Does Apple get away with things Microsoft could not?
Double standards in the platform wars
Tuesday, May 10, 2005 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
Imagine this scenario: Longhorn comes out and Windows Movie Maker, Remote Desktop, and Outlook Express were no longer part of the OS. Instead, Microsoft included them in a seperate $70 package. And then imagine that Longhorn was essentially a Windows XP Service Pack 3 with a bundled Google Desktop Search like function, a Lite version the DesktopX Run-Time, and a few other niceties. How do you think people would react? How do you think the media would react? Probably not with glowing praise.
But that's exactly what has happened with Apple. A few years ago, Apple was touting MacOS X as the way to make movies and DVDs and manage your photos and other such things. It included a pretty nice DVD making program and a pretty strong movie making program. But as the latest version of MacOS X shows, Apple has no problem removing significant programs from its OS and charging for them seperately. Some might say that's the ultimate "bait and switch". Whatever you want to call it, I think most would agree that if Microsoft had done the same thing, there'd probably be something just short of a riot.
That isn't to say MacOS X Tiger isn't a great operating system -- it is. But while people are fawning praise upon Apple and their OS-making abilities, people also need to take a step back, put down the Steve Jobs brand Kool-Aid and take a serious look at what they're getting for their $129 upgrade. Of course, any time anyone criticizes Apple or the Mac, even in the most mild form, the Mac zealots come out to vigorously defend it. This in turn makes reasoned discussion a lot more difficult. But one Mac/PC user, Paul Boyer, has written an article that gives his experiences with Tiger.
Paul Boyer, has created countless skins, themes, and of course his incredible packages of icons that have been freely downloaded by millions of people uses his computers as tools to do everything from graphics design to recording TV shows. And he's just upgraded to MacOS Tiger. He's not an OS advocate. He's not hard core. He's a more typical, casual consumer. And he's not happy. While he can appreciate the improvements in Tiger, he also feels he's getting jerked around a bit by Apple. People criticize Microsoft as the evil empire and yet some of the actions Apple takes seem to be pretty bold. Read the whole article with an open mind and let us know what you think.
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Eroticus Prime
Reply #42 Wednesday, May 11, 2005 9:24 PM
I'd rather trust a company that isn't a convicted monopolist over one that is.
Reply #42 Wednesday, May 11, 2005 9:24 PM
| I trust Apple a lot less than I trust Microsoft. |
I'd rather trust a company that isn't a convicted monopolist over one that is.
spacepants
Reply #43 Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:30 PM
Stop paying or antivirus: http://free.grisoft.com/doc/2/lng/us/tpl/v5 AVGfree
Who buy's roxio? Folks who use it are usually stuck with it because it came with their burner... nero is like $80 bucks.
Works? OpenOffice is as good as Works, and free.
But all this is moot in a world where those with the knowhow to build their own PC will probably pirate the software they want. This might be cynical and over-generalized, but that's how I feel.
Reply #43 Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:30 PM
| XP Home upgrade + Roxio's Easy Media Creator + Works 8 + Norton Antivirus = 99$ + 69.95 + 49.95$ + 49.95$ = 268.85$ |
Stop paying or antivirus: http://free.grisoft.com/doc/2/lng/us/tpl/v5 AVGfree
Who buy's roxio? Folks who use it are usually stuck with it because it came with their burner... nero is like $80 bucks.
Works? OpenOffice is as good as Works, and free.
But all this is moot in a world where those with the knowhow to build their own PC will probably pirate the software they want. This might be cynical and over-generalized, but that's how I feel.
Chi Chi Rodriguez
Reply #44 Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:43 PM
And I prefer a company that's under constant investigation by national, international, public, and private organizations around the world making sure the company provides quality products and plays fair instead of one thats playing under the radar.
I trust companies that are honest about their motivation: money. Not ones that try and play on my personal beliefs.
Reply #44 Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:43 PM
| I'd rather trust a company that isn't a convicted monopolist over on that is. |
And I prefer a company that's under constant investigation by national, international, public, and private organizations around the world making sure the company provides quality products and plays fair instead of one thats playing under the radar.
I trust companies that are honest about their motivation: money. Not ones that try and play on my personal beliefs.
Eroticus Prime
Reply #45 Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:59 PM
Reply #45 Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:59 PM
Valid point, Jafo, can't really argue with what you said first, but what exactly can't a Mac handle?
TexasJoe:
I'm not saying the Mac is a strong gaming platform, but there are enough games for it (Doom 3, UT2K4, World of Warcraft, ...) for the average casual gamer to be satisfied with it. Clearly that's not you, so stick with the PC for that reason, not false ones.
It is 100% compatible with standards compliant code, that's why it exists.
Taken from Wikipedia:
So if it's not loading, you (or the web designers if you don't mean pages you've written and tested yourself) are not coding it right.
Naturally, ATi and nVidia sell more cards to PC users so there would be a bigger range. That's not to say that Radeon 7x00s, 8x00s, 9x00s, Xx00s and GeForce 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s and 6s haven't been available in prebuilt Macs and or (many) available for separate purchase, because they have. As I said, the range, of course, is not as big, but it's still there. About the drivers, what you say sounds like speculation to me, but (for argument's sake I'll assume you're right), consistent to what I've already said, they sell more cards for PCs, so they'd invest more time and effort in the drivers for those cards.
So when you spell fast, you hold down shift unnecessarily and add in extra punctuation.
Ooh, and you're a homophobe too. Oh, no, don't tell me, let me guess: you don't actually have anything against homosexuals, you just use gay as a derogatory term because everyone else does? What, can't you think for yourself? Of course you can't, what was I thinking?! You're a Windoze user!
Hahaha! Good one! That laptop has no more video card upgradability than any Mac, in fact less than any Power Mac.
paxx:
I'm afraid you're wrong. There are no viruses on OS X. Not a single one. Didn't you hear about the guy a short while ago promising to pay some outrageous amount of money to the person who could program the first virus for OS X?
starkers:
It already exists. It's called OS X.
Maybe that's why people are so disappointed with Tiger. It's hard to improve something that's already so perfect. And no need to pay triple the asking price, it costs less than XP Pro.
(.. of course I'm not being completely serious here, but OS X is the closest OS to perfection I've ever seen.)
Chi Chi Rodriguez:
I don't understand what you're saying about Apple. Care to elaborate?
TexasJoe:
| Games developpers ain't big on Macs because it's all about money: designing games for a platform that's not popular is a waste of time. |
I'm not saying the Mac is a strong gaming platform, but there are enough games for it (Doom 3, UT2K4, World of Warcraft, ...) for the average casual gamer to be satisfied with it. Clearly that's not you, so stick with the PC for that reason, not false ones.
| Firefox (also available on Mac) is not 100% compatible |
It is 100% compatible with standards compliant code, that's why it exists.
| IE: it's the most standards-compliant browser. I tested'em all, there's always something not loading in Safari or Mac's IE version (javascript, forms, tables...). |
Taken from Wikipedia:
| Users switching from Internet Explorer sometimes experience that some websites do not render correctly in Firefox [this can obviously also be applied to other standards-compliant browsers]. This is almost always due to the said website using non standards-compliant Internet Explorer specific code or ActiveX applets on their site. |
So if it's not loading, you (or the web designers if you don't mean pages you've written and tested yourself) are not coding it right.
| if you have a PC, you sure have more cards to choose from and better optimized driver. Now try proving me wrong. |
Naturally, ATi and nVidia sell more cards to PC users so there would be a bigger range. That's not to say that Radeon 7x00s, 8x00s, 9x00s, Xx00s and GeForce 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s and 6s haven't been available in prebuilt Macs and or (many) available for separate purchase, because they have. As I said, the range, of course, is not as big, but it's still there. About the drivers, what you say sounds like speculation to me, but (for argument's sake I'll assume you're right), consistent to what I've already said, they sell more cards for PCs, so they'd invest more time and effort in the drivers for those cards.
| On the other hand calling me an idiot for spelling fast is so gay. |
So when you spell fast, you hold down shift unnecessarily and add in extra punctuation.
Ooh, and you're a homophobe too. Oh, no, don't tell me, let me guess: you don't actually have anything against homosexuals, you just use gay as a derogatory term because everyone else does? What, can't you think for yourself? Of course you can't, what was I thinking?! You're a Windoze user!
| I can take that same good ol' laptop of mine and play HL2 with full details. |
Hahaha! Good one! That laptop has no more video card upgradability than any Mac, in fact less than any Power Mac.
paxx:
| there are indeed viruses on OSX. Not as many as on the PC, but they are there nevertheless. |
I'm afraid you're wrong. There are no viruses on OS X. Not a single one. Didn't you hear about the guy a short while ago promising to pay some outrageous amount of money to the person who could program the first virus for OS X?
starkers:
| When the PERFECT OS comes out - I'll pay triple the asking price |
It already exists. It's called OS X.
Maybe that's why people are so disappointed with Tiger. It's hard to improve something that's already so perfect. And no need to pay triple the asking price, it costs less than XP Pro.(.. of course I'm not being completely serious here, but OS X is the closest OS to perfection I've ever seen.)
Chi Chi Rodriguez:
| I trust companies that are honest about their motivation: money. Not ones that try and play on my personal beliefs. |
I don't understand what you're saying about Apple. Care to elaborate?
TexasJoe
Reply #46 Thursday, May 12, 2005 3:54 AM
Reply #46 Thursday, May 12, 2005 3:54 AM
"Users switching from Internet Explorer sometimes experience that some websites do not render correctly in Firefox [this can obviously also be applied to other standards-compliant browsers]. This is almost always due to the said website using non standards-compliant Internet Explorer specific code or ActiveX applets on their site."
Whatever. I can't do anything about it. All I know is that at least 1/3 of the webpages I visit only come right in MS Internet Explorer. I don't care how they coded xxML codes. All I care is about the results, like most of us do. I guess. My logic would go as far as to say that due to the exponentially increasing number of Internet pages, it's the responsibility of the browser's developers to ensure full compliance. Then standards-compliance seems to prove insufficient. Please feel free to disagree like you always do.
"What, can't you think for yourself? Of course you can't, what was I thinking?! You're a Windoze user!"
I use Windows not because I'm devoid of self-thinking abilities. My choice of OS is backed up by full knowledge that Mac OS 10.2 (the version that I've tested for months) falls short of Windows XP in terms of ergonomics and productivity. I started using it with an open mind, ready to think different. Still no matter how much good will I put into it, it wouldn't let me do comparatively as much as with Windows XP in a given time. Some folks are more productive with Windows. Others feel more comfortable with OS X. Others yet will just stick with their initial choice stubbornly (though they may just be happy with it, which doesn't mean they're stupid). I ain't one of'em, right.
"So when you spell fast, you hold down shift unnecessarily and add in extra punctuation."
I might've added in extra punctuation unconsciously to make sure I was getting my point across and you interpreted it right, without twisting all I say.
"Hahaha! Good one! That laptop has no more video card upgradability than any Mac, in fact less than any Power Mac."
Here some news for y'all: PCI-Express and MXM technology.
"There are no viruses on OS X."
Though I don't reckon Mac users should need any antivirus software. I'm sure I read somewhere an account of a worm inoculation on Mac OS platform. Mac OS X getting increasingly popular is also in the same process getting attractive to virus coders, whereby arises these offers of Mac OS-based antiviruses by traditional Windows antivirus developers! I'm not sure though the risk is that significant yet.
Whatever. I can't do anything about it. All I know is that at least 1/3 of the webpages I visit only come right in MS Internet Explorer. I don't care how they coded xxML codes. All I care is about the results, like most of us do. I guess. My logic would go as far as to say that due to the exponentially increasing number of Internet pages, it's the responsibility of the browser's developers to ensure full compliance. Then standards-compliance seems to prove insufficient. Please feel free to disagree like you always do.
"What, can't you think for yourself? Of course you can't, what was I thinking?! You're a Windoze user!"
I use Windows not because I'm devoid of self-thinking abilities. My choice of OS is backed up by full knowledge that Mac OS 10.2 (the version that I've tested for months) falls short of Windows XP in terms of ergonomics and productivity. I started using it with an open mind, ready to think different. Still no matter how much good will I put into it, it wouldn't let me do comparatively as much as with Windows XP in a given time. Some folks are more productive with Windows. Others feel more comfortable with OS X. Others yet will just stick with their initial choice stubbornly (though they may just be happy with it, which doesn't mean they're stupid). I ain't one of'em, right.
"So when you spell fast, you hold down shift unnecessarily and add in extra punctuation."
I might've added in extra punctuation unconsciously to make sure I was getting my point across and you interpreted it right, without twisting all I say.
"Hahaha! Good one! That laptop has no more video card upgradability than any Mac, in fact less than any Power Mac."
Here some news for y'all: PCI-Express and MXM technology.
"There are no viruses on OS X."
Though I don't reckon Mac users should need any antivirus software. I'm sure I read somewhere an account of a worm inoculation on Mac OS platform. Mac OS X getting increasingly popular is also in the same process getting attractive to virus coders, whereby arises these offers of Mac OS-based antiviruses by traditional Windows antivirus developers! I'm not sure though the risk is that significant yet.
Eroticus Prime
Reply #47 Thursday, May 12, 2005 5:08 AM
Happily. If the Firefox developers added support for non-standards compliant code, that would encourage people not to bother making their code standards compliant, which would defeat the purpose of implementing standards in the first place (which exist so pages look and function the same no matter what browser or platform you're using).
Actually, I didn't know about MXM, quite impressive.
Reply #47 Thursday, May 12, 2005 5:08 AM
| it's the responsibility of the browser's developers to ensure full compliance. Then standards-compliance is not enough. Feel free to disagree like you always do. |
Happily. If the Firefox developers added support for non-standards compliant code, that would encourage people not to bother making their code standards compliant, which would defeat the purpose of implementing standards in the first place (which exist so pages look and function the same no matter what browser or platform you're using).
| Here some news for y'all: PCI-Express and MXM technology. |
Actually, I didn't know about MXM, quite impressive.
paxx
Reply #48 Thursday, May 12, 2005 5:09 AM
Nope, you're wrong. There are a few, one of them is called "Opener". The difference is that the Mac ones yet don't spread automatically, they have to spread manually. They can be disguised as something else, such as a new security update (ex: the PhantomUpdate exploit) or as an MP3 (ex: the MP3virus.gen proof of concept). The first Mac OS X virus came out in 2003 : the MP3virus proof of concept wasn't so damageable, but just a proof of concept and just displayed a dialog, proving that OS X could indeed be attacked.
But it's pretty much a fact that OS X isn't perfect and more viruses will come out as time goes by.
Also
Yes, it was DVForge offering $25,000, and the reward wasn't to write just any virus, as they already exist, but one that would spread by itself. But did you hear also that the project was canceled?
Reply #48 Thursday, May 12, 2005 5:09 AM
| There are no viruses on OS X. Not a single one. |
Nope, you're wrong. There are a few, one of them is called "Opener". The difference is that the Mac ones yet don't spread automatically, they have to spread manually. They can be disguised as something else, such as a new security update (ex: the PhantomUpdate exploit) or as an MP3 (ex: the MP3virus.gen proof of concept). The first Mac OS X virus came out in 2003 : the MP3virus proof of concept wasn't so damageable, but just a proof of concept and just displayed a dialog, proving that OS X could indeed be attacked.
But it's pretty much a fact that OS X isn't perfect and more viruses will come out as time goes by.
Also
| Didn't you hear about the guy a short while ago promising to pay some outrageous amount of money to the person who could program the first virus for OS X? |
Yes, it was DVForge offering $25,000, and the reward wasn't to write just any virus, as they already exist, but one that would spread by itself. But did you hear also that the project was canceled?
Eroticus Prime
Reply #49 Thursday, May 12, 2005 5:37 AM
Reply #49 Thursday, May 12, 2005 5:37 AM
I'm pretty sure those exploits were patched, and Opener's just a malware script, not a real virus. 
Heh, after a quick Google search, look what I found: http://www.lindqvist.com/index.php?ID=1735 You'd have to be pretty stupid to infect yourself with that.
And yes, I did hear the contest was cancelled, but I couldn't remember the details earlier and didn't think mentioning it was particularly relevant.
Heh, after a quick Google search, look what I found: http://www.lindqvist.com/index.php?ID=1735 You'd have to be pretty stupid to infect yourself with that.
And yes, I did hear the contest was cancelled, but I couldn't remember the details earlier and didn't think mentioning it was particularly relevant.
Essencay
Reply #50 Thursday, May 12, 2005 6:54 AM
I built my last three PC's....I purchase my software as I would bet that 99.9% of the folks here do. You're not being cynical and over-generalized, you're just making an uneducated assinine assumption.
Reply #50 Thursday, May 12, 2005 6:54 AM
| But all this is moot in a world where those with the knowhow to build their own PC will probably pirate the software they want. This might be cynical and over-generalized, but that's how I feel. |
I built my last three PC's....I purchase my software as I would bet that 99.9% of the folks here do. You're not being cynical and over-generalized, you're just making an uneducated assinine assumption.
Eroticus Prime
Reply #51 Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:26 AM
I'm sorry, but I think you're being naïve and giving the general populace too much credit as a whole. Not everyone's as moral as you.
Reply #51 Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:26 AM
| I purchase my software as I would bet that 99.9% of the folks here do. |
I'm sorry, but I think you're being naïve and giving the general populace too much credit as a whole. Not everyone's as moral as you.
spacepants
Reply #52 Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:39 AM
Ever lived on a college campus this millennium? I would hardly call the statement asinine, nor would I call it uneducated.
Speaking of uneducated assumptions, where did you get this 99.9% statistic, eh? I admitted my cynicism, no need to call me asinine.
I am glad you purchase all of your software; it seems rare this day in age (yes, another cynical comment from me). And I’m sorry you took personal offense to my statement.
Reply #52 Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:39 AM
| you're just making an uneducated assinine assumption |
Ever lived on a college campus this millennium? I would hardly call the statement asinine, nor would I call it uneducated.
| .I purchase my software as I would bet that 99.9% of the folks here do. |
Speaking of uneducated assumptions, where did you get this 99.9% statistic, eh? I admitted my cynicism, no need to call me asinine.
I am glad you purchase all of your software; it seems rare this day in age (yes, another cynical comment from me). And I’m sorry you took personal offense to my statement.
Jafo
Reply #53 Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:50 AM
Reply #53 Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:50 AM
JoeUser aside...the average age of frequenters of Wincustomize.com, and in particular its skinners is well out of nappies [diapers] and is surprisingly not all that likely to be quite like your average smells-like-teen-spirit "OMG Napster just died what AM I to do for my warez?" kiddies who may be closer to your socio-economic circles.
Yes, everyone loves playing 'rash-generaliser' but don't be too certain you know everyone here...
...or anywhere...
Jafo
Reply #54 Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:53 AM
Reply #54 Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:53 AM
Forgot to add...21 and 23 puts you both well below the average...
spacepants
Reply #55 Thursday, May 12, 2005 8:31 AM
I certainly can’t deny that, Jafo
. I do not want to imply that the "frequenters of Wincustomize.com" engage in any software stealing. My statements were based on observations of those around where I have lived for the past four years (a dormitory, just graduated, hallelujah).
Sorry to get things so off topic.
Reply #55 Thursday, May 12, 2005 8:31 AM
| kiddies who may be closer to your socio-economic circles |
I certainly can’t deny that, Jafo
. I do not want to imply that the "frequenters of Wincustomize.com" engage in any software stealing. My statements were based on observations of those around where I have lived for the past four years (a dormitory, just graduated, hallelujah).Sorry to get things so off topic.
Jafo
Reply #56 Thursday, May 12, 2005 8:47 AM
Reply #56 Thursday, May 12, 2005 8:47 AM
Back on topic....my guess is that Apple DOES get away with 'things'...in comparison with MS.
MS is always portrayed as 'all-that-is-evil-in-the-world' so is closely scrutinised, whereas the glorious 'Apple Mac' is a joy to behold...symbolizing the David/Goliath underdog nice-guy mentality that DOESNOWRONG.
So while the cat's away.....
TexasJoe
Reply #57 Thursday, May 12, 2005 9:50 AM
Reply #57 Thursday, May 12, 2005 9:50 AM
Boy howdy! that sure is a smooth transition!
hint: cough**itunes**cough cough
hint: cough**itunes**cough cough
jtfolden
Reply #58 Thursday, May 12, 2005 6:10 PM
Reply #58 Thursday, May 12, 2005 6:10 PM
No, Paxx, my original statement is correct. I've used OS X since the week of release back in 2001 and am quite aware of the situation. If you even knew what "Opener" was then you wouldn't call it a virus. Likewise the MP3Concept application was an example of a Finder level exploit that has long been patched now. Neither was self-propating and the former required someone to have root level access to install it. There are ZERO viruses for OS X in the wild. So for Mac users there is zero need to spend money on AV software as there is nothing it can protect you from. Now when the day finally comes that a virus actually exists in the wild to effect me, it would then perhaps make sense to arm ones self but at this point it's a waste of $$$ to buy Norton upgrades every year. As for my Windows using co-workers and friends... it's up to them to protect themselves. 
XP Home is missing many features from Pro that are comparable and commonly used by Mac users on OS X so Pro is the correct choice: EFS, Multiple languages out of the box, Access Control, among others... Home is less secure. Comparable networking features (ease of use is not being debated). These are certainly more commonly useful than AV software on OS X.
XP Home is missing many features from Pro that are comparable and commonly used by Mac users on OS X so Pro is the correct choice: EFS, Multiple languages out of the box, Access Control, among others... Home is less secure. Comparable networking features (ease of use is not being debated). These are certainly more commonly useful than AV software on OS X.
WOWfactor.555.
Reply #59 Thursday, May 12, 2005 6:22 PM
Reply #59 Thursday, May 12, 2005 6:22 PM
Not That I Want To Get Involved With The Whole Windows Vs Macs Debate, But One Thing
Caught My Eye.
Paxx Is Right, DVForge Is The Name and The Guy Behind It Is a Fellow Who Calls
Himself "PowerJack" over At www.spymac.com He's Pretty Much a Joke In The Mac Community And A Convicted Fellon. The Competition Was Pulled Because (According To PowerJack) He Was Advised To Do So From a Friend Lawyer. In Short He Pulled It Because It Is Against The Law To Make a Contest Like His. The Person I'm Quoting Seems To Be a Stock Apple Eating Mactivist (They Are Two a Penny Over At Spymac) Please Don't Use That Poor Excuse For a Buisness Man As An Example For So Called Mac Purity.
But Since You're So Sure Macs Are Completly Protected From Any Malicious Activity. Assuming You're Using Tiger + Safari With Safari's Default Settings, Click Here http: / / stephan.com/widgets/zaptastic/
Caught My Eye.
| I'm afraid you're wrong. There are no viruses on OS X. Not a single one. Didn't you hear about the guy a short while ago promising to pay some outrageous amount of money to the person who could program the first virus for OS X? |
Paxx Is Right, DVForge Is The Name and The Guy Behind It Is a Fellow Who Calls
Himself "PowerJack" over At www.spymac.com He's Pretty Much a Joke In The Mac Community And A Convicted Fellon. The Competition Was Pulled Because (According To PowerJack) He Was Advised To Do So From a Friend Lawyer. In Short He Pulled It Because It Is Against The Law To Make a Contest Like His. The Person I'm Quoting Seems To Be a Stock Apple Eating Mactivist (They Are Two a Penny Over At Spymac) Please Don't Use That Poor Excuse For a Buisness Man As An Example For So Called Mac Purity.
But Since You're So Sure Macs Are Completly Protected From Any Malicious Activity. Assuming You're Using Tiger + Safari With Safari's Default Settings, Click Here http: / / stephan.com/widgets/zaptastic/
Jafo
Reply #60 Thursday, May 12, 2005 6:49 PM
Reply #60 Thursday, May 12, 2005 6:49 PM
WOWfactor.555. ...PLEASE DO NOT DIRECT-LINK TO ANY MALICIOUS SCRIPT FOR ANY REASON.
That is not acceptable.
Sure it may 'just' be 'annoying', as the site mentions, and so is your typing style. The latter can be ignored, the former will not be.
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Reply #41 Wednesday, May 11, 2005 9:17 PM