the original work of WC contributor's.
I realize this will 'piss off' some people...that's not my intent. I also realize that this would involve defining 'other people's original work' and 'altered and/or improved on' and/or 'adapted for a specific proggie' and/or of course ports. All should include permissions and that they are included should be posted in the description.
It just doesn't seem right that someone gets ratings, points, etc., for work that someone else did..whom is not even a member of the site. I think if it is going to be posted here, it should have it's own category to distinguish it from everything else...no ratings or points..and not be allowed to consume front page space that can and should go to original works of member's. (Not that I have specifically seen anything 'not-original' on the front page)
IMHO
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MySecret
Reply #162 Thursday, April 5, 2007 12:32 PM
Reply #162 Thursday, April 5, 2007 12:32 PM
Hopefully this will be in part solved with the new gallery pages.....Quote....by frogboy...But before that, what do you think of segregating the wallpapers from the skins so that skins don't get drowned out by wallpapers but at the same time people who really just want wallpapers can get them?
WinCustomize Homepage concepts
It is best not to ass u me that many of these skinners will want to be repeaters when over several months many posts have been created by skinners of varied programs with the exact same complaints mentioned in this thread.
In the forums Stardock & Wincustomize has made leaps & bounds but is sadly lacking when it comes to ensuring that quality work is made prominent in the newest gallery.
I am a down loader & reader, keep my Object Desktop & subscription up to date and help in the forums as my way of giving back. I do respect and support the skinners of original work and believe in every case it must be the most important part of this site.....No matter how hard WinCustomize tries to encourage new users by allowing low quality work....you will without question push both skinners & subscribers out the door. It is disturbing to see over time how the regular skinners works are buried. When I go to the newest section those are the people names I look for. It is wasting both my time & theirs to dig through so much to find the quality skins.....
Ok, the new users do not know their names or the type of quality work they put out.....and may never know because of so much flooding going on. And when your first view of the newest is flooded with low quality work, you expect nothing more, and those are not the type of skinners & artists that I or others according to this & many other posts on this site want either. Because without those quality skins, this place is worthless.
And the lower the quality of work you allow in the galleries, the lower the reputations of Wincustomize becomes. And those people do not become nor stay long time members of a site....they use it because they do not respect simple rules nor others in general.
So rather than new categories, or galleries per se.....not bc I don't want them....but without a doubt not wanted by either frogboy or WinCustomize in general.....then at least divide the newest gallery into 2 separate sections. Newest Original & Newest General (just a quicky idea for names)
This solves the issues of original work being highlighted & being the first thing new & regular users should see when selecting that gallery and allows the newer uploader's to see their own work in the newest gallery.
And in effect allows us to avoid that area completely. 
IMO it would also show those new users what is important to this site & at the same time encourage newbies to make more original works.
It's My Secret
WinCustomize Homepage concepts
It is best not to ass u me that many of these skinners will want to be repeaters when over several months many posts have been created by skinners of varied programs with the exact same complaints mentioned in this thread.
In the forums Stardock & Wincustomize has made leaps & bounds but is sadly lacking when it comes to ensuring that quality work is made prominent in the newest gallery.
I am a down loader & reader, keep my Object Desktop & subscription up to date and help in the forums as my way of giving back. I do respect and support the skinners of original work and believe in every case it must be the most important part of this site.....No matter how hard WinCustomize tries to encourage new users by allowing low quality work....you will without question push both skinners & subscribers out the door. It is disturbing to see over time how the regular skinners works are buried. When I go to the newest section those are the people names I look for. It is wasting both my time & theirs to dig through so much to find the quality skins.....
Ok, the new users do not know their names or the type of quality work they put out.....and may never know because of so much flooding going on. And when your first view of the newest is flooded with low quality work, you expect nothing more, and those are not the type of skinners & artists that I or others according to this & many other posts on this site want either. Because without those quality skins, this place is worthless.
And the lower the quality of work you allow in the galleries, the lower the reputations of Wincustomize becomes. And those people do not become nor stay long time members of a site....they use it because they do not respect simple rules nor others in general.
So rather than new categories, or galleries per se.....not bc I don't want them....but without a doubt not wanted by either frogboy or WinCustomize in general.....then at least divide the newest gallery into 2 separate sections. Newest Original & Newest General (just a quicky idea for names)
This solves the issues of original work being highlighted & being the first thing new & regular users should see when selecting that gallery and allows the newer uploader's to see their own work in the newest gallery.
And in effect allows us to avoid that area completely. 
IMO it would also show those new users what is important to this site & at the same time encourage newbies to make more original works.It's My Secret
WOM
Reply #163 Thursday, April 5, 2007 1:17 PM
Reply #163 Thursday, April 5, 2007 1:17 PM
WC is in the damned if ya do and damned if ya don't. You can't please everyone. If your more strict, your branded an elitist site. If you lower the standard, your letting crap in. So your caught between a rock and a hard place. So what do ya do? Whats the solution? Whatever it is, it won't please evryone.
vStyler
Reply #164 Thursday, April 5, 2007 1:31 PM
Reply #164 Thursday, April 5, 2007 1:31 PM
If you truly are damned if you do and damned if you dont then I think I would choose elitest over crap.
Solution is not to move standards drastically either way. There aren't just 2 standards.. It merely needs refined to accommodate.. a middleground.
Solution is not to move standards drastically either way. There aren't just 2 standards.. It merely needs refined to accommodate.. a middleground.
PoSmedley
Reply #165 Thursday, April 5, 2007 1:39 PM
The only ones I hear 'against' seperating are the mods and admins, unless I have missed something, and I may have. And I do understand that it may be something just too big or difficult to deal with.
Even this would help.
'Our' input was asked for, the current users/members/subscribers. Now would be the time to implement any changes like this while the site is undergoing an overhaul.
My Secret, I agree with what you wrote.
Reply #165 Thursday, April 5, 2007 1:39 PM
So what do ya do? Whats the solution? Whatever it is, it won't please evryone.
The only ones I hear 'against' seperating are the mods and admins, unless I have missed something, and I may have. And I do understand that it may be something just too big or difficult to deal with.
then at least divide the newest gallery into 2 separate sections. Newest Original & Newest General (just a quicky idea for names)
Even this would help.
'Our' input was asked for, the current users/members/subscribers. Now would be the time to implement any changes like this while the site is undergoing an overhaul.
My Secret, I agree with what you wrote.
Zoomba
Reply #167 Thursday, April 5, 2007 2:07 PM
Reply #167 Thursday, April 5, 2007 2:07 PM
How about this, we separate wallpapers from the rest of the content on the "Newest" page? That way walls don't push off icons, skins etc.
Frogboy
Reply #168 Thursday, April 5, 2007 2:13 PM
Reply #168 Thursday, April 5, 2007 2:13 PM
Here is the policy/solution I support:
1) Seperate wallpapers from other uploads.
Let's be honest about what the underlying issue really is here. The issue is that author A, having spent weeks working on something, can get their work flooded out by user B who is uploading tons of wallpapers they didn't even make. THAT is the main issue that needs to be addressed.
2) Fair use on wallpapers, boot screens, logon screens, and Dreams.
We are going to have to get tougher on people who aren't abiding by the terms of fair use. We allow fan art already. That is an established policy.
As the owner of the site, it was getting too obnoxious having to go around to other sites in our "community" to get say a Spider-Man wallpaper or a Star Wars wallpaper when I know these things were being uploaded but rejected here. To those who have a problem with that: Tough. Start your own site then.
But this is NOT the same as someone who takes a frame out of a video or whatever and posts it as their own or posts something from someone else without adhering to the fair use statutes in the DMCA. You MUST provide who made it and link to the original source.
So that is something we'll have to enforce more strongly going forward. But understand this: We are a site run by volunteers. Some of the attitudes and words that have been expressed to the volunteers is upsetting to say the least. Have realistic expectation and be reasonable in your discourse.
The reason other sites don't have moderation isn't because they're more open. It's because it's cheaper and easier. We do our best on moderation but we have to balance that with what resources we have.
Alperium
Reply #169 Thursday, April 5, 2007 2:31 PM
Reply #169 Thursday, April 5, 2007 2:31 PM
Most of people who comes here to spit on copyrights and permissions. 
They wish to receive beautiful skin.
So, make separate section for not author's works.
They wish to receive beautiful skin.So, make separate section for not author's works.
Fairyy~
Reply #170 Thursday, April 5, 2007 2:39 PM
Then you will have to separate boot skins.
IE: Boot Skin Red - Bootskin blue - Bootskin pink - Bootskin yellow - Bootskin white- Bootskin offwhite - Bootskin purple-ish - Bootskin pinkykindapurpleblueish.
You see ? That will not really solve the problem of the skinner that works 3 weeks on a WB or 2 weeks on a DX Theme.
You (not you personally) may not be trying to do this but it does feel this way to a lot of people that have been here. Im not trying to blame anyone - but when someone puts a lot of hours into a skin - no matter how 'unimportant' the application may be in the grand scheme of things - it just feels like your just being tossed aside lately when you see your skin tossed up with the same rating as the skin next to it that was not even completely skinned - then when you actually d/load the skin its full of errors. It makes you feel like ' why bother ?'
I was glad to see that you said there has been some bugginess to the Wallpaper Gallery ,that could be half the problem and confusion. I remember you plainly stating that no walls under 2.5 rating would be in gallery - then I was seeing wall after wall with 1/2 star - 1 star - 2 star - sometimes 5 in a row in the Wall Gallery all by the same person. I gather that these are walls being sent to personal sites and the uploader doesnt have one?
Maybe an incentive to get people to subscribe would be to have separate wallpaper galleries for Subscribers and one for Visitors. The visitors walls could be uploaded to that Gallery with no rating. That way, no hurt feelings to the 'newbie' artist getting 1 star - and if they are really good at it then it might be an incentive to purchase a subscription.
Reply #170 Thursday, April 5, 2007 2:39 PM
How about this, we separate wallpapers from the rest of the content on the "Newest" page? That way walls don't push off icons, skins etc.
Then you will have to separate boot skins.
IE: Boot Skin Red - Bootskin blue - Bootskin pink - Bootskin yellow - Bootskin white- Bootskin offwhite - Bootskin purple-ish - Bootskin pinkykindapurpleblueish.
You see ? That will not really solve the problem of the skinner that works 3 weeks on a WB or 2 weeks on a DX Theme.
Zoombas:This doesn't mean we're shoving the current community out the door. Creating a more friendly and welcoming environment benefits everyone, from the oldest to the newest user or artist.
You (not you personally) may not be trying to do this but it does feel this way to a lot of people that have been here. Im not trying to blame anyone - but when someone puts a lot of hours into a skin - no matter how 'unimportant' the application may be in the grand scheme of things - it just feels like your just being tossed aside lately when you see your skin tossed up with the same rating as the skin next to it that was not even completely skinned - then when you actually d/load the skin its full of errors. It makes you feel like ' why bother ?'
I was glad to see that you said there has been some bugginess to the Wallpaper Gallery ,that could be half the problem and confusion. I remember you plainly stating that no walls under 2.5 rating would be in gallery - then I was seeing wall after wall with 1/2 star - 1 star - 2 star - sometimes 5 in a row in the Wall Gallery all by the same person. I gather that these are walls being sent to personal sites and the uploader doesnt have one?
Maybe an incentive to get people to subscribe would be to have separate wallpaper galleries for Subscribers and one for Visitors. The visitors walls could be uploaded to that Gallery with no rating. That way, no hurt feelings to the 'newbie' artist getting 1 star - and if they are really good at it then it might be an incentive to purchase a subscription.
kenwas
Reply #171 Thursday, April 5, 2007 2:49 PM
It seems to me that most are glad the moderation is here and most acknowledge that it is often a volunteered and thankless job. That being said, it is the new additions to the product line, i.e., Dreams and the galleries they require that seems to be adding the over the top pressure and file checking burdens that can not really be handled in full guideline enforcement. If they are volunteers, why is that a drain on company resources?
Why not have more volunteers and even volunteers specialized in vid/loop or other Dream uploads?
Reply #171 Thursday, April 5, 2007 2:49 PM
So that is something we'll have to enforce more strongly going forward. But understand this: We are a site run by volunteers. Some of the attitudes and words that have been expressed to the volunteers is upsetting to say the least. Have realistic expectation and be reasonable in your discourse.
The reason other sites don't have moderation isn't because they're more open. It's because it's cheaper and easier. We do our best on moderation but we have to balance that with what resources we have.
The reason other sites don't have moderation isn't because they're more open. It's because it's cheaper and easier. We do our best on moderation but we have to balance that with what resources we have.
It seems to me that most are glad the moderation is here and most acknowledge that it is often a volunteered and thankless job. That being said, it is the new additions to the product line, i.e., Dreams and the galleries they require that seems to be adding the over the top pressure and file checking burdens that can not really be handled in full guideline enforcement. If they are volunteers, why is that a drain on company resources?
Why not have more volunteers and even volunteers specialized in vid/loop or other Dream uploads?
NightTrainthedark
Reply #172 Thursday, April 5, 2007 2:56 PM
I know what you mean Paul but the reality is that the 15 seconds rule is allowing some questionable work.
Reply #172 Thursday, April 5, 2007 2:56 PM
They are NOT 'allowed'...it's just that sometimes they DO...until such time as the issue is resolved through it being brought to our attention [assuming we missed it on upload]....
I know what you mean Paul but the reality is that the 15 seconds rule is allowing some questionable work.
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #173 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:01 PM
Funny...I had the exact opposite opinion of the site when I joined...so friendly,welcoming and encouraging that THAT convinced me to buy the software.
It was the high standards that kept me here and continually refining my work.
The opinions of the unwashed whiny masses should not affect standards.
Reply #173 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:01 PM
since part of our appeal is by not being a complete free-for-all, but we are able to recognize some of our own failings. We could do more to invite in new people.
Obviously, registered users are more important to us than anonymous users. They're repeats, they're the ones who come back, the ones who may get involved on the forums, who may themselves eventually become skinners. And the site serves two distinct and important audiences: artists who create the work, and users who download and use it. The first step to reach out to both audiences is to make the place more welcoming and friendly. Our biggest hurdle to overcome in recent years has been the overwhelmingly negative reputation the site has built up. We're seen as elitist, as unfriendly, and as unwelcoming to new users. 2007 is a big year for changing that, and we're trying to start at the top with policy and changes to the site.
Obviously, registered users are more important to us than anonymous users. They're repeats, they're the ones who come back, the ones who may get involved on the forums, who may themselves eventually become skinners. And the site serves two distinct and important audiences: artists who create the work, and users who download and use it. The first step to reach out to both audiences is to make the place more welcoming and friendly. Our biggest hurdle to overcome in recent years has been the overwhelmingly negative reputation the site has built up. We're seen as elitist, as unfriendly, and as unwelcoming to new users. 2007 is a big year for changing that, and we're trying to start at the top with policy and changes to the site.
Funny...I had the exact opposite opinion of the site when I joined...so friendly,welcoming and encouraging that THAT convinced me to buy the software.
It was the high standards that kept me here and continually refining my work.
The opinions of the unwashed whiny masses should not affect standards.
RomanDA
Reply #174 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:29 PM
yes.. and i believe this is the EXACT issue that I Posted on for the DX Widget gallery and all the flooding that one gets.
I thought we used to have check boxes to select the item(s) you wanted to show in the list, or not show.. could those come back???
Reply #174 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:29 PM
Let's be honest about what the underlying issue really is here. The issue is that author A, having spent weeks working on something, can get their work flooded out by user B who is uploading tons of wallpapers they didn't even make. THAT is the main issue that needs to be addressed.
yes.. and i believe this is the EXACT issue that I Posted on for the DX Widget gallery and all the flooding that one gets.
I thought we used to have check boxes to select the item(s) you wanted to show in the list, or not show.. could those come back???
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #175 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:30 PM
Reply #175 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:30 PM
I used to upload work to other sites but stopped for the very things that are beginning to happen here...I would rather be part of a smaller 'elitist' site than some repository of mediocrity.
As for "Tough,start your own site"...I am,and it will be very 'elitist'.Artist by invitation only.
I will always come here and upload here...this is my home away from home...I'm just concerned about what is happening to the neighborhood.
As for "Tough,start your own site"...I am,and it will be very 'elitist'.Artist by invitation only.
I will always come here and upload here...this is my home away from home...I'm just concerned about what is happening to the neighborhood.
Frogboy
Reply #176 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:38 PM
Reply #176 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:38 PM
Then you will have to separate boot skins.
IE: Boot Skin Red - Bootskin blue - Bootskin pink - Bootskin yellow - Bootskin white- Bootskin offwhite - Bootskin purple-ish - Bootskin pinkykindapurpleblueish.
You see ? That will not really solve the problem of the skinner that works 3 weeks on a WB or 2 weeks on a DX Theme.
IE: Boot Skin Red - Bootskin blue - Bootskin pink - Bootskin yellow - Bootskin white- Bootskin offwhite - Bootskin purple-ish - Bootskin pinkykindapurpleblueish.
You see ? That will not really solve the problem of the skinner that works 3 weeks on a WB or 2 weeks on a DX Theme.
Just getting out of a meeting on this actually. What we need to do is get the site to b like the old WC where we can set a rating threshold on what shows up on newest.
Then we make it so that bootskins and logons and such only get displayed in newest if they're exceptional.
If someone makes 10 versions of the same boot screen but are just different colors, we'll rate them appropriately.
Frogboy
Reply #177 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:39 PM
Reply #177 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:39 PM
Why not have more volunteers and even volunteers specialized in vid/loop or other Dream uploads?
The number of volunteers who have Windows Vista and happen to have Windows Vista Ultimate and have time to download 40 megabyte Dreams to check them out is small.
Bandit4edu
Reply #178 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:47 PM
methinks frogboy's robofrog (the one who sits in and types forum responses whilst he's busy doing other things) has slipped an ol' typing cog...
Reply #178 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:47 PM
What we need to do is get the site to b elik ethe old WC
methinks frogboy's robofrog (the one who sits in and types forum responses whilst he's busy doing other things) has slipped an ol' typing cog...
boss0190
Reply #179 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:52 PM
Small maybe, but there are a few of us around.
Reply #179 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:52 PM
The number of volunteers who have Windows Vista and happen to have Windows Vista Ultimate and have time to download 40 megabyte Dreams to check them out is small.
Small maybe, but there are a few of us around.
vStyler
Reply #180 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:53 PM
Probably equal in % to the user %..which is why is why I think a lot of people are getting their panties in a twist.. most of us are on XP.
Reply #180 Thursday, April 5, 2007 3:53 PM
The number of volunteers who have Windows Vista and happen to have Windows Vista Ultimate and have time to download 40 megabyte Dreams to check them out is small.
Probably equal in % to the user %..which is why is why I think a lot of people are getting their panties in a twist.. most of us are on XP.
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Reply #161 Thursday, April 5, 2007 12:24 PM
Po,
Didn't mean to ignore the main point of your thread. I just had to get past the first issue. Yes, I would like to see it, but putting it into place would be as or more difficult than trying to sort out the dilema of "It's mine under a different name somewhere else" issue. The easy method would be to create a gallery called "Crap Walls" and stick em all in there, but then were back to Jafo getting hate mail. A "Fan Art" (which is dangerously close to shit because it's only a letter away from being FaArt)would help ease the suffering as those are easily classified and thus could be filtered from view if desired. A "Photography" category could aid with the others and give time for the mods to research the originality as needed.
In the past, WC has been very very skeptical and evasive when it comes to creating categories though.