Fairyy~ hit it right on the head.
I'll take it one step further with a personal experience I had.

I worked at a company for 7 years. I was told by the President of the company, that I was in line to become General Region Manager. Everything was set up for the change.
The very next day, he hired a "new guy" that had never worked in the business before.
After asking the President "why?, his answer was because the new guy had college and I didn't.
I worked my a$$ off for that position and some newbie was given it instead.
Needless to say, that was my last day. It was wrong on so many levels.

I like VStyler's work. But you have to remember that Wincustomize didn't cut his legs off, so he can only make Stardock skins now. He said himself that he's made money off of creating StylesXP. There is no reason he still can't do that until he becomes a Master here.

Region Manager. Everything was set up for the change. The very next day, he hired a "new guy" that had never worked in the business before. After asking the President "why?, his answer was because the new guy had college and I didn't.

We have all seen this many times - the ' excuse ' for why they bypass a long time employee for the out of work guy. The truth usually is they got the ' new guy' for less money that they were already paying you. Its always about money.

I just wanted to add that post #120 wasn't a slam against VStyler that is an excellent skinner - my comment was meant in a general way to anyone that joins wc and is anxious to become a " Master "

I have to concur.

I used VStyler as an example because a lot of other people did.
No disrespect was intended.

I have also contributed many free skins to the customization community as a whole, including WB skins. I also don't remember mentioning "jumping ahead" of anyone, merely trying to better ascertain whether my own personal level of involvement in this process would be worth the rewards. I will say however , no matter how may posts you make or how much artwork you submitt, it's not going to help if your skins are not of master quality and its in that area that i utilize a good percentage of my time.

I don't believe in free rides, never taken one and im not looking for one here.




yes ive actually made a nice living for a few years with Visual styles... unfortunately with Vista on the scene the numbers are decreasing dramatically.

Im sure no one thought VS would be around forever eh? I have always planned on switching to WB sooner or later.

You guys should not misunderstand my intentions. As much as i love making people happy by skinning and enjoy it infinitely this is a business for me and as such I have to treat it in such a fashion. The reason I started skinning years ago was to teach myself something I could make a living at one day.

Im not opposed to increasing my level of involvement in the WC community in fact I am completely committed to it as my home away from home and have been for a while. Its one reason I finally enetered the GUIC. I also have what I would like to think of as a spectacular new skin in the works as a community release.

Having said that..I believe a man makes his own good fortune, I am currently working on a new strictly WB website launching soon and some commercial work still left on the VS side of things.




The Master skinner program has been a long time coming in my opinion and to those given status..More Power To Ya!


KEEP ON SKINNING!

oh..and no disrespect taken you guys..   

...wow...

Just a user here, no talent, cept grabbing bits an pieces of your works and combining them to get what I want.   

On the master skinner note I have to say its pretty easy to see the consumers side as a consumer and not an artist. If you pay full price your out $50.00 for OD another $10.00 for Cursor XP and another $20.00 for wincustomize membership (I didn't I have used WB off and on since 2002). Your now out $80 bucks only to come to wincustomize and find all these suites and WB that cost money. Your build list (skins and suites built within the last year as opposed to say when treetog was churning em out like a dam factory) is in the toilet, compared to the number of blinds created in 2003 to now and you see a significant drop. Add to that what you see now, fantastic suites and skins that are available but only for additional fee and your driving away the people your hoping will pay you. You cannot expect people to fork out the kind of money your asking up front and then hit them right after they step through the door with pricetags on the stuff they are most likely to want. Be reasonable, I buy this program, I go surfing for suites after looking at the rather poor offering that comes with the original download and I assure you Im not going to be too terribly interested in the 2002 WB after looking at Brainiacs, Knot Vista (which I have purchased by the way). Right away I am feeling like I got taken (and most definately not by the skinner). Sure you have tons of free skins, but if I just paid $80 I am feeling ENTITLED to some skins/suites that were made recently and are of the caliber of an $80 software purchase not a $20 dollar one.

My opinion, provide customers with some free Master skins and or premium suites say 2 or 3 (not ones you PICK, sort of defeats the whole purpose) along with all those free skins and you stand a much better chance of holding on to people. Currently I would guess (its really just a guess) that most of your support comes from within your already established community and that you lose alot more customers than you hold with your current fee structure. Its funny in a way because its the first time Ive seen a pyramid scheme used in a way that seems to be supported by those on the bottom so fervently. Unfortunately, aside from the artists who make the skins, objects, etc. The casual user has very little to gain, he or she isnt working towards something they just want NEAT EYE CANDY and $80 bucks is already at the top of a steep price to pay for eye candy.


To the skinners great job and goodluck I will be browsing your wares. To Stardock, your really not doing yourself or me any favors and frankly I really hope you rethink your approach.

This is such an old, tired argument that's been argued to death...but I feel compelled to reply. To be honest, the Master skins have been and will continue to be a success. It's only fair these Masters are allowed to be compensated for their hard work and contributions to the community. Would you like to put in hours and hours of work for free? I think not.

And to use an analogy that's been used several times....just because you buy a computer doesn't mean you get all the software for free, or buying a car doesn't entitle you to all the free gas you want. It just doesn't work that way, such is life.

Fact of the matter is, the Master skins are here to stay, get used to it, get over it. So far it seems the only people who have been complaining are the ones not willing to pay for these master quality skins, or have a "I want it all for free" entitlement complex.

As Brad has said...if you're the type to complain about a piddly $5 for a Master skin, then don't buy it, you're not the target audience anyway.

Nobody is asking for something for nothing. I am not saying you give it all away for free. Didn't say you should get rid of master skins. If its an old an tired arguement it obviously has some merit, or it it wouldnt be old and tired. Obviously more than a few of the "customers" are upset with the current arangement. Im not complaining about the piddly $5 dollars for the Master skin. I am complaining about the $80 dollars that most pay only to have another $5.00 dollars asked for something that frankly is far superior to what was offered. Additionally the product is not sold as a membership / pay as you go service. Its sold as a theme enhancement utility with thousands of choices. Its not till you get much further in that you realize the limitations. Frankly if you need to rely on misdirection to sell your product you have bigger problems than a customers complaint about $5 dollars. Your analogies aren't comparitive. Your not making software your putting window dressing on it, the car and gas is well "strange". Finally get over yourself, nobody attacked you, I just gave an opinion based upon a consumers point of view, an opinion that still entitles you for your hours and hours of labor and offers a benefit for the customer me...

and that is exactly what it delivers.

Hi All.
I don't normally post anything, but have been registered on this site for quite a while. In between trying to learn how to fix the newest problem with my PC, I adore spending hours downloading skins, icons, and the like, installing all of them, and rearranging them to my tastes, or trying to understand downloaded and on-line tutorials (I really don't seem to have the patience for them, mostly, tho). I also enjoy checking out the makings of some...taking them apart, scrutinizing the gobbledegook (code, etc) that makes them functional, or attempting to add something...just to figure out whether I can, and how to do it! (I usually screw something up royally, BTW, and end up tossing these disfigured ones in the recycler, and would never presume to take credit for...or even upload the ones that survive...it just helps me to learn how they're made...kind of...... AND, if it survives,. I sometimes end up with, not just more knowledge and experience on the workings of skins and such, but also, I end up with something thats perfect--for only me!
---Which is where my point in posting here today lies..................
But first, I want to say...I truly do agree with all advocates of the master skins program...I think it's a comprehensive plan all the way around --to provide a goal for those who haven't yet achieved master status, a supplement for the costs of running such a huge, and well tended site, and , especially, to provide a much deserved compensation for the skinners themselves, who have put so much time and energy--not just into the skin they're requesting payment for, but into all of the skins they have shared with us, freely!!
...But my problem with the idea of spending $10 or more on something like this, is that...well, lets put it this way: Someone above mentioned that people are paying a dollar or more for a song online these days. This is a good deal, because its not that much money, and you get exactly what you want--Unlike when you had to spend $15 for a cd that had a song you liked, and might have a few other decent ones thrown into the bargain, but very rarely did you like, or really want, every title on that cd....( BTW, because of exactly this reason, I own very few cassettes, and only two cds...and I'm not that young, either! ha-ha). You see where I'm headed with this?
Granted...these 'Master Skins' are supposed to be superior to free ones, and they have to ...how was it put?....'Pass through supervisory scrutiny, before they're approved for master status', or something to that effect? But even so, its just like getting that brand new, professionally recorded CD by a top musical artist: Some of it's great...just what you wanted...but the rest...you could take it or leave it (and usually skip through it when you're listening! ). Ad with so many choices out there, in every imaginable layout, design, and color...why would I want to pay for a skin that would probably only get used (and admired!) for a few days, maximum, before my fickle moods took me back to the 'desktop drawing board', so to speak, applying several combinations of many of the hundreds of downloaded skins on my PC, before finding a combo that satisfies me for a couple more days!? Why!? Except for, as mentioned earlier, just as a kind of 'thank you' to the artist, who might have provided me with quite a few of the skins in my collection! SO does this fact even the scales? Not really, when you remember that countless others have also contributed to my collection, but they aren't getting a cut...

With that in mind,
Here's an idea that rather complements the Master Skin plan:
I suggest a not-necessarily-monetary compensation be implemented on this site, or one like it...where downloaders, uploaders, and posters earn points for their contribution to the site, and can then turn around and use their points to 'thank' the artists from whom they're downloading or learning. The points given to the artists for their skills could then be 'spent' on helping them acquire a higher rank at a faster pace. Or they could, in turn, 'thank' others for their contributions, as well!!
What do you think?

I know....I'm always long-winded when I bother to write...probably a good thing that it's not that often, huh?
Anyway, that's it.
I might not write back much, if at all...but I will be checking back here....I'm interested to know what you guys think.....

Thanks for reading...
Sincerely,
JenUin

to continue that analogy... you're basically saying you'd like to... ummm... buy the progress bar for $.25?



well, go thank all of them... unless you're referring to the money part. In that case, since you saying you're not digging out the wallet they're all getting the same cut from you're appreciation.



I think you totally missed the point.

There is already a 'points' rating system.

So basically you're proposing a system where I could get a bunch of people to acquire points, give them to me so I can then in turn buy my way into Master Skinner status even though I only have one thing in my gallery for which I take no credit since it created by Darkfusion (with some input and pic to use by me) because he wanted me to have a Troll something posted in my gallery.

You don't 'buy' Master status you earn it.

Whether or not a skin goes up with a price is entirely up to the artist who has earned the right to do so.



Why would you earn points for downloading?

ok....I didn't realize I had skipped two whole pages of posts when I added my reply (above)! And after going back and reading these posts, I can't resist adding a couple comments ( don't worry...tho lengthy, its mostly quotes...I'll keep my comments to a minimum...give others a chance...)Since the decision is based on contribution, it supports my idea, above...in fact, my idea gives a way for all members to participate in nominating Artists, rather than only mods and admins. After all, just our being a part of this site shows that we have an eye for artistry, or we wouldn't be here, right?
I'm sorry, I'm probably just not up on the latest post abbreviations....but, what does "IMHO" mean!? (it looks like 'IM a HO'!) hehehe
I completely second this statement!!! I have to 're-make' other's things, to get to the 'decent' stage, myself! Learning this skill is a feat unto itself.....let no one tell you different! Even the greats, who take pity upon us 'preschoolers of art', and deem to tutor us, forget that they speak a whole different language, that we haven't learned yet!! Again, I SECOND THIS! ("It's about choice, isn't it?", as Neo said, in M3) YES! It's ALL about choice! Our choice! The skinners choice! Stardock's choice! Everyone has a CHOICE! Well.....that, and perspective, of course....Because with out all these different perspectives, we wouldn't need so much CHOICE!! . I completely agree with this personal preference as an idea...However, unfortunately, I believe in Murphy, & his general ideas that go something like this:, "Whatever you believe makes sense, and thus, should follow, will most likely be the farthest from the actual result!" Just Joking.........I hope....
HAHA LOL
Now, I can certainly relate to this comment! Now, this kind of comment is something I'm afraid my suggestion might result in... This is not how I meant! ( Granted, I suppose, that people could play favorites in hopes of achieving rank faster, but it would backfire for my idea, because, although we can all give 'thanks' to others after just a little community involvement--say, a few posts...like the ones I'm posting now, for example!--, to earn enough to 'spend' on a raise of rank would take some serious uploads, and community involvement, for which others give thanks to you......which is what you say Masters are nominated on the basis of anyway! )
...kinda headed in the right direction......There ya go! Bonus points for one-on-one tutoring! I get sooo frustrated with 'help forums, where it seem like, at some point, everyone else just gallops ahead, whie I'm stuck on something, going, 'DUH"!
An other good arrangement: in this way, they could each earn points from each other! There would have to be some kind of limitation/fixed minimum amount of points given in this scenario....else that 'favorites thing' I mentioned could play havoc, or the other extreme; in individual ends up with no personal skinning time, thus, less upload points....
I'm sorry....but what good is a site with ONLY premium skins!?! Perhaps your clientel aren't aware of what IS available for next to nothing, if that, but, if I were you, I wouldn't take the chance of them finding out, and completely abandoning you! At least Stardock/Wincustomize had this ploy right: sucking all of us 'addicts' in with freebies, then casually suggesting that we pay for some "special items' Just a thought. No offense meant. Actually, this one DOES have a point...and its not like they're saying " I want it all free"...They just want to be able to get some quality functionality out of their $ from the get-go---I'm refering to those of us that can't even fathom the art of skinning yet, and browse stupidly thru our $80 software, totally at a loss as to what to do, mind you.... These people just want to plug in something gorgeous immediately, so they don't feel they got gipped, cuz these people don't know how good that deal is until they learn how to use the programs a little, and realize the scope of possibilities. It wouldn't kill anybody to let them choose one (maybe two) premium/master skin...(it might even serve to whet their appetite for premium skins, being as they're new to all this, and don't realize how many excellent free ones are out there....! You ever thought of that!!?) This statement isn't altogether right, my friend....Nowadays, when you buy a new computer, most come standard with MANY of the most popular/top-rated software to date! It's a selling point, and one that works quite nicely (If you don't know much about PCs, you think its the greatest thing in the world I know first hand--I was there only too recently!: "Look! A Dell Pentium 4 dual core PC, with a 200BG hhd, 120 GB of RAM, a DVD+-RW, a 19-inch HD LCD flatscreen, and a surroundsound stereo speaker system.....and it comes with Microsoft Windows Vista Home Edition, and other leading software titles, all pre-installed, at no extra charge!!!!" And it's on sale! Only $1199.99, with a $300 mail-in rebate!! Not bad, huh?!?" ....poor suckers....)
As for the car and gas example you gave....I'm afraid you got me there, my friend...! The way prices are going, I wouldn't be surprised to find the GAS costing more than the Cars, soon! ha-ha

....As JenUin as can be.........
.....JenUin-ly me!

In My Humble Opinion



The drawback to a points system is that someone could get all their buddies to join, download, rate(whatever you think should have points awarded for) just to get their buddy to Master level. So someone that has not a lick of atrtistic talent could become a Master. This is why must be earned and not bought with points.



That is that persons personal choice for their own site, if you don't like it then don't go to it. There are people that make and sell skins for a living.