Leave and NEVER come back.
Those who would impose their wills on us are not welcome here
Friday, March 2, 2007 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
WinCustomize is a PG-13 site. It is also a site where people are encouraged to discuss issues on skinning and customization in an open environment.
But over the past few yeras, I've watched WinCustomize's forums degrade from being the central point in the skinning community for discussion of skins and themes to being a monolithic forum filled with self-appointed elites who stifle contrarian thoughts and opinions through bullying and intimidation.
That ends now. When we launched WC2K7, I made clear that I would be stepping in to put an end to the rank elitism that permeates the forums from time to time.
To those who would attack, insult, or demean others for having different points of view I say leave and NEVER come back. To those who use the arguemnt "This is a family site" as a shield to impose their own brand of tyranny you are not welcome here.
This site is not designed for people who are under the age of 13. We are not catering to children. We are catering to adults but allow people who are 13 and over. We allow people to discuss and disagree issues.
An incident occurred in this thread that provides an opportunity for us to make clear that those who would try to bury discussion with threats will not longer be welcome here.
For too long, people have used the threat of removing their works to crush disent to their opinions. When someone threatens to take their creations and leave the discussion always changes from what was being discussed to trying to convince the offended to stay. Over time, this has resulted in a great loss in diversity of thought and discussion on this site.
What this community does not need are a handful of self-appointed elitists trying to force their points of view down the throats of others.
This is a COMMUNITY site. It is not a site for snobby, self important elites who get kicks out of trying to bully others and impose their wills on others.
To any skinner or user woh has a problem with this. Leave and never come back. Remove your things and GO. GO NOW and never ever return.
From here on, if I see someone trying to force their opinion or end a discussion they disagree with by threatening to remove their creations and leave, I will force the issue. I will exile them and have their works deleted from this site.
We want a community where people feel comfortable discussing any issue that relates to skinning and customization without fear of reprisal, personal attack, or intimidation.
If someone disagrees with a policy of the site, a decision of the moderators, or has a problem with a user, let it be discussed civily and openly without someone commanding others to adhere to their demands lest they take their things and go. Because that time is over now.
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Reply #22 Friday, March 2, 2007 4:01 PM
Please.
People who threaten to take their works and leave aren't trying to voice a concern. They know precisely what they are doing -- they have decided for everyone else that discussion has come to an end and that the "less valuable" people must abide by their commands.
I've seen it countless times in the past. Something will be posted to the gallery or to the forum that someone doesn't like. There will be a discussion about it and then someone will say "Change it or I'm going to leave and take my stuff with me" and then the discussion turns into "Please don't go, admins, do as he/she asks because it's not worth losing this valuable member."
That is not right. the rights of people to have a calm and mature discussion in our community supercedes the "value" of any individual member of the community.
All I'm doing is taking away the threat weapon from those who would abuse their standing in the community to coerce others into obeying them.
No one is forced to submit their things here and they do not have to keep their things here. Their works belong to them. But at the same time, we can choose not to allow those individuals on our site if we think they are doing harm to the community.
Skinners are not slaves. By the same token, we are not their slaves either.
Reply #23 Friday, March 2, 2007 4:04 PM
I have 3 children. My 10 year old son is on this site.
http://alexwardell.wincustomize.com/
The issue is not about what is and isn't appropriate to be posted on the site. The issue is whether "valuable members" of the community should be allowed to end reasonable discussion on what the community will or won't allow posted by threatening to leave and hence change the topic to people wanting to capiulate to those users to keep them from leaving regardless of the merits of their position.
Reply #24 Friday, March 2, 2007 4:10 PM
That is the most ridiculous concept I have ever heard of and one that is tossed around way to much. If every place/site/country/whatever was run that way there would be nothing...well...nothing. Imagine if all it took was one offended person to remove a something? Imagine something that you value being removed from a place where you value having it, just because ONE person said that they were offended? And, imagine that they did so without full knowledge of the origin of this thing or the thinking behind it, sort of like people who criticize a book or movie they have never seem. Finally, imagine that even after they were told that their impressions were wrong, they insisted (even louder) that it be removed anyway because now they don't want to admit they were mistaken. That kind of thinking and the actions that follow from it are selfish, immature, dangerous to the community, and in the end, intolerable.
I fully support and admire the owner of WC and the decision he was forced to make.
Reply #26 Friday, March 2, 2007 4:32 PM
I didn't see the wall in question but that's not really the issue Brad's addressing anyway. I'm sure he doesn't really want the Wood's to leave but that was their choice.
To make unwarrented assumptions regarding whether or not Brad (or any of the rest of us) have children is simply foolish and arrogant as far as I'm concerned. Likewise the comment made in the original thread suggesting dissenters haven't been molested and therefore don't know (implying they have no right to an opinion). Not all of us who've been molested carry a flag (or a chip for that matter).
I've gone on longer than I intended to. Simply, discuss and agree or disagree but apparently if you leave in a snit, the door stays shut behind you.
Reply #27 Friday, March 2, 2007 4:48 PM
I remember the day when this site use to be fun.
This ain't fun no more though, but I'm not packing up because I love this community it has always been run with good taste.
It's just way too much bitching about nothing and I haven't seen this much sensitivity and bruised egos since Michael Jackson. I mean maybe a tall glass of Cranberry Juice is in order here?
People please; enough said about this crap, you are forgetting why we gather here in the first place. If Frogboy closes WC down because of this sudden and obviously unwarranted ridicule, where are you going to go? Skinartistry? Deviantart? Skinbase? No! Why? Because there is no place on this earth where everyone is going to agree with you, it doesn't exist, so get over yourselves for crying out loud!! Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn people!
The hell with you, I'm not the one that's packing my bags because I'm butt hurt. Arrogance? No arrogance personified!
So do what you have to do and please do it quietly so we that are remaining can go on with our lives. I'm through listening to these petty childish hissy fits and I'll be damned if you are going to make me feel bad for being here just because you do.
Your three options as a member of the human race are 1. get real, 2. get over it or 3. get a life!
I'm going back to having a good time and exchanging neat stuff with good people with the same interests and fun loving attitudes.
Reply #28 Friday, March 2, 2007 5:26 PM
Wikipedia goes onto to say "is a popular Japanese idol and model who typically aims for the cute, innocent schoolgirl look.".
This was just a little of the info I found on the 'model' yesterday and posted in the thread. My other concern was that I was unable to find 'that' particular wall of her and it resembled several other models I did come across. It would have been helpful if the author could have provided a 'source' for the material..or 'credit' for the site he got it from. Perhaps it is out there somewhere and I missed it, I honestly don't know.
In searching, it became clear that the innocent schoolgirl look is quite in demand with the Japanese market and even clearer that a lot of it was questionable as to the age of the models. As a parent, the SS made me uncomfortable. It was in poor taste, IMHO, and had no 'artistic' merit other than to entice and excite in a sexual manner, again IMHO. The focus wasn't even good enough to be able for me to say for sure that it was the model in question and not a minor or anyone else for that matter, once again IMHO.
I hate what happened yesterday. I hate I almost lost a friend because it all got so heated. I hate that anyone involved in that mess was banned, even if it had included the SS author.
I don't know where I am going with this. I guess I just want to say that I am pretty stunned by what happened and the final outcome and not sure if that there is a right or wrong side when you break it all down. This is one of those times where I wish we could just get a 'do-over'.
Reply #29 Friday, March 2, 2007 6:29 PM
Reply #30 Friday, March 2, 2007 6:41 PM
I made my decision known only to the admins..
I removed my work not because I didn't get my way, but because I truly, honestly believe that one should err on the side of caution where a picture of a real person looks way too much like a minor. Never did I say "do what I want or I'll pack up and go home". That's not how I operate. My reason was and is, that the fact that this looked like a child, or could be mistaken for a child, did not seem to be considered....where if it were a blind that looked way to much like something else...it is carefully gone over. Never once did I , or would I say "ban all cheesecake shots"..
I was not and am not whining, am not arrogant or full of myself. I am not on a soapbox, carrying a flag or a chip. I was concerned. I am concerned. I did what was right for me.
Reply #31 Friday, March 2, 2007 7:00 PM
I made my decision known only to the admins..
I removed my work not because I didn't get my way, but because I truly, honestly believe that one should err on the side of caution where a picture of a real person looks way too much like a minor. Never did I say "do what I want or I'll pack up and go home". That's not how I operate. My reason was and is, that the fact that this looked like a child, or could be mistaken for a child, did not seem to be considered....where if it were a blind that looked way to much like something else...it is carefully gone over. Never once did I , or would I say "ban all cheesecake shots"..
I was not and am not whining, am not arrogant or full of myself. I am not on a soapbox, carrying a flag or a chip. I was concerned. I am concerned. I did what was right for me.
Very well. And as you said elsewhere, you cannot "support a site" that doesn't instantly do what you feel it should do.
Farewell.
Reply #32 Friday, March 2, 2007 7:04 PM
Wasn't referring to you, Boopish. Sorry to see you go, though.
Reply #33 Friday, March 2, 2007 7:16 PM
Does it make me a bad parent, or mean that I'm not doing enough to protect them if I don't have a problem with a model who looks relatively young posing suggestively? If it does I'd love to hear the reasons. See, I like to think I haven't fallen into the trap of blindly assuming that something is dangerous or wrong when I'm presented with something as loosely connected to 'paedophilia' as this is. Enlighten me, please, for the sake of my children!
Reply #34 Friday, March 2, 2007 7:44 PM
Incidentally this is what the screenshot looked like:
And these are comments by people claiming to be part of our community:
CLWoods: This is the most disgusting and perverted thing I have seen on this site. You should be ashamed of yourself. I have a grand daughter about that age. People like you make me shutter. I will hold off on "getting over" it until there are no more perverts, rapists and pedophiles in the world.
The screenshot woudln't have been allowed by me because it violates the rule of havign too much of the wallpaper shown in the screenshot. But otherwise, it would be allowed.
But the image isn't the issue. It's the intolerant behavior by self-appointed elites who feel they have a right to demand their way without any other points of view being considered.
The only reason people pull the "I'm going to pull my work" nonsense here is because it has worked in the past -- people will placate those users and the bully gets their way.
As was pointed out, CLWoods has an active account on deviantART which has content that is vastly more...controversal. Why? Because people know that dA won't censor people's stuff just because "valuable" people complain.
Don't give in to threats or bullying.
Reply #35 Friday, March 2, 2007 7:53 PM
When there were comments about the elitism here I was either blind to it or wasn't looking for it. But I think I understand now (just hope I'm not unknowingly part of it).
Reply #36 Friday, March 2, 2007 7:55 PM
For me, personally, it makes me uncomfortable. As i stated in #28, I couldn't verify that the model was who the author said it was and the author didn't offer any way to do so. Then you have this....
US court legalises virtual paedophilia, 16 April, 2002
The US Supreme Court has overthrown a congressional ban on virtual paedophilia. It ruled the First Amendment protects pornography or other sexual images that only appear to depict real children engaged in sex. The judgment is a victory for both pornographers and legitimate artists such as filmmakers. They argued that a broad ban on simulated child sex could make it a crime to depict a sex scene like those in the recent movies Traffic or Lolita. The law was challenged by a trade association for pornographers.
So, I start to wonder exactly what we are seeing here. Then add in that the model's latest DVD is called POPO PORN. I have been unable to find the translation or meaning of this title. I will offer that I tried to ask the owner of a japanese Take out place tonight and she just said she didn't want to tell me, but it was bad, and she wouldn't eloborate. And given that, she MAY be wrong. I don't know.
So you have images available that are 'legal' thanks to the supreme court, and granted, this one depicted no nudity or sexual acts...and a DVD title that just seems too much when you factor in the image and the Wikipedia definition/offering on this model (#28) and I, personally, was unable to verify the pic was who it was claimed to be. I guess I am apprehensive as well as uncomfortable.
if you are curious about the proliferation of the 'schoolgirl' craze...Google 'schoolgirl'...
Schoolgirl uniform fetish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A schoolgirl uniform fetish is a sexual fetish in which someone enjoys dressing in ... The schoolgirl uniform fetish is common in both Japanese and Western ...
Anime Schoolgirl - Stardoll - Your paperdoll heaven
MTV Asia Schoolgirl Panties at Kontraband
These are the 3,4, and 5th entries you will find.
Google it under images and you will see just how popular it is and realize that there must be a great demand for it to be so much of it, and a lot of it goes beyond the SS. Turn off any filters you have or the adult block and you will really get an eyeful.
So, I feel there was some legitimate cause for concern. How would you feel knowing your neighbor or co-worker were looking at these kinds of things or that they were a 'turn on' for them? Would you want them around your kids? Would you want to promote thses kinds of images or any image that depicted young girls or mature girls portraying young girls in a less than innocent manner?
Finally, as a new father with a 5 week old daughter, I guess my views on things are changing, maturing, or whatever. But, I have to ask if I would want her posing like that and having it plastered on desktops everywhere. If I had that wall on my desktop, I would have no argument if she chose to do it, would I?
This is just my opinion. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or criticize yours, I'm just trying to explain, like you asked.
Reply #37 Friday, March 2, 2007 8:18 PM
The gist was that in Japan, the image of the young girl, particularly the schoolgirl, is idolized. Even grown women will dress themselves to look the part and, more interesting, go out of their way to act like a schoolgirl. (ie: silly, chatty, etc...)
This is considered to make a woman more attractive and desirable.
In contrast the Western culture tends to take younger girls and make them look older. Clothing, make-up, music, are all marketed to young girls to make them look and act older. (I have two boys, but friends of mine raising girls tell me it is almost impossible to find age-appropriate clothing.)
In both cases the image of youth is elevated, but where the Western culture tries to make a younger girl look and act older/sexier, the Japanese culture strives to have women of all ages look and act like young school-age girls.
From what I read in the other thread, the original poster of the SS is of Japanese origin, and doesn't find anything offensive about it.
While this has little to do with people leaving this site, it does shed some light on the different cultural viewpoints.
Reply #38 Friday, March 2, 2007 8:40 PM
Reply #39 Friday, March 2, 2007 8:42 PM
I do understand, but the fact of the matter is that these pictures aren't the source of the problem. If there weren't a demand in the first place, there wouldn't be as many images as the ones you described. While I'm sure I wouldn't feel entirely comfortable if someone in close proximity to my family looked at 'schoolgirl fetish' pictures, it's no reason to project my own fear on to them. Personally, I think it's unfair to judge someone negatively if I don't understand the reasons behind their actions, and there could be many psychological reasons, considering most of our sexual development happens throughout our youth / school years. At any rate, I don't think that someone looking at pictures such as these is reason enough to think that they're a danger to my children, and I can't see any logical reason why I should.. especially when the 'problem' is as widespread as it is.
Reply #40 Friday, March 2, 2007 9:08 PM
Yes, I guess I am projecting my fears. I feel these pictures can be a source to the overall problem mentioned, outside of the screenshot issue. If I put it on my desktop I am telling my family and daughter that it is okay. If she decides to pose like that for boys, the web, I have lost any argument I would have with her. I would be telling my son it is okay to view girls in such a way. All of this, without still knowing for sure that this girl is who she is supposed to be or of age.
I argue with my wife that she is over protective. Then I see the weekly Dateline installments and how my niece talks on messenger and wants to post pics on MYSpace. I think my fears are real and valid.
As for what is a danger to my children or who is...I check the recall sites everyday to see if I haven't bought something that is going to grab my baby's throat and choke her. And I don't want to be the one on the six o'clock news saying 'He's lived next door to us for 5 years and always seemed so harmless and nice'.
Maybe we are at 2 different ends of the spectrum and I will allow I may be over protective or whatever...but I haven't seen a lot of things happening in the world lately to tell me that I am wrong to be afraid for my child or anyone elses. Sometimes all we have is vigilance and gut instinct.
Without judging the author in any way, my only question concerned the SS and what it may potentially be saying about what is appropriate and what is being said on a whole. I originally tols the author that I liked his SS set-up but that he could have chosen a less 'controversial' pose of this actress/model.
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Reply #21 Friday, March 2, 2007 3:52 PM
I truly am sorry that you are so offended by my concern.
I think you have every right to voice your concern.
Where I draw the line is when someone says "IF the site doesn't do as I say, then I am removing my stuff and leaving."
Because that statement completely changes the discussion. Look back in that thread and you have people saying "This screenshot isn't worth losing 2 or 3 of our valuable members."
In other words, when someone threatens to take their stuff and leave, it ends open discussion. People instead want to capitulate in order to placate "valuable members".
I'd close the site before I'd allow it to become a place where only "valuable members" get to have a say on how the site is run.