How Stardock failed the skinning community in 2006
A look back at what we didn't do and what we need to do
Friday, December 22, 2006 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
WinCustomize.com is a website owned by Stardock. It was founded back in 2001 when the dot-com collapse took out most of the skin sites. Stardock wanted to ensure that there was a stable home for people who wanted to create cool stuff to enhanced their Windows experience.
While 2006 was Stardock's best year from a traditional success point of view (doubled in size, more than doubled in revenue, helped produce stuff for Microsoft on Windows Vista, building partnerships with OEMs, and the game's division made one of the top PC games of last year), I believe Stardock failed the skinning community. It failed it utterly.
This is going to be long but I will try to identify the areas where Stardock blew it and what I think it needs to "make good".
The Failures
- Awful documentation
- Lack of support for skinners
- Lack of community support
- Lack of leadership
Awful Documentation
As bad as the documentation for making cool stuff for Stardock's apps appears, it's actually far far worse. And if you think it's really really bad, trust me, it's even worse than that. It's not that we don't try. The problem is usually the only people who are good enough to make the documentation are the actual development teams who tend not to be very good at writing documentation. Ever looked at the actual text inside a WindowBlinds .UIS file?
Part of the problem stems from what Stardock really is as compared to "normal" companies. We're a bunch of software developers. Historically, almost pure coders. Until 2002, Stardock had one artist in the entire company and he was assigned to do our games. In 2003, we brought in a second artist (also to work on games). That's insane. But it didn't seem so. Not to us anyway.
We've always been a tech company. We created technology for the sake of creating technology. The fancy term for that these days are "thought leaders". That is, we think of stuff before other and try to crank it out. Those familiar with the misadventures of "TextBanners.net" may recall that we came up with text ads first. Yay. Neat technology but of course, Google owns that. We came up with full GUI skinning. First on OS/2 back in the early 90s and then on Windows. And we even had user-created mini applications created via JavaScript back in 2000 (DesktopX). But so what?
Without good documentation, tutorials, step by step guides, what is the point? With WindowBlinds, we got lucky. So compelling was that program that users were willing to figure out the arcane format. How arcane? This is from a WindowBlinds skin:
[Personality]
TextShiftNoIcon=-2
TextRightClipNoIcon=84
UsesTran=1
BUTTONCOUNT=26
TextAlignment=0
TextShift=-2
TextShiftVert=-3
TextRightClip=89
TextOnBottom=0
Menubar=YellowTab\YellowTabMainMenuBarImage.bmp
Top=YellowTab\YellowTabWindowFrameTopUis2.bmp
Left=YellowTab\YellowTabWindowFrameLeftUis2.bmp
Right=YellowTab\YellowTabWindowFrameRightUis2.bmp
Bottom=YellowTab\YellowTabWindowFrameBottomUis2.bmp
TopTopHeight=23
TopBotHeight=48
LeftTopHeight=37
LeftBotHeight=9
RightTopHeight=26
RightBotHeight=9
BottomTopHeight=2
BottomBotHeight=2
This isn't a joke. That's what the WindowBlinds "language" looks like underneath SkinStudio. My favorite is the BottomTopHeight line. But like I said, it was compelling enough that people were willing to reverse-engineer it to make cool stuff.
Our documentation elsewhere has been much more lacking. We put out documentation but it's pretty awful. Probably the best documentation we have is for DesktopX. And it's not anything I'd consider competitive in quality to Yahoo Widgets's 308 page developer manual. In fact, compare the DesktopX page to the Yahoo Widgets page.
The problem at Stardock is myopia. I'm not a politically correct type of guy as many of you know but I say without ego being involved that DesktopX is far far superior to Yahoo Widgets or any of the other platforms from a technological point of view. In capability (on Windows) is a complete superset and then some. As technologists, we simply assumed that was enough. Build a better mousetrap, etc. But people won't use the "Better" mousetrap if it requires a PhD. to manufacture.
Let me ask you this -- Where is a modern WindowBlinds tutorial? Let's say I want to create a WindowBlinds 5 skin. How do I do it? Where's the nice friendly example that walks me through it? Heck, the user guide that's on WindowBlinds.net is awful and the only reason it's not worse is that I went and edited what was originally put up there (complete with Times Roman font and MS Word artifacts).
In the beginning, when Stardock was smaller and the community smaller, much of these problems could be masked because me or one of the other developers at Stardock could personally answer questions on a forum. But as Stardock has grown and we've gotten a lot busier, these glaring holes in our documentation became critical. The WindowBlinds skinning guide that is on the page is from 2002. I kid you not. FOUR YEARS AGO! The only thing that saves WindowBlinds skinning remotely is that SkinStudio, while not an easy to use application, is pretty decent. But it's not enough and the learning curve has only gotten worse.
Lack of Support for Skinners
You'd think the terrible documentation situation would be enough to cover the lack of support for skinners. But no, it's worse than that. Even setting aside the documentation, lack of organized tutorials, lack of step-by-step guides, etc. there's the fact that Stardock should have someone who is dedicated to doing nothing else but helping people become skinners.
Think about it. Stardock benefits from people making skins and themes right? Shouldn't it have a dedicated [email protected] type email address? It doesn't. Why not? We should. Heck, we wouldn't even need a full-time person. Just someone to help point people to tutorials (that presumably would exist), answer questions, give advice, etc.
Instead, we leave people to the tender mercies of the forums (which I'll get to next).
Stardock doesn't even put out hardly any good example content any more (that it doesn't charge for!
) for people to learn from. Stardock released one ObjectBar theme into the ObjectBar 2 gallery. When was the last time Stardock released some new DesktopX gadgets, themes, etc? How about some new ObjectDock samples? ObjectDock 1.5 supports .dockzips. Do you see any in the gallery? I don't. We released nothing that uses it.
Lack of Community Support
Being good in the community was something we used to be great at. Sure, there were always the perpetual "free beer" people who objected to our existence (i.e. people who didn't like the idea of paying for software but themselves didn't write any software or make skins or anything) but overall, we were much more interactive.
Now, on the plus side, the # of "Frogboy is evil" posts we get in various places has declined. But I think, as a community, we were better off with some of that when Stardock people were more interactive. And, more importantly, setting an example.
The WinCustomize forums largely disgust me. Sorry but it needs to be said. WinCustomize's forums wreak of elitism and intolerance. Why are the forums not as busy as a site that gets millions of visitor should be? Because people come on, ask a question, make a mild criticism and then get creamed by old guard people who wish "newbies" would go away. One of the reasons why we really got behind WinCustomize.com in a big way after it was launched was because we were so pissed off at some of the elitism we saw elsewhere (I'm sure some of you know what I'm talking about). But while many of us old guys have been busy coding new stuff, the forums have become an increasingly hostile place.
And when they're not hostile, they're sterile and impersonal. I'd as much hang out on the WC forums as I'd hang out on the forums for my TV manufacturer. Only because of the wondrous loyalty of many good-hearted folks are our forums even remotely capable of being rehabilitated.
Moreover, Stardock should have a community manager. Could even be the same guy who's helping skinners. Someone who's helping out on other sites. WinCustomize isn't the only skin site. What about SkinBase? They deserve more support from Stardock than they get. Or tons of newer customization community sites too that I'm not even hanging out on.
Again, in the old days, Stardock's lack of infrastructure was masked. I would get an email from someone ([email protected]) and quickly answer it. But now, I get thousands of email a day. Hundreds of which request a response. As a result, I don't even see much of the email I get. Realistically, I should ask someone to look through my email every day and flag anything that needs urgent attention.
Lack of leadership
We should be better at setting an example for how things should be done. Stardock people should be in the forums. Stardock people should be making skins and releasing them. Should be making tutorials. Should be writing documentation. Should be answering questions. Should be commenting on skins. Should be hosting IRC chats. Should be making video demos. And so on and so on. But we're not.
And so things tend to go to whomever is the loudest or has the deepest pockets. I mean do skinners really envision a gadget future in which they're mucking with DHTML and Javascript to create a fixed size gadget for the Windows Vista Sidebar? Does that sound cool? But what's the alternative? Making a PNG file that's tied up with some Javascript for a different multi-billion dollar company?
I've seen people on-line refer to us as "Those wizards at Stardock will think of something cool..." Which is a very high complement. But if we want to be the thought leaders then we better bloody get back to leading on stuff.
Because I don't know about you guys but if my "skinning" options are either making another glass skin for the OS, making a weather gadget/widget for whatever or sitting it out, then forget it.
What needs to be done
It's easy for me to sit here and rip Stardock a new one. It's my company after all. Talk is cheap. What is Stardock going to actually do about this? And by do I mean realistically. Because if you read through my litany of complaints, the "solution" seems obvious -- in a perfect world. But it's not a perfect world. We live in a world where I can't even hire a decent QA (Quality Assurance) person. We get people in for interviews who haven't even been to our webpage (first rule of thumb when interviewing for a job -- know something about the product or service that you are interested in being involved with).
Here are the things I think Stardock must do in 2007:
- Make is easier to create stuff for our software
- Organize support for skinners
- Get more involved in the community
- Lead by example
Make it easier...
Updating documentation is an obvious thing that needs to be done. But it needs to go beyond that. Stardock needs to develop visually easy to understand tutorials that walk a user through how to create something.
It also needs to update its software (particularly SkinStudio) in such a way to make it easier to create skins. More specifically, there should be beginner, intermediate, and advanced ways to create stuff both from a tools point of view and a tutorial/documentation point of view.
It should be consistent across the board. Everywhere on all Stardock's products there should be guides focused on beginners, intermediate, and advanced users.
Organize Support for Skinners
Stardock should create an off-shoot of the next WinCustomize.com (like skinners.wincustomize.com) that is dedicated purely to learning the art of skinning. Everything should show up there and it should be reasonably well organized.
Moreover, Stardock should have a person who is officially responsible for helping people get into this. Have a question on how to create an alpha blended title bar for WindowBlinds? Need help creating an animated wallpaper (well, not yet but soon...), How do I make a new boot screen for Windows Vista? How do I make a docklet for ObjectDock? And so on.
Part of this also comes in the form of trying to support other people's standards. For example, DesktopX 3.5 will export content to the Windows Sidebar. So people who don't think it particularly joyful to muck around with DHTML and Javascript can instead use a proven environment with updated documentation and tutorials to create new stuff.
But more to the point, someone at Stardock should always be on-hand to help out on this. It should be someone specific too. Not a "skinner support department" but literally someone who is part of the community that works at Stardock that you know and feel you can talk to individually.
Get more involved in the community
This is like the above example but it has more to do with non-skinners. Stardock needs to be more involved on a day to day basis in the community. That means hanging out on forums. I recognize that the days of me participating in some lengthy discussion on Neowin.net or deviantART or Customize.org are long gone. There's just not the time anymore. But someone needs to be doing it.
We're working on that already. IslandDog is working on this already and I imagine you'll be seeing him in a lot of other areas as we develop this new strategy.
But there's going to be some pain on WinCustomize 2007. We're going to bring down the hammer on elitism. Any user who comes across as a bully or "anti-newbie" won't be welcome. WinCustomize.com's forums should be thought of as a lounge to hang out with friends. The forums will be modified to support a more "community" like atmosphere.
People email me and I just don't see the emails -- literally. One user on a blog said that "Stardock's success has gone to Brad's head". My egomania aside, the reason I don't answer emails isn't that I don't care about folks anymore but rather a simple matter of logistics. Heck, I missed Microsoft's invitation to go to CES (luckily I found out via other channels). I just don't see the emails. Most of my time is spent doing other things. I'm actually better known in the game industry these days than in the skinning world.
But it is still the company's responsibility to replace my presence with someone else's. Otherwise, Stardock might as well just be yet another Internet business out there to squeeze money from people. People who know us know that we're in this because it's fun to do. But to a newcomer, if we don't behave any differently than any other "business" why should we expect to be seen as any different?
So we absolutely have to rectify that in a big way.
Lead by example
Picture this: The year is 2001. DesktopX objects are starting to become popular. WindowBlinds vs. msstyles have heated up. And the sky seems unlimited in terms of new cool stuff from not just Stardock but shareware and freeware people from around the world. Great eh?
But then the ghost of Christmas future shows up and tells you that by the end of 2006 that widgets have become various ways to skin clocks, weather readers and RSS feeds (there's nothing wrong with that but then a specialized app could/should have been made for those 3 things that is MUCH easier to create skins for and that skins could be shared). And Hoverdesk and Litestep were either dead or on life support and that the ObjectBar 2 gallery had one theme in it. Who would have believed it?
Without leadership, you have inertia.
I wrote recently how the most damaging thing to skinning has been the length of time it took Microsoft to do Windows Vista. This is true. That is, one can legitimately argue that the skinning community shouldn't expect Stardock to come up with all the new stuff. But on the other hand, if Stardock wants to be perceived as a "leader" in this growing trend, it needs to do stuff.
That means:
- Create state of the art content to give away to show what is possible.
- Show, in as many ways and places as possible, how that state of the art stuff was created
- Find new and cool things for people to do on their computers
- Create programs and tools (and make as many of them free as possible) to do those cool things.
- Present what you do with respect to others. Skinning should be fun. Skinning is fun.
- Interact with skinners and help them proactively.
To do these things, we are trying to build up the manpower to do this. It has been slow going though. The problems described in this article are things we've seen and been aware of. But solving them means bringing on talented people to help us. And that has been a real challenge. We want to hire people. But the # of people who can really do the job is amazingly small.
Conclusions
So there you have it. How Stardock failed the skinning community in 2006. I hope I do not have to write something similar next year. The pieces are starting to come together now. But we have a lot of work ahead of ourselves.
It mostly boils down to too much work for too few people. We've got projects going on with major PC OEMs, Microsoft, Take 2, and beyond which, for a company of around 50 people total is just immense. Especially when the ones who have traditionally "done" the stuff that made Stardock what it is today are now stretched between so many things. But that's our problem and it is something we have to resolve.
I would appreciate any comments, suggestions, criticism you have to offer. There's a LOT to look forward to next year. And this year has been a great year. But it was definitely not a shining beacon for Stardock's support of the skinning community. We'll do better.
Reply #82 Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:53 AM
And I do not credit the artists. Show me one real Design studio that does? Frog Design? Nope. REZN8? Not a chance. The projects are done by our studio. We are not an art agency representing artists. Amateur hour is over.
Its so funny how all these people ridicule me for not giving props to the artists, when the artists don't care. And to be pefectly frank, show me on the last Stardock Design description who the artists were? I had to ask around who did the Xenomorph and Xbox 360 icons. It certainly wasn't written out for all to read. And show me a skin where i mention my name Jesh and not the artists? Go ahead and show me. If you're going to talk then i suggest you back it up otherwise you just look like an idiot... no not an idiot, a CEO of a Civil Engineering company in Central Florida. Now i really have to go and see some animals.
Reply #83 Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:55 AM
| Yes, I imagine they'd like you back so they can open the worm exhibit. |
LOL now I'm a "worm"? That's mature.
Reply #84 Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:56 AM
The Skins Factory: Attacks and insults on other members of this site are not permitted. Play by the rules, or do not play at all.
The2J2Bug: The same goes to you.
Reply #85 Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:01 AM
My opinion/thoughts(and like my okole puka, everyone's got one)......
You are spot on with your list of things that need to be dealt with.....and I see you got tons of business/personal/management advice already, as well as some of the problems you've ID'd concerning the forums.
Now, it's story time.
I started using computers in 1989, and from then until 1995, my home computers were throw aways, cast offs, kludged together things that let me learn the ins and outs of the mechanical aspects of computers. But in '95 I started my own business and had need of new computer. I gave my self 30 days to research and decide on where I was gonna get my new computer from......and ended up ordering a complete system with add-ons from a company called Vector Computers out of Grand Rapids, Texas. It was a great computer, rock solid and never a problem with it(wish I could say the same for Windows at that time)......but it worked good! '97 and it's time to upgrade, so research and it's come down to the Vector again. '99 I did the research but already pretty much knew what I wanted and ended up with another Vector. During this same time frame I had picked up a "sideline" helping(for money of course) others with there non-Vector computers.
Now, we come to 2001, and it's time for another upgrade. I pretty much know what I want, but start doing the research again. And lo' and behold.....Vector Computers is GONE!
I hit the Internet to see what's happening...........
I find out the following........
They had made such a reputation for quality that their business had taken off in a big way. So big that they couldn't keep up with demand. Also their suppliers couldn't keep up with them.
So, it's decision time............and theirs were to go to other untried suppliers and to sub out part of their assemblies.
Whamo-blamo, their quality goes in the toilet. As does their reputation. And finally by 2001 so did their company. And in 2006, a search(not indepth) and I can't even find a mention of them.
Brad and Co., Y'all are at that kinda point. Maybe even a little past it. Which way you go is totally up to you, but IMO, the fact that you will look at the hard questions, and do it publicly says, to me, that y'all are heading in the right direction.
So, even though it's mostly out of curiousity(with a smattering of loyalty thrown in) I'll be sticking with my OD for another year at least.
Reply #86 Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:04 AM
| What I want for this community, is for people to be nice to each other |
I'm finished. I've met my intellectual superior so I'll slink away.
Reply #87 Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:08 AM
But TSF make skins on StarDock technologies it use Thememanager,SkinStudio,WindowBlinds etc...
If brad things there are weak points and show on front of millions of users then i have to say he is a brave person and want to learn from mistakes by this thread. He is also doing geat work for community and skinners by spending more time on work and keeping his family behind the community. I think he will do better and better.
As Stardock Design concern it just tooks start and will prove that it will also stay on the top of designing.

Reply #88 Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:12 AM
| The Skins Factory: Attacks and insults on other members of this site are not permitted. Play by the rules, or do not play at all. |
If your user base wasn't so confrontational then maybe i wouldn't feel the need to attack back. I didn't even start this. I simply responded to Brad's article and you're going to sit there and single me out. Whatever Neil. Maybe your time would be better spent fixing bugs?
Reply #89 Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:22 AM
The Skins Factory: Sometimes it is best to let things go rather than attack back.
As for my time, strange as it may seem I do not work 24/7. As I planned ahead I do not have to go out to the shops today so I am having a lazy day instead.
If you have a specific bug in mind, please feel free to either post on the site about it, or contact me directly. I cannot promise an immediate response, but I do read all bug reports on the forums & those mailed to me.
Reply #90 Saturday, December 23, 2006 11:24 AM
I read the long article on how you failed. I'd like to help you in some way if I can. I don't have the technical programming skills that your people have and I'm not seeking a job. What I mean is that I think I represent one type of new user that you are trying to reach out to. If I can help you to meet the needs of people like me, I would be happy to try. My basis profile: Male; Age 43; computer literate, but not too technical; use WB5, Object Dock, Object Desktop, Logon and Bootskin. I stumbled upon these things and like them because they're cool. I'm willing to spend a few dollars to make my computer experience more fun. I've attempted to skin, but don't have the time to figure things out. I agree that Yahoo Widgets and Google Toolbar are much more user friendly and customizable. I read about how Desktop X and Object bar can do those things, but it's beyond me. I was able to make my own logon, sort of. I've even written a couple of well known skinners asking about something.
One example has to do with the widgets for displaying pictures. None of them can view pictures in sub-folders. Who keeps all their pictures in one folder? Similar widgets from the competition have this ability and work just fine. I know that Desktop X can do this, but I dont' know how to do it. I would rather use Desktop X than Yahoo or Google. Afterall, I paid for it. I think you see my point.
I've been in the IRC looking for help. Milksama has been very kind in the past. I appreciate what you do and wouldn't mind if my son one day worked for you. Stardock and Adobe are my two favorite software companies. Again, if there is some way I can help provide feedback or something. I'd be glad to help.
Reply #91 Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:17 PM

Reply #92 Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:59 PM

Reply #93 Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:48 PM
| The problem that I see is simple. You've bitten off more than you can chew. You've expanded in so many directions without having the proper resources in place. That means something is going to suffer. We watched it happen as you took bandwidth from Wincustomize and used it for the release of Gal Civ. This is an example of poor upper management skills. Your Executive team dropped the ball plain and simple. Now you're going to try and compete with The Skins Factory with Stardock Design. What this means is, whatever decent artists you have, will be tied up for corporate jobs instead of creating premium content for your core competency - Object Desktop. Unless of course Stardock Design tanks and they have free time to work on other things. I'm not sure 2007 is going to be better for Stardock like Jafo pointed out. I think in a lot of ways the offerings coming from Object Desktop will be less significant as Vista offers alot of the eye candy that OD provided for XP users. We don't need Object Desktop to give us more than 4-pixel borders for our Windows, drop shadows, gadgets and alpha channel skinning. So I'm reading what you have to say but I'm not convinced things will change. I think you've spread yourself too thin and as history has shown, that's when empires tend to fall. Question is... will you learn from your mistakes or will you just keep on making them? And its always easy to point mistakes out, its fixing them that's the hard part. I'm pretty sure the main argument about why users will need WindowBlinds for Vista is going to be so users can customize it. With the UXTheme patches that will be flying out, as well as other solutions, it will tear into your core user base. |
Jeff, you are mixing Stardock's failure at COMMUNITY support with failure at business. They are not the same. Often times, business success results in managers having to choose what gets resources and what does not. I don't think many people would find fault with our "management skills" (we did double in revenue last year). The fault is a lack of management bandwidth.
For example, diverting bandwidth temporarily last year to Galactic Civilizations II's launch was a good business decision. The game has sold over 200,000 copies (you can do the math and figure out the revenue that resulted). From a business point of view, Stardock did extremely well last year.
Stardock Design already has contracts with Microsoft, Dell, sports teams, universities, etc. Again, from a business point of view, it has already succeeded and its growth is not in question (we're essentially bringing on new skinners as fast as we can). In addition, if you think Windows Vista will provide the "eye candy" that users want, then that really doesn't bode well for The Skins Factory (i.e. those who see doom usually get their way). Having spent months disecting it (and knowing what Microsoft has asked us to do for it which I can't get into publicly) I can tell you that the demand is likely to be much greater than it was on Windows XP. (for example, on Vista, you can't even resize or modify the way the title bar buttons with msstyles which, given the very specific way the title bar buttons on Vista look will be incredibly limiting -- on XP, you could use msstyles to skin the OS. On Vista, it's PNG replacement).
It's important to make the distinction between business and community. While I can take pride in Stardock's business success over the past year, it has come with the price of not providing the kind of support to the skinning community that I would like us to provide. As you said - we bit off more than we could chew. And community support is what suffered. This past year, my participation in forums has greatly declined. I think any regular here or on any other community site can attest that my participation which used to be ubiqitious has declined dramatically. The problem is that I didn't "replace myself" with someone to go out and do what I did which led to a detachment that needs to be addressed this upcoming year.
Using the capital that we've gained over the past year, we are trying to bring on more people so that we can do both -- grow as a business while providing the community support that I think is vital to the long-term viability of the community and Stardock's desktop enhancement efforts.
Reply #94 Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:51 PM

Reply #95 Saturday, December 23, 2006 2:06 PM
I want to thank everyone for participating in this thread. There are some great ideas floating in here.
One of the things that has proven really challenging is simply finding good people. You know the story - company has great success and starts hiring people like crazy. But in their rush to fill positions, they end up a different company and as a result ultimately fail because the new people aren't nearly as committed or talented as the original. THAT is what we're trying to avoid. We've tried to be very careful to hire the "best and brightest" from around the world but it has meant that things have gone slowly.
For example, we didn't just hire random software developers last year. We went through the effort to bring on GreenReaper who came from the UK (which meant the corresponding visas and all that). We didn't want to just bring on skin artists, we hired Mike Bryant and Treetog and began working with other skinners with the long-term intention of bringing them on as salaried positions as well. The same is true across the company. Only recently did we bring on Island Dog to start doing some of the things I used to do in the community and it will take time for him (as it did for me) to find the right mixture of activities.
Obviously Windows Vista's impending release ate up a lot of resources. And the unexpected growth of Stardock Design (they have 36 or so suites that they have to do by end of March for a single client!) has ended up tying a lot of resources as well.
But as the original article indicates, we do know the positions we need to fill and what is needed to be done. And with your help and your advice I think we can make great strides to put those plans into effect this coming year.
Please keep the suggestions, comments, and criticism coming. It's all very helpful and informative.
Reply #96 Saturday, December 23, 2006 2:49 PM
| Only recently did we bring on Island Dog to start doing some of the things I used to do in the community and it will take time for him (as it did for me) to find the right mixture of activities. |
Good move on your part.
Reply #97 Saturday, December 23, 2006 3:36 PM
PS . Hankers thinks it would be cool too

Reply #98 Saturday, December 23, 2006 5:28 PM
| Now you're going to try and compete with The Skins Factory with Stardock Design |
since i came here to wincustomize, the first skins i saw were made by TSF, even though i also notice some great skins made by the well know skinners: MikeB, Tiggz, D'Arnaez and recently JJ Ying., this means that you are only part of an small elite of "good" skinners (sry if i dont call you Pro, TSF, becouse you are not acting as one), sooooo., i have the feeling that you are a bit paranoiac by saying that Stardock team is trying to "compete" with you and the ones who are part of TSF., it's kindda ridiculous and out of place

| Wow what a shocker!! Now I know why I rarely bother to come here. Too many @$$holes |
| Too many @$$holes |
becouse of that, i dont think TheSkinsFactory is not a pro team.
Reply #99 Saturday, December 23, 2006 5:57 PM
| For example, diverting bandwidth temporarily last year to Galactic Civilizations II's launch was a good business decision. |
That's the bit I see as 'good management' FOR the skinners and Wincustomize...[though I know many argued the opposite at the time].
| This past year, my participation in forums has greatly declined. I think any regular here or on any other community site can attest that my participation which used to be ubiqitious has declined dramatically. |
That's the bit I see as the 'failing'. I really can't see anyone else standing in as 'the official word of Stardock' or at least not unequivocally.
**************************
It certainly does look, however that we are stuck with disparate confrontational attitudes flaring up from time to time here...gotta be simply chest-beating and half-baked opinion....which is curious, considering the nature of the thread.
Again, anyone who does remember that skinning history would not question TSF's input/contribution to skinning, [nor dare I say Jeff's readiness to verbally stoush with whomever enters the radar]. As Neil [and others] have said....there's no place for personal attack here....and considering the relative age/maturity of the Forum users you'd expect intelligent argument and disagreement WITHOUT petty flame.
Jeff, re the 'crediting of Stardock Design skinners' and hypocrisy, in the latest 'gift' for WC Subscribers thread Karmagirl mentioned those involved....
Reply #100 Saturday, December 23, 2006 6:32 PM
It is pretty obvious that Brad realizes he made some mistakes along the way, which is evident by his post. So I think he is on the right track. As far as Brad being visible on his site...I personally think its a good thing, it gives the site more personality by seeing "The Boss" show an active interest in his consumer base rather than having a site without a face. This is one thing I find attractive about this site and what I think makes the site more of a community and makes this site unique. Its not stuck in that "this is how its done" box.
As far as the "a@@holes" as tsf has put it...they come in all shapes and sizes and all walks of life and what separates the a@@holes from the others is how you choose your words. Choose your words carefully.
The one thing that "I think" is getting in the way of things and causing things to suffer...is the construction of the site...I've been here for roughly 3 years now and the site seems to be stuck in perpetual construction/reconstruction. Just as I was getting acclimated to the site...it went under the knife...then as soon as I started getting used to the "New & Improved" site...it went under the knife again. Sure...a nice looking eye candy site helps, but get it done...the products need you.
If theres one thing I hate...its moving! 
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Reply #81 Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:53 AM