Posting Someone ELSE'S work
A New Category?
Monday, April 2, 2007 by PoSmedley | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I would love to see a gallery for all of the stuff that is posted as 'someone else's work' and just put it all in there, whatever it is. There, you can split it into categories (walls, boots, etc.).
If the work being posted is originally created by a non-member and is posted by a WC member, I think it needs to be separated from the original work of WC contributor's.
I realize this will 'piss off' some people...that's not my intent. I also realize that this would involve defining 'other people's original work' and 'altered and/or improved on' and/or 'adapted for a specific proggie' and/or of course ports. All should include permissions and that they are included should be posted in the description.
It just doesn't seem right that someone gets ratings, points, etc., for work that someone else did..whom is not even a member of the site. I think if it is going to be posted here, it should have it's own category to distinguish it from everything else...no ratings or points..and not be allowed to consume front page space that can and should go to original works of member's. (Not that I have specifically seen anything 'not-original' on the front page)
IMHO
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If the work being posted is originally created by a non-member and is posted by a WC member, I think it needs to be separated from the original work of WC contributor's.
I realize this will 'piss off' some people...that's not my intent. I also realize that this would involve defining 'other people's original work' and 'altered and/or improved on' and/or 'adapted for a specific proggie' and/or of course ports. All should include permissions and that they are included should be posted in the description.
It just doesn't seem right that someone gets ratings, points, etc., for work that someone else did..whom is not even a member of the site. I think if it is going to be posted here, it should have it's own category to distinguish it from everything else...no ratings or points..and not be allowed to consume front page space that can and should go to original works of member's. (Not that I have specifically seen anything 'not-original' on the front page)
IMHO
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PoSmedley
Reply #142 Thursday, April 5, 2007 9:43 AM
It's the wink at the end of that statement that bother's me, not that I am implying you meant anything by it. It just seems that that is the whole 'concept' by which these these uploads are getting through. A wink and a nod.
It's just an expression, grammatically correct or not. "I didn't do it' fits well, though, because it's really about playing dumb. ("I didn't know.") Like the map-walls. The author tells me he actually owns the maps and scanned them in despite the stating they were big enough to use as a throw rug, and admits to someone else on the site he stole them from the very site I pointed out to him they were from.
Reply #142 Thursday, April 5, 2007 9:43 AM
Po...re #131 ...... If the author does not know...and thus does not inform us....and if no-one else notices either...then existentialism rules...the rip is not a rip because it is not shown to be one.
It's the wink at the end of that statement that bother's me, not that I am implying you meant anything by it. It just seems that that is the whole 'concept' by which these these uploads are getting through. A wink and a nod.
Using your cops thing....
If they don't see it you will NOT BE CHARGED.
If they don't see it you will NOT BE CHARGED.
It's just an expression, grammatically correct or not. "I didn't do it' fits well, though, because it's really about playing dumb. ("I didn't know.") Like the map-walls. The author tells me he actually owns the maps and scanned them in despite the stating they were big enough to use as a throw rug, and admits to someone else on the site he stole them from the very site I pointed out to him they were from.
kenwas
Reply #143 Thursday, April 5, 2007 9:46 AM
Now you're talkin' !!!
Excellent!
Reply #143 Thursday, April 5, 2007 9:46 AM
We are working on a "report rip" feature for the site which will make this a lot easier. It will require that you provide a link to the original work as proof of the rip.
Now you're talkin' !!!
Excellent!
ArileenDesign
Reply #144 Thursday, April 5, 2007 9:52 AM
why mines not
I joke
Reply #144 Thursday, April 5, 2007 9:52 AM
There are also bugs at the moment with moderation that is causing some walls that should be personal page only items to show up in the main gallery.
why mines not
I joke
kenwas
Reply #145 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:07 AM
Very true. I have prints of my work being actually sold on several Russian sites so you have no argument from me with this statement. I think there is a concern about the Dreams policy opening the flood gates by allowing people to upload other peoples work in a situation that admittedly is almost impossible to completely monitor and not expect the same to spill over into other galleries which until now seemed to contain original work only. The incidents with the various walls mentioned in this thread would seem to indicate that that was the case and has raised red flags to many with very justifiable concern IMHO.
Reply #145 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:07 AM
Put bluntly, Russian rip sites do not give a f**k whose the upload is....and if you enter a pissing match over one....they don't plead the fifth...they plead 'no-speakie-English' [cos it suits them to] and simply ignore you....
Very true. I have prints of my work being actually sold on several Russian sites so you have no argument from me with this statement. I think there is a concern about the Dreams policy opening the flood gates by allowing people to upload other peoples work in a situation that admittedly is almost impossible to completely monitor and not expect the same to spill over into other galleries which until now seemed to contain original work only. The incidents with the various walls mentioned in this thread would seem to indicate that that was the case and has raised red flags to many with very justifiable concern IMHO.
PoSmedley
Reply #146 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:15 AM
Reply #146 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:15 AM
And in reference to my question...
How do you break it down between 'registered user downloads' and 'anonymous user downloads' (which is much higher on average)? Is the priority here to just attract traffic? Is the site focusing on 'quantity' in visitors as well, over registered users/customers?
So, who does the site consider it's priority? Artists and posters? Downloaders and readers? -
How do you break it down between 'registered user downloads' and 'anonymous user downloads' (which is much higher on average)? Is the priority here to just attract traffic? Is the site focusing on 'quantity' in visitors as well, over registered users/customers?
NightTrainthedark
Reply #147 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:21 AM
Reply #147 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:21 AM
Existentialism rules can go the other way where it doesn't seem like aiding and abetting.
Sure, the uploader isn't profiting from the work they stole but Stardock does when that person purchases software or a subscripiton because they are allowed to steel others work and upload it here. As well as people purchasing software to use those skins.
Enlightened self interest!
Sure, the uploader isn't profiting from the work they stole but Stardock does when that person purchases software or a subscripiton because they are allowed to steel others work and upload it here. As well as people purchasing software to use those skins.
Enlightened self interest!
Jafo
Reply #148 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:26 AM
Reply #148 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:26 AM
It's the wink at the end of that statement that bother's me, not that I am implying you meant anything by it.
Po...you must have noticed by now.... is my common smilie....use it all the time.
To me it's friendly/light hearted...better than... 
which is so agro....
I 'try' NOT to use ... 
.... cos it scares the kiddies....
Biggest worry is when there's none....usually means I'm annoyed/distracted...and can't be buggered to use one....[Aussie phrase, that]...
Jafo
Reply #149 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:31 AM
Reply #149 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:31 AM
because they are allowed to steel others work and upload it here.
Night Train ....No.
They are NOT 'allowed'...it's just that sometimes they DO...until such time as the issue is resolved through it being brought to our attention [assuming we missed it on upload]....
vStyler
Reply #150 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:32 AM
I think deep down inside you probably know the answer. There is little room in business for compassion.
More smilies would be a definate boon for the forums
Reply #150 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:32 AM
Is the priority here to just attract traffic? Is the site focusing on 'quantity' in visitors as well, over registered users/customers?
I think deep down inside you probably know the answer. There is little room in business for compassion.
More smilies would be a definate boon for the forums
PoSmedley
Reply #151 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:35 AM
I do. That was why I said I wasn't implying you meant anything by it. It was more the coincidental use of it under the circumstances.
And just so my question doesn't get lost since we've progressed to a new page...
Reply #151 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:35 AM
Po...you must have noticed by now.... is my common smilie....use it all the time.
is my common smilie....use it all the time.I do. That was why I said I wasn't implying you meant anything by it. It was more the coincidental use of it under the circumstances.
And just so my question doesn't get lost since we've progressed to a new page...
And in reference to my question...
So, who does the site consider it's priority? Artists and posters? Downloaders and readers? -
How do you break it down between 'registered user downloads' and 'anonymous user downloads' (which is much higher on average)? Is the priority here to just attract traffic? Is the site focusing on 'quantity' in visitors as well, over registered users/customers?
So, who does the site consider it's priority? Artists and posters? Downloaders and readers? -
How do you break it down between 'registered user downloads' and 'anonymous user downloads' (which is much higher on average)? Is the priority here to just attract traffic? Is the site focusing on 'quantity' in visitors as well, over registered users/customers?
Zoomba
Reply #152 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:50 AM
Reply #152 Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:50 AM
So, who does the site consider it's priority? Artists and posters? Downloaders and readers? -
One of the driving goals now is to be more welcoming to new artists and new users. It's a simple fact that over time, community members will drop off. Skinners get bored, move on, get hired etc. The community we had in 2001 isn't the same we have now, some names have left, others have joined up. It's time again to start growing the community.
We've learned a lot from sites like DeviantArt and Customize.org, both by viewing their successes and their mistakes. We don't want to be either site, since part of our appeal is by not being a complete free-for-all, but we are able to recognize some of our own failings. We could do more to invite in new people.
Obviously, registered users are more important to us than anonymous users. They're repeats, they're the ones who come back, the ones who may get involved on the forums, who may themselves eventually become skinners. And the site serves two distinct and important audiences: artists who create the work, and users who download and use it. The first step to reach out to both audiences is to make the place more welcoming and friendly. Our biggest hurdle to overcome in recent years has been the overwhelmingly negative reputation the site has built up. We're seen as elitist, as unfriendly, and as unwelcoming to new users. 2007 is a big year for changing that, and we're trying to start at the top with policy and changes to the site.
We want to encourage registered users to stick around more, and convince anonymous users that this is a worthwhile site to join up and become a regular at.
This doesn't mean we're shoving the current community out the door. Creating a more friendly and welcoming environment benefits everyone, from the oldest to the newest user or artist.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #153 Thursday, April 5, 2007 11:01 AM
There are many of us that honestly feel that is what is happening. I do not speak for myself. 5 other long time skinners have expressed their feelings to me and they DO feel this way.
Reply #153 Thursday, April 5, 2007 11:01 AM
This doesn't mean we're shoving the current community out the door.
There are many of us that honestly feel that is what is happening. I do not speak for myself. 5 other long time skinners have expressed their feelings to me and they DO feel this way.
PoSmedley
Reply #154 Thursday, April 5, 2007 11:17 AM
Some leave because of the very issues discussed here, as well.
Will they? If their stuff is being buried in with things that are borrowed/ripped/pasted etc,. ? This is what I started out with and a lot have chimed in in agreement.
I 'understand' what you are saying and what the site wants to do. But at what cost? Loosing a few skinners? Not having as many join because they don't want to get lost in the 'crap' they may have to compete with that is not original work but reposted, borrowed, or just 'unverified' as a rip?
I think a lot of sites are seen that way. I think it si mostly because they have established community's and people assume they are elitists because of the familiarity between the members or they just feel like they have to struggle to find their niche or group of peers they relate to. From WC, to DA, to a small site like SA where the members are very close.
Whom are we welcoming when the standards are loosened or lowered to allow work that normally wouldn't have made it through before and the site has to lower it's own expectations in order to allow this work in?
'The finest collection of Wallpapers on the Internet!'
Sigh. I would still love it if the work in question had it's own gallery. Or the option of it's own category with the ability to block it when viewing. What the site wants to do, I understand. At what cost or how the site goes about it, I may never understand. But for current members, customers, and artists...I would venture to say that the majority didn't join to view and download that kind of stuff. Putting the work in question in it's own place (or even the personal gallery of the uploader) would go further in welcoming new users and assuring current ones that 'Yes, we are taking these steps for these reasons...but we are also preserving the integrity of the site and our loyalty to it's registered members/customers and users'.
I suppose the only argument I hve to help me make my point is that I haven't seen anyone in this thread state that they would have a problem if the non-skinner/borrowed etc., work was separated from original work.
Reply #154 Thursday, April 5, 2007 11:17 AM
It's a simple fact that over time, community members will drop off. Skinners get bored, move on, get hired etc.
Some leave because of the very issues discussed here, as well.
They're repeats, they're the ones who come back, the ones who may get involved on the forums, who may themselves eventually become skinners.
Will they? If their stuff is being buried in with things that are borrowed/ripped/pasted etc,. ? This is what I started out with and a lot have chimed in in agreement.
I 'understand' what you are saying and what the site wants to do. But at what cost? Loosing a few skinners? Not having as many join because they don't want to get lost in the 'crap' they may have to compete with that is not original work but reposted, borrowed, or just 'unverified' as a rip?
We're seen as elitist, as unfriendly, and as unwelcoming to new users.
I think a lot of sites are seen that way. I think it si mostly because they have established community's and people assume they are elitists because of the familiarity between the members or they just feel like they have to struggle to find their niche or group of peers they relate to. From WC, to DA, to a small site like SA where the members are very close.
Whom are we welcoming when the standards are loosened or lowered to allow work that normally wouldn't have made it through before and the site has to lower it's own expectations in order to allow this work in?
'The finest collection of Wallpapers on the Internet!'
Sigh. I would still love it if the work in question had it's own gallery. Or the option of it's own category with the ability to block it when viewing. What the site wants to do, I understand. At what cost or how the site goes about it, I may never understand. But for current members, customers, and artists...I would venture to say that the majority didn't join to view and download that kind of stuff. Putting the work in question in it's own place (or even the personal gallery of the uploader) would go further in welcoming new users and assuring current ones that 'Yes, we are taking these steps for these reasons...but we are also preserving the integrity of the site and our loyalty to it's registered members/customers and users'.
I suppose the only argument I hve to help me make my point is that I haven't seen anyone in this thread state that they would have a problem if the non-skinner/borrowed etc., work was separated from original work.
vStyler
Reply #155 Thursday, April 5, 2007 11:22 AM
SO much of this reminds me of ThemeXP, It went from having all the best VS authors at the beginning, as they tried to increase traffic by loosening the guidlines for submissions the site got progressively worse very quickly as all the good core artists splintered off to smaller communites.
Yes it's important to have content, necessitous, and I know ThemeXP was a completely different business model but the same applies to any community. New people are not going to want to subscribe for a large collection of lower quality art. You start letting trash in and suddenly you look around and your surrounded by trash. It's been happening in communities and neighborhoods since the beginning of time. I am personally for more visitors as it will benefit me directly but imo, as they say...you should be careful what you ask for.
Reply #155 Thursday, April 5, 2007 11:22 AM
2007 is a big year for changing that, and we're trying to start at the top with policy and changes to the site.
SO much of this reminds me of ThemeXP, It went from having all the best VS authors at the beginning, as they tried to increase traffic by loosening the guidlines for submissions the site got progressively worse very quickly as all the good core artists splintered off to smaller communites.
Yes it's important to have content, necessitous, and I know ThemeXP was a completely different business model but the same applies to any community. New people are not going to want to subscribe for a large collection of lower quality art. You start letting trash in and suddenly you look around and your surrounded by trash. It's been happening in communities and neighborhoods since the beginning of time. I am personally for more visitors as it will benefit me directly but imo, as they say...you should be careful what you ask for.
Jafo
Reply #156 Thursday, April 5, 2007 11:31 AM
Reply #156 Thursday, April 5, 2007 11:31 AM
Not having as many join because they don't want to get lost in the 'crap' they may have to compete with that is not original work but reposted, borrowed, or just 'unverified' as a rip?
Nothing has changed...that has always been the case...though in the site's beginning there were far fewer people.
Compared with Devart....nothing here is really buried/lost at all....Devart will always win the rip-to-real-ratio over Wincustomize....
PoSmedley
Reply #157 Thursday, April 5, 2007 11:35 AM
Reply #157 Thursday, April 5, 2007 11:35 AM
My post #154 is important, IMHO and I hope you (mods, admins) read it. I want to add one other thing.
Tying into all this with the 'personal gallery issue'. As frustrated as I would get at having a wall rejected, I tried to accept it and believe i did 99% of the time. (if not 100% with some mild whining lol)
You changed your guidelines. Having something sent to the personal gallery is one thing. I will consider that a rejection. It's fine. But now, I have to wonder what gets through that may have not met your standards before. Standards I had some confidence in. Opinions I had some respect for, even if I didn't agree. Now, it seems the 'bar' has been lowered. Personally, for me, it will have me second guessing my own work instead of going back and rethinking what once might have been rejected. I liked that I was 'pushed' once in a while. It's like someone you look up to saying, 'You can do better.'. This takes that away, a little bit. It diminishes the challenge that you don't have at DA that I would go as far to say, the challenge is what drew and/or draws some people here. No disrespect intended, but it sucks.
And I feel sorry for those that may want the same thing and now won't get it, and for those that will have to weed through some of the crap to find the stuff they were looking for when they came here.
To everyone else, I apologize if any of that crap turns out to be mine.
But compared to WC just in the past year, it's getting buried more than it used to.
Tying into all this with the 'personal gallery issue'. As frustrated as I would get at having a wall rejected, I tried to accept it and believe i did 99% of the time. (if not 100% with some mild whining lol)
You changed your guidelines. Having something sent to the personal gallery is one thing. I will consider that a rejection. It's fine. But now, I have to wonder what gets through that may have not met your standards before. Standards I had some confidence in. Opinions I had some respect for, even if I didn't agree. Now, it seems the 'bar' has been lowered. Personally, for me, it will have me second guessing my own work instead of going back and rethinking what once might have been rejected. I liked that I was 'pushed' once in a while. It's like someone you look up to saying, 'You can do better.'. This takes that away, a little bit. It diminishes the challenge that you don't have at DA that I would go as far to say, the challenge is what drew and/or draws some people here. No disrespect intended, but it sucks.
And I feel sorry for those that may want the same thing and now won't get it, and for those that will have to weed through some of the crap to find the stuff they were looking for when they came here.
To everyone else, I apologize if any of that crap turns out to be mine.
Compared with Devart....nothing here is really buried/lost at all....Devart will always win the rip-to-real-ratio over Wincustomize..
But compared to WC just in the past year, it's getting buried more than it used to.
Jafo
Reply #158 Thursday, April 5, 2007 12:02 PM
Reply #158 Thursday, April 5, 2007 12:02 PM
Po...not everyone takes modding/criticism as well as you do. There have been countless times people have said of my modding...."what right have you, some snotty teenager to decide whether my works are good or bad?"...and when you explain you started in graphics 30 or 40 years ago they say "so what?", and leave.
I, too would like to see 'finer art'...but the gallery is about wallpapers, not 'art' per se.... and it's not MY site....it's OUR site, and collectively what we are trying to do is to improve the enjoyment factor...at the expense of the smarmy "look at me...ain't I fantastic!" that was to a degree prevalent....
vStyler
Reply #159 Thursday, April 5, 2007 12:14 PM
just for the record, I never got that impression about WC even WAY back, I was impressed and the work that i saw here motivated me to push harder and become a better skinner. A lot of the reason I didn't start making WBs long before was I was pushing myself to be as good before I showed my face. I didn't think of the community or anyone of the authors here as elitest. Your not going to lose skinners by lowering standards for the masses, more likely imo to lose the users.. the ad clickers and subscription buyers...the masses..I would venture that people in general would be more attracted to a library of quality skins than 10 libraries of inferior ones. Does anyone know anyone who wouldn't be?
Sounds like a poll.
Reply #159 Thursday, April 5, 2007 12:14 PM
at the expense of the smarmy "look at me...ain't I fantastic!"
just for the record, I never got that impression about WC even WAY back, I was impressed and the work that i saw here motivated me to push harder and become a better skinner. A lot of the reason I didn't start making WBs long before was I was pushing myself to be as good before I showed my face. I didn't think of the community or anyone of the authors here as elitest. Your not going to lose skinners by lowering standards for the masses, more likely imo to lose the users.. the ad clickers and subscription buyers...the masses..I would venture that people in general would be more attracted to a library of quality skins than 10 libraries of inferior ones. Does anyone know anyone who wouldn't be?
Sounds like a poll.
PoSmedley
Reply #160 Thursday, April 5, 2007 12:15 PM
That's my point. The challenge of being able to have your work posted here. I know my stuff isn't 'great', but there was a degree of satisfaction when the mods put it through. You don't get that on a free-for-all site. Now, the 'bar' is lowered, as well as the level of satisfaction I would get. Yes, it's me talking personally. But I think...and I know I have seen it expressed...a lot of the artists feel the same way as far as the 'challenge'.
I'm not talking about 'fine' art. I'm talking about the things that are non-skinner works, reposts, cut and pastes, ports, etc. , being seperated from originl work by original authors.
If my gloating or reveling in one of my walls having passed moderation makes me an elitist, then I guess I am. 'Elitist' isn't always a dirty word.
Reply #160 Thursday, April 5, 2007 12:15 PM
.at the expense of the smarmy "look at me...ain't I fantastic!" that was to a degree prevalent....
That's my point. The challenge of being able to have your work posted here. I know my stuff isn't 'great', but there was a degree of satisfaction when the mods put it through. You don't get that on a free-for-all site. Now, the 'bar' is lowered, as well as the level of satisfaction I would get. Yes, it's me talking personally. But I think...and I know I have seen it expressed...a lot of the artists feel the same way as far as the 'challenge'.
I'm not talking about 'fine' art. I'm talking about the things that are non-skinner works, reposts, cut and pastes, ports, etc. , being seperated from originl work by original authors.
If my gloating or reveling in one of my walls having passed moderation makes me an elitist, then I guess I am. 'Elitist' isn't always a dirty word.
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Reply #141 Thursday, April 5, 2007 9:42 AM
I'm sorry about that Po, I was confused at the time over what was going on and didn't understand what you were linking. That was my fault.
There are also bugs at the moment with moderation that is causing some walls that should be personal page only items to show up in the main gallery. It's not consistent or easily reproducable so it's been hard to track down. It is being worked on though.