WinCustomize Subscription Totals Won't Make The Goal: What Next?
With the WinCustomize Subscription Not Even At The Half Way Poin... What Now?
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 by joetheblow | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
We have talked about this extensively on other threads, but now with the moment of truth upon us the question is what will happen to WinCustomize?
If this site was owned by a person and that crash with the server happened, it would have been a lost.
In fact, the idea that this happened only shows how much work is going on behind the scenes of this site that has to be costly and probably more than Frogboy will admit.
After reading the Does Stardock 'need' WinCustomize? thread as well as other threads on the message board/forums, the question is now what is next.
I think the answer will be more extreme that what we been talking about. Will it be a totally subscriber only site period (this would avoid the multiple account thing because even if you do that you will only get so much and view so much)?
What happens to the Wincustomize User Pages? How will un-subscribers be able to view it or download from it?
Will there be whole sections of WinCustomize off limits to outsiders?
I think the immediate response will be no downloads unless your signed in (unless its wallpapers, CursorXP or something) Not sure about the rest. I am guessing with the need for new restrictions that there will be a total site redesign for subscribers.
Personally, I think it is a sad day for all of this come November 1st 2005. The other sites just don't compare. I visited one site of the alternates to WinCusto and my browser crashed because of the pop-up attempts. Can you believe that?
I don't think many people will like the subscriber idea and will think Stardock is leaching off of artists. People will leave probably from what I read of some of the comments. I find that funny since most of the comments of 'leeching of artists' came from people who started off here and got there notoriety due to the 'leeching' of hosting their stuff, keeping it save, and organizing a community around it.
I always said that WinCustomize is a symbiosis between the artist and Stardock. On can not live as well without the other.
But with the restrictions soon to come on its way, what will happen to WinCustomize? What is next?
If this site was owned by a person and that crash with the server happened, it would have been a lost.
In fact, the idea that this happened only shows how much work is going on behind the scenes of this site that has to be costly and probably more than Frogboy will admit.
After reading the Does Stardock 'need' WinCustomize? thread as well as other threads on the message board/forums, the question is now what is next.
I think the answer will be more extreme that what we been talking about. Will it be a totally subscriber only site period (this would avoid the multiple account thing because even if you do that you will only get so much and view so much)?
What happens to the Wincustomize User Pages? How will un-subscribers be able to view it or download from it?
Will there be whole sections of WinCustomize off limits to outsiders?
I think the immediate response will be no downloads unless your signed in (unless its wallpapers, CursorXP or something) Not sure about the rest. I am guessing with the need for new restrictions that there will be a total site redesign for subscribers.
Personally, I think it is a sad day for all of this come November 1st 2005. The other sites just don't compare. I visited one site of the alternates to WinCusto and my browser crashed because of the pop-up attempts. Can you believe that?
I don't think many people will like the subscriber idea and will think Stardock is leaching off of artists. People will leave probably from what I read of some of the comments. I find that funny since most of the comments of 'leeching of artists' came from people who started off here and got there notoriety due to the 'leeching' of hosting their stuff, keeping it save, and organizing a community around it.
I always said that WinCustomize is a symbiosis between the artist and Stardock. On can not live as well without the other.
But with the restrictions soon to come on its way, what will happen to WinCustomize? What is next?
 |
|
Page 3 of 7 | |
|
|---|
DJBandit
Reply #42 Thursday, October 27, 2005 12:47 PM
Reply #42 Thursday, October 27, 2005 12:47 PM
One last thing, because of this place and all the great skinds for every program I have seem I am looking into learning how to use PSP and Adobe Photo Shop so that I can make my own skins. I was hoping one day to be able to upload my own skins. I finally found something I want to do as a hobby and I am researching alot to learn as fast as I can. I don't wish to be know as a freeloader. It was not my intention, I figured that's how it was, kinda like a P2P site for skins. People made it for free and WC was the place to share it. Once again my bad, I appologize.
Kevin_C
Reply #43 Thursday, October 27, 2005 12:55 PM
just a little tip, but you are using an illegal copy right now. While it may seem OK because your friend bought it both you and he are actually in the wrong. While you saved yourself a bit by stating you plan on buying them, but I'd be careful about admitting you're using someone else's software because it's easier than following the legal path.
There are lots of ways to buy the software without a credit card online. Buying online is the fastest way to get the software but other alternatives do exist. Have your friend buy it on his credit card (if he has one) and then just pay him back.
I'm not going to assume I know anything about your financial position and I do know that $20 can be a lot of money for some people so I'm not going to be the annoying car salesman who's only looking to make the sale, but I can tell you the subscription is a great investment. You might also just consider buying at least 1 of the apps you are currently *trying*. It will remove your download limit, at least in the near term, and it will give you that warm fuzzy that comes from knowing you're helping out where you can. Then, just start tossing quarters and dimes into a jar whenever you can and you'll have $20 in no time and you can get another app or a subscription. I'd of course suggest OD but it's a bit more expensive but well worth it!
Good luck, and remember, technically you're using the software illegally so don't be surprised if someone else comes along and is pretty brutal about your admitting to using someone else's software because it was easier than downloading the Shareware versions...
Reply #43 Thursday, October 27, 2005 12:55 PM
| Second, costumer support, you just can't get help when you have an illegal copy |
just a little tip, but you are using an illegal copy right now. While it may seem OK because your friend bought it both you and he are actually in the wrong. While you saved yourself a bit by stating you plan on buying them, but I'd be careful about admitting you're using someone else's software because it's easier than following the legal path.
| I do how ever have the problem of not having credit and therefor no credit card to use on the internet |
There are lots of ways to buy the software without a credit card online. Buying online is the fastest way to get the software but other alternatives do exist. Have your friend buy it on his credit card (if he has one) and then just pay him back.
I'm not going to assume I know anything about your financial position and I do know that $20 can be a lot of money for some people so I'm not going to be the annoying car salesman who's only looking to make the sale, but I can tell you the subscription is a great investment. You might also just consider buying at least 1 of the apps you are currently *trying*. It will remove your download limit, at least in the near term, and it will give you that warm fuzzy that comes from knowing you're helping out where you can. Then, just start tossing quarters and dimes into a jar whenever you can and you'll have $20 in no time and you can get another app or a subscription. I'd of course suggest OD but it's a bit more expensive but well worth it!
Good luck, and remember, technically you're using the software illegally so don't be surprised if someone else comes along and is pretty brutal about your admitting to using someone else's software because it was easier than downloading the Shareware versions...
DJBandit
Reply #44 Thursday, October 27, 2005 1:39 PM
Reply #44 Thursday, October 27, 2005 1:39 PM
Well just to make it clear I am simply testing it. I am not keeping the copy for the simply reason of not getting my friend in trouble. It does sound easy to be able to save a penny here and there, but it's not always that easy. Still I do look foward to getting OD ASAP. Maybe there are other ways of buying stuff online. I am a bit uneducated as to how. I don't have a bank account and I don't wish to use someone elses credit for my benefit cause it always comes back to bit you. I should know it has happened before with my brother.
I know I can expect a wave of insults and hatred. I figured if I was honest it would not be as bad but it's not something I can get away with. I was only trying to be honest when I realized the dilema WC is going thru with people like me "freeloading". I never figured that was what I was doing and am stopping from doing so. As I said it was not my intention to be part of the problem. I always look foward to help in any way I can and I gladly offer any help I can give if it will help me stay in this great community. If it is not enough, once again I understand and will take whats coming to me. I still have joeuser.com, I hope.
Hopefully I will be able to return (if I am restricted) and be part of the community as a member not a freeloader. If anyone understands that free doesn't always mean free it's me. Little by little I have learned to find free options to some software but getting it was not easy, which is where the not completely free part comes in. I'm sure most here know what it's like to download 75 MB of software thru a dial-up.
I know I can expect a wave of insults and hatred. I figured if I was honest it would not be as bad but it's not something I can get away with. I was only trying to be honest when I realized the dilema WC is going thru with people like me "freeloading". I never figured that was what I was doing and am stopping from doing so. As I said it was not my intention to be part of the problem. I always look foward to help in any way I can and I gladly offer any help I can give if it will help me stay in this great community. If it is not enough, once again I understand and will take whats coming to me. I still have joeuser.com, I hope.
Hopefully I will be able to return (if I am restricted) and be part of the community as a member not a freeloader. If anyone understands that free doesn't always mean free it's me. Little by little I have learned to find free options to some software but getting it was not easy, which is where the not completely free part comes in. I'm sure most here know what it's like to download 75 MB of software thru a dial-up.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #45 Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:02 PM
Reply #45 Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:02 PM
DJBandit
UserID: 1139447
Member Since: 4/28/2004 12:12:45 AM
Last Visited: 10/26/2005 2:47:11 PM
Access Class: Citizen (1)
User Level: Visitor (2)
You passed the trial period well over a year ago.
UserID: 1139447
Member Since: 4/28/2004 12:12:45 AM
Last Visited: 10/26/2005 2:47:11 PM
Access Class: Citizen (1)
User Level: Visitor (2)
You passed the trial period well over a year ago.
DJBandit
Reply #46 Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:06 PM
Reply #46 Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:06 PM
DJBandit
UserID: 1139447
Member Since: 4/28/2004 12:12:45 AM
Last Visited: 10/26/2005 2:47:11 PM
Access Class: Citizen (1)
User Level: Visitor (2)
How is that possible if I only signed on about a month ago or so? I don't get it. Must be another person.
UserID: 1139447
Member Since: 4/28/2004 12:12:45 AM
Last Visited: 10/26/2005 2:47:11 PM
Access Class: Citizen (1)
User Level: Visitor (2)
How is that possible if I only signed on about a month ago or so? I don't get it. Must be another person.
TYCUS
Reply #47 Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:34 PM
Maybe you should tell me which hobby would became the best:
-creating skins
-living comments in others skins and post at the forum
-listening my little bird
-cooking my little bird
-giving my little bird to my cat...
-stay still until you put your answer...
Reply #47 Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:34 PM
| ..find another hobby. |
Maybe you should tell me which hobby would became the best:
-creating skins
-living comments in others skins and post at the forum
-listening my little bird
-cooking my little bird
-giving my little bird to my cat...
-stay still until you put your answer...
Bichur
Reply #48 Thursday, October 27, 2005 4:16 PM
I hear you. I was told I could come get what I wanted when I bought OD. I am an OD & WC subscriber. I subscribe to OD to get the new versions. I come here because of the sheer number of skins and the forums. I subscribe here because I would hate to see the site disappear, which would force me to either: go to other sites and have to deal with a lot of crap (skins, ads, spies, trojans, installers, etc) - or - learn how to create my own {and I have no original artistic talent
}. In a sense, I am a freeloader. I have no other premium skins other than the 3 I now have due to subscriptions. I prefer free stuff. I like free stuff. Free stuff doesn't hurt my wallet. I don't get upset when I don't use or delete free stuff for whatever reason.
Personally, the way I see it: If I did not subscibe here (being a customer/OD subscriber) I would get upset if y'all berated me. I was basically told being a customer and OD subscriber I was more than welcome to come get stuff. Seems to me part of my OD subscription should be applied here.
I do not feel obligated to subscribe here since to me this place is part of Stardock - I subscribe here because I want to.
I have no idea what I'm actually trying to say. It's just that based on the information I and others were given when we purchased OD, I don't really think it's fair to call any OD subsciber a freeloader.
Odds are this won't make sense. I'm at work and actually started this about 3.5 hrs ago and I keep getting interrupted.
You may now trash the Troll
Reply #48 Thursday, October 27, 2005 4:16 PM
| If there won't be free sites, I won't download them. This is what I thought when bought OD. |
I hear you. I was told I could come get what I wanted when I bought OD. I am an OD & WC subscriber. I subscribe to OD to get the new versions. I come here because of the sheer number of skins and the forums. I subscribe here because I would hate to see the site disappear, which would force me to either: go to other sites and have to deal with a lot of crap (skins, ads, spies, trojans, installers, etc) - or - learn how to create my own {and I have no original artistic talent
}. In a sense, I am a freeloader. I have no other premium skins other than the 3 I now have due to subscriptions. I prefer free stuff. I like free stuff. Free stuff doesn't hurt my wallet. I don't get upset when I don't use or delete free stuff for whatever reason.Personally, the way I see it: If I did not subscibe here (being a customer/OD subscriber) I would get upset if y'all berated me. I was basically told being a customer and OD subscriber I was more than welcome to come get stuff. Seems to me part of my OD subscription should be applied here.
I do not feel obligated to subscribe here since to me this place is part of Stardock - I subscribe here because I want to.
I have no idea what I'm actually trying to say. It's just that based on the information I and others were given when we purchased OD, I don't really think it's fair to call any OD subsciber a freeloader.
Odds are this won't make sense. I'm at work and actually started this about 3.5 hrs ago and I keep getting interrupted.
You may now trash the Troll
Autumnmist
Reply #50 Thursday, October 27, 2005 4:43 PM
Reply #50 Thursday, October 27, 2005 4:43 PM
All I can say is that I would have a VERY hard time justifying paying $60 for ObjectDesktop when I wouldn't have any skins to use it with unless I paid an extra $20 for Wincustomize! I have been saying often that I really don't like the style of the vast majority of premium suites that come with OD, so then there is no point to me buying OD if there are no skins to use it with.
So unless Stardock plans to start making lots and lots of OD-only skins to make up for the lack of free ones on Wincustomize, I can't see many people being pleased about shelling out $60 to buy OD and then another $20 just to use it.
So unless Stardock plans to start making lots and lots of OD-only skins to make up for the lack of free ones on Wincustomize, I can't see many people being pleased about shelling out $60 to buy OD and then another $20 just to use it.
CerebroJD
Reply #51 Thursday, October 27, 2005 5:09 PM
Reply #51 Thursday, October 27, 2005 5:09 PM
Autumn, people who buy Stardock products will still get unlimited downloads on WinCustomize. That's been stated before, I believe. No use in people paying twice...
The people affected by the changes will mainly be the 'visitors' and the people who sign up for WinCustomize (but DONT have a subscription).
The people affected by the changes will mainly be the 'visitors' and the people who sign up for WinCustomize (but DONT have a subscription).
Autumnmist
Reply #52 Thursday, October 27, 2005 5:36 PM
I'm not worried about that so much as the fact that I'm not so sure that a good number of artists won't decide to not upload their free work to WC. That would result in WC losing its utility for SD customers.
What would be the solution then? Give artists "subscriptions" too? Who gets to be counted as an artist? Certainly not just everyone who uploads here (e.g. screenshots).. what about people who make really bad/useless skins? Or about people who do really nice work but are porters of msstyles and don't make their own WB skins?
I uploaded two Christmas-style OD themes a few years ago, but I certainly don't consider myself an artist.
Reply #52 Thursday, October 27, 2005 5:36 PM
| Autumn, people who buy Stardock products will still get unlimited downloads on WinCustomize. That's been stated before, I believe. No use in people paying twice... |
I'm not worried about that so much as the fact that I'm not so sure that a good number of artists won't decide to not upload their free work to WC. That would result in WC losing its utility for SD customers.
What would be the solution then? Give artists "subscriptions" too? Who gets to be counted as an artist? Certainly not just everyone who uploads here (e.g. screenshots).. what about people who make really bad/useless skins? Or about people who do really nice work but are porters of msstyles and don't make their own WB skins?
I uploaded two Christmas-style OD themes a few years ago, but I certainly don't consider myself an artist.
CerebroJD
Reply #53 Thursday, October 27, 2005 5:48 PM
Reply #53 Thursday, October 27, 2005 5:48 PM
Hmm, you have a good point about that. It wouldnt be right to keep actual artists from downloading if they didnt have a subscription, but then again, if they are creating skins, they most likely have purchased the programs they are skinning for...
Perhaps a 'choke point' of downloads, such as 1000, should be required... Just for reference, I wasnt able to download for 2.5 months between the time my 50 megabytes were exceeded and I purchased ObjectDesktop. Since I was skinning media player, I didnt need to own any Stardock products to do that, so I couldnt download.
Perhaps a 'choke point' of downloads, such as 1000, should be required... Just for reference, I wasnt able to download for 2.5 months between the time my 50 megabytes were exceeded and I purchased ObjectDesktop. Since I was skinning media player, I didnt need to own any Stardock products to do that, so I couldnt download.
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #54 Thursday, October 27, 2005 5:56 PM
Reply #54 Thursday, October 27, 2005 5:56 PM
I'm sure contributors to the site will be able to download, it only fair to receive if you have given
The problem is the massive amount of traffic vs the number of people who have purchased/contributed something. The site should be restricted to the latter, so they are the ones who benefit from the site.
Chef Garry
Reply #55 Thursday, October 27, 2005 6:19 PM
Reply #55 Thursday, October 27, 2005 6:19 PM
Autmnmist - you don't need to have a WC subscription to get skins. As has been mentioned by others, WB skins etc can be found from lots of other sites. We happen to think the best ones are here and certainly it's easier to get high quality stuff here than to check any number of other sites but you're not obligated.
As I understand it (and the solution I'm in favor of), a WC subscription would be required to download the skins here. The skins would still be free, just as they are at all those other sites. The subcription would be required to pay for the site costs and the subscriber pays for the privilage (let's not forget that it is a privilage, not a right) to download the stuff stored on Stardock's servers.
As someone stated above, just because you bought the car doesn't mean the gas is going to be free. Neither are the roads when you think about it.
As I understand it (and the solution I'm in favor of), a WC subscription would be required to download the skins here. The skins would still be free, just as they are at all those other sites. The subcription would be required to pay for the site costs and the subscriber pays for the privilage (let's not forget that it is a privilage, not a right) to download the stuff stored on Stardock's servers.
As someone stated above, just because you bought the car doesn't mean the gas is going to be free. Neither are the roads when you think about it.
sTonEbLuE
Reply #56 Thursday, October 27, 2005 6:20 PM
I suppose anyone who feels this way will piss someone off. And to those of you read this, I know you will read my profile just to see if "I" am a freeloader also. Go ahead and then come back........AND??
Ditto.... Sir Bichur...... 
Reply #56 Thursday, October 27, 2005 6:20 PM
| The skins are free (like in free speech, not in free beer ) work of the respective authors. If they upload it for free, I download them for free. Whether on WC or other places. If there won't be free sites, I won't download them. This is what I thought when bought OD. |
I suppose anyone who feels this way will piss someone off. And to those of you read this, I know you will read my profile just to see if "I" am a freeloader also. Go ahead and then come back........AND??
| Personally, the way I see it: If I did not subscibe here (being a customer/OD subscriber) I would get upset if y'all berated me. I was basically told being a customer and OD subscriber I was more than welcome to come get stuff. Seems to me part of my OD subscription should be applied here. I do not feel obligated to subscribe here since to me this place is part of Stardock - I subscribe here because I want to. |
Ditto.... Sir Bichur......
BluDrgnBoi
Reply #57 Thursday, October 27, 2005 6:31 PM
Reply #57 Thursday, October 27, 2005 6:31 PM
i could see not being able do download extra skins unless subsribed, but how would this affect the wb shareware program..it at least gives you a few skins to try out..will this remain free or will it be droped? with the release of 5.0 nearby, will it be available as the previous versions or will it be restricted to subscribers only? i would like to subscribe but i dont have a credit card and wondered if others had that kind of problem? also i like to come here to read forums and offer opinions on occasion not to download a bunch of skins..how will this be affected? 
Bichur
Reply #58 Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:02 PM
Reply #58 Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:02 PM
I did not mention skinners in my 1st post because 1) I consider all skinners here an integeral part of the site. If y'all didn't exist this site and others would not either. 2) being a nonskinner my only contribution is through my subscription and I have no idea how to work the skinner contribution vs access/download. One the one hand...free reign for the skinners 
on the other hand...what's to stop someone from uploading pure crap just snag downloads? on the good hand how to separate the crap for downloads vs 'I'm still learning and honestly trying'?
There is one thing I am sure about: I'm glad the headache is not mine.
on the other hand...what's to stop someone from uploading pure crap just snag downloads? on the good hand how to separate the crap for downloads vs 'I'm still learning and honestly trying'? There is one thing I am sure about: I'm glad the headache is not mine.
Jafo
Reply #59 Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:06 PM
Reply #59 Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:06 PM
| It's freeloaders like you I can't leave this unanswered. All I'm asking you is to read at least this comment. To start with: According to todays official policies I'm rather an appreciated community member, a level 4 user, than a freeloader. (Level 4: Current Stardock customer. These are users who have either purchased Object Desktop Network or some other Stardock product (Stardock is WinCustomize's sponser) within the last 2 years. These users get all the benefits of a registered user plus: * Unlimited File Downloads. Say good-bye to file limitations! No more annoying messages preventing you from getting your download to work.) Kind words. No bad languange. Then: In my comments I'm writing arguments why I think mandatory subscription is a wrong solution. Admitting that operating such a site must cost a fortune. In return I get answers like: You're sucking the blood of the community, get lost. Furthermore: I write, that I'm paying for the applications, and I'm stating that authors upload their work for free. (By means that THEY won't get paid.) In return I get answers like: Why do you think bandwidth and servers are free? You don't appreciate us. Then: I write that if I MUST subscribe for 20USD to download skins, I guess I rather consider stopping paying 50USD to renew my OD subscription, and I ask whether this is not a bigger threat by introducing such a new policy. In return I get answers like: we will have to shut down the site because of you, shame on you. And of course there are the always shiny happy people like: it's nice to join a community, I subscribe every 3 months. Which is their business. To be serious, I myself feel fed up wit the "go away you parasite, you won't get anything for free" comments, without getting a single comment on my arguments. I don't even know what am I doing here, this is not funny at all. I beg for a relevant comment on my arguments from "the other side". Finally forgive my poor english, I'd check back for answers before leaving wincustomize. BRGDS ethsza |
ethsza "it's freeloaders like you" was probably an unfortunate comment. It should have been aimed at an attitude to freely obtaining site content, and not to you, personally/specifically, so on behalf of the Wincustomize team please accept our apology.
Stardock customers ARE benefitting/contributing to the site, but what is needed is the site itself to effectively cover its OWN costs of existence....to make it self-sustaining/perpetuating....independent of and not dependent upon financial support from ANY outside source other than its own members.
Now, mostly the skinners/uploaders have absolutely no issue with the reality that hosting their works costs money and the most logical solution is 'user pays'....in other words, he who downloads content from this site needs to pay to do so.
This works in EXACTLY the same way that a car owner must buy tyres and petrol each time they are needed/wanted....even AFTER already buying the car itself. The Stardock software, just like the car does not come with an endless supply of 'consumables'.....at least, they SHOULDN'T.
Currently, the Wincustomize socio-economic model has people being 'rewarded' with full access to content thanks to their own 'contribution/s', be that subscription, Current SD Customer, or skinner/site contributor [the latter through promotion 'level'].
All this is well and good, except not enough of the 3 million visitors are in one of these categories. They 'contribute' nothing to the site's commercial viability.......YET.
The Status Quo [not the group] needs to change. It should NOT be about current contributors buying more frequent subs...or ones for others as gifts.
It SHOULD be about each and every site visitor's willingness to support the site and contribute by paying for that which he is so eager to receive.
If he won't do that without a push then there needs must be a push.....one that cannot be side-stepped...
Bichur
Reply #60 Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:10 PM
oh crap. another issue.
timed trial with no restrictions and a partial subscript to go with it?
you download and install...box pops up and registers you for 30 or 60 days here.
Reply #60 Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:10 PM
| but how would this affect the wb shareware program. |
oh crap. another issue.
timed trial with no restrictions and a partial subscript to go with it?
you download and install...box pops up and registers you for 30 or 60 days here.
Please login to comment and/or vote for this skin.
Welcome Guest! Please take the time to register with us.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
- Richer content, access to many features that are disabled for guests like commenting on the forums and downloading skins.
- Access to a great community, with a massive database of many, many areas of interest.
- Access to contests & subscription offers like exclusive emails.
- It's simple, and FREE!
|
|
Page 3 of 7 | |
|
|---|
Reply #41 Thursday, October 27, 2005 12:28 PM
So I look foward to getting my own copy of every software from StarDock. They are all amazing. I do how ever have the problem of not having credit and therefor no credit card to use on the internet. I am also not currently able to spend money on non-necesary items, such as this software, so it might be a while before I can save up enough for, say, Object Desktop (which I want so bad).
When I started out here, about a few months ago I never figured I had a limit to DLing. Man I should read more often. I knew about the subscription but I figured it was to access more better stuff and so far, being a newb, was happy with what I was getting. It now seems worth subscribing to get the better stuff and more but once again my financial position stops me from doing so. I would hate to think that I will not be able to access this site anymore for I found it so great and a great software as well for a PC fanatic like me. I can understand if my subscription or what ever it is called was canceled after this post I can understand and I appologize completely. I hope everything goes well for you guys and thanx for allowing me the pleasure of enjoying such a great site like this one, which BTW pointed me to another great site, joeuser.com which I like and enjoy writing and reading at. Thanx again and good luck.