Leave and NEVER come back.

Those who would impose their wills on us are not welcome here

Friday, March 2, 2007 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk

WinCustomize is a PG-13 site.  It is also a site where people are encouraged to discuss issues on skinning and customization in an open environment.

But over the past few yeras, I've watched WinCustomize's forums degrade from being the central point in the skinning community for discussion of skins and themes to being a monolithic forum filled with self-appointed elites who stifle contrarian thoughts and opinions through bullying and intimidation.

That ends now.  When we launched WC2K7, I made clear that I would be stepping in to put an end to the rank elitism that permeates the forums from time to time.

To those who would attack, insult, or demean others for having different points of view I say leave and NEVER come back.  To those who use the arguemnt "This is a family site" as a shield to impose their own brand of tyranny you are not welcome here.

This site is not designed for people who are under the age of 13.  We are not catering to children. We are catering to adults but allow people who are 13 and over.  We allow people to discuss and disagree issues. 

An incident occurred in this thread that provides an opportunity for us to make clear that those who would try to bury discussion with threats will not longer be welcome here.

For too long, people have used the threat of removing their works to crush disent to their opinions. When someone threatens to take their creations and leave the discussion always changes from what was being discussed to trying to convince the offended to stay.  Over time, this has resulted in a great loss in diversity of thought and discussion on this site.

What this community does not need are a handful of self-appointed elitists trying to force their points of view down the throats of others. 

This is a COMMUNITY site. It is not a site for snobby, self important elites who get kicks out of trying to bully others and impose their wills on others.

To any skinner or user woh has a problem with this. Leave and never come back. Remove your things and GO. GO NOW and never ever return.

From here on, if I see someone trying to force their opinion or end a discussion they disagree with by threatening to remove their creations and leave, I will force the issue. I will exile them and have their works deleted from this site. 

We want a community where people feel comfortable discussing any issue that relates to skinning and customization without fear of reprisal, personal attack, or intimidation. 

If someone disagrees with a policy of the site, a decision of the moderators, or has a problem with a user, let it be discussed civily and openly without someone commanding others to adhere to their demands lest they take their things and go.  Because that time is over now.

 

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SKoriginals
Reply #1 Friday, March 2, 2007 12:49 PM
This is your site Frogboy and you should be able to have it run anyway you feel. Personally I see nothing wrong with what was 'posted' but thats me. People take offense to alot of various things and there is no way to please everyone. It like they used to say about TV.. if you don't like it turn the channel.

Chasbo
Reply #2 Friday, March 2, 2007 1:05 PM
Hear! Hear! Frogboy! I agree. There is a middle ground of taste and I don't see any problem with what was posted either SK. There's some programs on prime time TV that show worse stuff than most anything I've seen here. I'm all grown up and I don't mind a little "cheese cake" every now and then! There is a difference between out and out porno and a little skin!

Frogboy
Reply #3 Friday, March 2, 2007 1:16 PM

We want to have a community site in which people are free to *discuss* issues that concern them without some self-appointed elite threatening to "take their stuff and leave" if the rest of the community doesn't capitulate immediately to their demands.

As I visit other sites, one thing that comes up regularly when the subject of WinCustomize.com is how they left the site because of the elitism.  So for every elite who threatens to take their stuff and  leave if we don't conform to their demands, we lose several people who don't comment who are disgusted with the elitist attitude prevalent in the forums.

The moment the site allows a self-appointed elite to decide for the majority what the community should behave like, is the moment we don't have a community anymore.


MySecret
Reply #4 Friday, March 2, 2007 1:41 PM
Well I'm going to put my foot in it I do understand the concern about the wall and agree with someone standing up for what they believe in. It did not offend me nor did the one that was removed for the same reason today, I simply chose not to look closely.

There is a middle ground of taste and I don't see any problem with what was posted either SK. There's some programs on prime time TV that show worse stuff than most anything I've seen here. I'm all grown up
..

I do however agree Frogboy that elitism can not be allowed and I was one of those who wanted to comment but didn't. I really appreciate your stating that clearly and breathe a sigh of relief. I am only a customer here but enjoy the various opinions whether I agree with them or not.

It's My Secret


NightTrainthedark
Reply #5 Friday, March 2, 2007 1:44 PM
It's a blurred line between having pride in a community and being an elitist. Since forums are for expressing opinions, it isn't hard to cross the line.   

Just thinking back, not too long ago someone had a swastika for an avatar and I whined about it. Is something like that over the line?

KiloKrash
Reply #6 Friday, March 2, 2007 2:02 PM
Finally someone has spoken out against the ridiculous attempts to influence/control what the community is entitled to upload according to WinCustomize's rules/guidelines.

I for one didn't find anything wrong with the SS. You go to any beach in the world and you'll find most are dressed more provocatively and half as young as the 30 year old model in the SS.

I wanted to comment on that thread, especially after Zoomba, a Stardock employee and top Admin of WinCustomize came along informing them it had been taken down. Was that good enough for them? NO, of course not. I'm no great skinner. I've only submitted four bootskins, but I still can't stand the feeling of hesitation to speak my opinion on a subject as that without fear that I'll be labeled as a "paedophile"!

I'm just glad you've spoken up for the community...I for one thank you for that.

cplair
Reply #7 Friday, March 2, 2007 2:05 PM
If you want to play with adults then you'd better be an adult. If parents don't want their kiddies to come to WC, then they need to IMPOSE their parental controls on their respective systems and teach their children do's and don’ts at home before turning them loose! It's not only ignorance, but this alone places the blame squarely on the parent’s narrow minded stupidity.

In other words people don’t blame others because you failed to control your child!!

Bravo to Frogboy, some parents need to pull their heads out of their butts, wake the hell up and start being a parent.

I've been a WC member since 2003 and this has always been one of the most eclectic and professionally ran sites on the internet!

If parents want to bitch, they need to complain about My Space or some other crappy so called family oriented site. WC has never been risqué and is always under careful and tasteful scrutiny.

Bottom line for me is certain people just shouldn't reproduce. They need to get spayed or neutered and stop contaminating the planet with little tiny idiot clones of themselves.

There I said it. Take Frogboy’s advise, pack up your luggage and just go, we don’t want you or your sorry no value clones in here! Hook them up on “My Space” or “Chatropolis” and turn them loose without supervision with the muggers, hackers, predators and degenerates in there, please!! Those sites will give you plenty to bitch about and maybe, just maybe you will learn that WC ain’t the bad guy, when in fact it’s actually your own self inflicted ignorance and lack of parental abilities that’s the real culprit.




pinchecl
Reply #8 Friday, March 2, 2007 2:07 PM
Well, so far I haven't joined any discussion about this matter. But this reaction of a near monopolist is to MHO way out of order. If you can't stand some different opinions and expressing emotions you shouldn't run this whole thing. So what's going to be the next step? Banning me?

BONEHEADdb
Reply #9 Friday, March 2, 2007 2:10 PM
Just thinking back, not too long ago someone had a swastika for an avatar and I whined about it. Is something like that over the line?


I don't thing there are any WWII vets in the community, however a swastika IS over the line.

I.R. Brainiac
Reply #10 Friday, March 2, 2007 2:15 PM
Just thinking back, not too long ago someone had a swastika for an avatar and I whined about it. Is something like that over the line?



Craig did you threaten to pull your skins and leave over it?(apparently not thank goodness  )

Thats the whole problem with perception tho...you would think a swatika would be univerally offensive...but the symbol isnt a Nazi symbol...they just adopted it.American indians used before the Nazis.

The image that sparked this bruhaha did NOT to me look as tho she were a minor.She wasnt in pigtails sucking her thumb holding a teddy bear.My perceptions of a Japanese womans age are not colored by my caucasian expectations.

I did find the POSE a bit risque(tasteless would be a better word),she almost looks like a nature documentary where the female is 'presenting'.    

I applaud the friends who left for sticking to there beliefs...but to leave over a questionable screenshot instead of attempting to sway the site owners to see if they could eventually revise site policy...was a rash decision.

I.R. Brainiac
Reply #11 Friday, March 2, 2007 2:21 PM
A little misperception is even going on here...they didnt threaten to pull their skins if Winc was going to allow content like that...they just left.

Threatening to pull your skins to force your way however,is just silly.  

Pumakitten57
Reply #12 Friday, March 2, 2007 2:28 PM
I really don't care if you are the admin or not....this is really unprofessional and uncalled for! The concern by the parties involved were not elitist in the least! Nothing snobby about it! You don't have children, and the SS issue was a legitimate concern. I was in agreement with Cindi, Troy, and Bet. I have seen way to much in the way of elitism here and it makes me very sad. This type of attitude that you are showing here brad, with this post is VERY elitist. I try my best to not comment on things of this nature, as it has a tendency to snowball, just like the post in question.To much has been getting out of hand here. The role of Everyone in this "community" is to help and support everyone else, not laugh and demean members who ask for help or voice a concern. I know it is quite the norm to do that now. I see it alot in the forums, and from admins and mods to boot!
We want to have a community site in which people are free to *discuss* issues that concern them without some self-appointed elite threatening to "take their stuff and leave" if the rest of the community doesn't capitulate immediately to their demands.


Reread that thread from the beginning brad. I didn't see once where anyone said "If you don't remove this I'm leaving" I feel they were being reasonable with the issue and asked nicely to do something. No one demanded anything.
They left because of treatment they got in the "discussion", and for standing up for what they believe in, not because they had a tantrum. And after seeing this post and your unlocking the thread that had been locked and your posts there, makes me wonder.

A little misperception is even going on here...they didnt threaten to pull their skins if Winc was going to allow content like that...they just left.


Well, so far I haven't joined any discussion about this matter. But this reaction of a near monopolist is to MHO way out of order. If you can't stand some different opinions and expressing emotions you shouldn't run this whole thing.



boopish
Reply #13 Friday, March 2, 2007 2:34 PM
Frogboy...if this is aimed at me...I did not threaten to do something..I only told admin of my intentions. I am no prude. Did I put up a fuss when Po and Skinhit had their little war of pics? No...BECAUSE they are adults and the pics were CLEARLY adults. The same goes for most of the cheesecake shots. My only objection was that the pic LOOKED like it was of a minor! I did not try to impose my "will" on anyone, but I will stand up for what I believe in. If you saw the same numbers of exploited and abused children come thru your office as I have in the past 25 years, you too, might think a little harder when you see a pic like that.

I truly am sorry that you are so offended by my concern.

Fuzzy Logic
Reply #14 Friday, March 2, 2007 2:38 PM

Speaking as a moderator who got caught up in all that yesterday, I can say that thread is one of the most unpleasant places I've been since I came here. I know what I thought of it all - I can only imagine what someone coming here for the first time must have thought.

What is even worse is the fact people know if they have concerns about any issue they are free to contact me (or any other moderator/admin) about it. What happened yesterday was a disgrace and completely avoidable.

Skinning is a fun hobby. Sites like WinCustomize are places where people can get together and enjoy skinning and have fun doing so. It would be nice if people could remember that.


KarmaGirl
Reply #15 Friday, March 2, 2007 3:00 PM

 

I really don't care if you are the admin or not....this is really unprofessional and uncalled for! The concern by the parties involved were not elitist in the least! Nothing snobby about it! You don't have children, and the SS issue was a legitimate concern. I was in agreement with Cindi, Troy, and Bet. I have seen way to much in the way of elitism here and it makes me very sad. This type of attitude that you are showing here brad, with this post is VERY elitist.

He's not just an "admin"- he is the reason this site exists.

"You don't have children"?  Is that directed at Brad?  Because, he does have children, and one of them is female.

His attitude is elite?  You are the one coming on to a privately owned site telling the owner that they are not "professional" and are "elite"?  Think about that a bit.

I have watched this site go from a fun loving community to a bunch of great people with a few skin-thinned elitists, and it's extremely sad.  I, personally, am sick of the "This isn't right!  It has to be removed!" posts.  Has anyone ever thought about simply emailing an admin for explanation?

My only objection was that the pic LOOKED like it was of a minor! I did not try to impose my "will" on anyone, but I will stand up for what I believe in. If you saw the same numbers of exploited and abused children come thru your office as I have in the past 25 years, you too, might think a little harder when you see a pic like that.

We have this wonderful thing called the internet that allows people to research things prior to simply going on assumption.  It took me less than a minute to locate info on this model and to find out that she was in her 20s. 

 


boopish
Reply #16 Friday, March 2, 2007 3:17 PM
KarmaGirl...again, my intention was not to impose my will..I did not demand anything...the ONLY reason I tried to bring this to the attention of the mods/admin..was because the image appeared to be a minor! Period.

I have consistently tried to be a good member of this community. I have defended others rights to put up cheesecake pics of adults!! This is the first time, I believe, that I have ever endeavored to bring something to the attention of the mods or admin. If I am to be banned, then so be it.

unclerob
Reply #17 Friday, March 2, 2007 3:23 PM
I'm a little late to this soiree, what was the wall in question? Is it still up & available? If so can someone post a link? I'd like to see what all the fuss is about. If this is asking too much just say so.

I.R. Brainiac
Reply #18 Friday, March 2, 2007 3:28 PM
Perception...imagine if she were 15...but LOOKED 21...then would it be OK?...certainly not...but you cant havit both ways.
I have a sore spot when it comes to people trying to push their values on everyone,but I respect their right to voice their opinion.

I hate to lose my friends here...couldnt you guys have stuck around a bit longer and tried to work thru it?

I see Frogboys side and agree with it...he just shouldnt have accused you of threatening.

Heres hoping this all comes out ok.  

Frogboy
Reply #19 Friday, March 2, 2007 3:46 PM

Well, so far I haven't joined any discussion about this matter. But this reaction of a near monopolist is to MHO way out of order. If you can't stand some different opinions and expressing emotions you shouldn't run this whole thing. So what's going to be the next step? Banning me?

No.  The point is we WANT people to be able to have different opinions. We want an environment where people can feel free to disagree without feeling ganged up on or without someone saying "Well if you don't do as I command then I am going to take my stuff and leave"

What kind of community do people want to have? One where a small group tries to force others to agree without any discussion? 

 


Frogboy
Reply #20 Friday, March 2, 2007 3:50 PM

Just thinking back, not too long ago someone had a swastika for an avatar and I whined about it. Is something like that over the line?

I would agree with you.  But the point isn't whether I agree or not, it is that we have an atmosphere where people feel free to voice their opinions without the threat of being shouted down or being told that if you don't do as they say that they'll simply take their work and leave.

For too long I've seen people hold the community hostage with the threat of taking their things and leaving.  And that's no longer going to be permitted. As soon as I see that sort of thing, I'll help usher them out the door myself.

 


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