Rating skins
A screenshot is NOT the skin
Friday, February 4, 2005 by Jafo | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
It beggars the question how someone thinks they can rate a Litestep theme, or a Dx theme ....or any equivalent 'complex' skin....WB, WA, WMP, etc when all they are likely to know of it is the screenshot....as they do not DL and run the work, or even have not ever used the program.
A screenshot is one happy snap of [as example, an LS theme...perhaps 1600 lines of hand-written code and hundreds of images taking weeks to create] ....yet some twit will go 'der...look at dat piccie...ho-hum' and consign the work to the depths of obscurity for no valid reason than their own ignorance.
Rate the skin/theme...not its 'pretty picture'.
If you are not genuinely knowledgable about a particular skinning 'field', take the initiative to opt-out of judging it at all.
You will only do the skinners and their work a gross injustice...[and raise people's ire]...
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RomanDA
Reply #62 Sunday, February 6, 2005 2:10 PM
I agree 100%, I look at the comments a LOT more then the rating. I want to see what people have to say about something i have spent hours and hours (and weeks in some case) workiking on. And if you are going to leave a comment, make it something constructive, not de-structive. I just think that the "great job" comments are mainly ignored. I like to see things like "the animation works great, or its nice but the animation sucks" Something like that is much more constructive to the process of growing as a skinner.
And if the comments are linked to the ratings then i can really see who thinks what about my skins. I also think that if I (as a user) could see who rated my skins and what they rated them, it might help cut down on the people that want to slam someone else, that is if they knew i could see it was THEM who was nailing my skins, they might not do it.
Who know, This is a hard subject to know the "right" answer for. I do think that if it went as follows.
1. Download to be able comment
2. Comment to be able to Rate
3. Rating is displayed in the comments title
It might help this all work out better.
Reply #62 Sunday, February 6, 2005 2:10 PM
| My own personal view on ratings, long known here, is that ratings should be attached to comments. You can then see who rated, and read why they think the rating should be so. |
I agree 100%, I look at the comments a LOT more then the rating. I want to see what people have to say about something i have spent hours and hours (and weeks in some case) workiking on. And if you are going to leave a comment, make it something constructive, not de-structive. I just think that the "great job" comments are mainly ignored. I like to see things like "the animation works great, or its nice but the animation sucks" Something like that is much more constructive to the process of growing as a skinner.
And if the comments are linked to the ratings then i can really see who thinks what about my skins. I also think that if I (as a user) could see who rated my skins and what they rated them, it might help cut down on the people that want to slam someone else, that is if they knew i could see it was THEM who was nailing my skins, they might not do it.
Who know, This is a hard subject to know the "right" answer for. I do think that if it went as follows.
1. Download to be able comment
2. Comment to be able to Rate
3. Rating is displayed in the comments title
It might help this all work out better.
Boss019
Reply #63 Sunday, February 6, 2005 2:37 PM
Reply #63 Sunday, February 6, 2005 2:37 PM
Fuzzy and Roman, that seems to me to be the absolute best way to do it if it could be implemented, the drive-bys wouldn't happen because it takes too much time..I mean, gee, download it, try it, actually leave a comment and then rate it...hell, you could only do a few of those in an hour, pretty hard to get to be "#1 Skin Commenter" or "#1 Skin Rater", which seems to be important to some as much as they protest that they don't care about ratings 
Corky_O
Reply #64 Sunday, February 6, 2005 2:54 PM
Reply #64 Sunday, February 6, 2005 2:54 PM
"My own personal view on ratings, long known here, is that ratings should be attached to comments. You can then see who rated, and read why they think the rating should be so." 
If a change is made, this seems very fair to me. I would love to receive feedback that will help me improve my skills (which can always use improvement as far as I am concerned).
Great idea, Fuzzy.
If a change is made, this seems very fair to me. I would love to receive feedback that will help me improve my skills (which can always use improvement as far as I am concerned).
Great idea, Fuzzy.
Koasati
Reply #65 Sunday, February 6, 2005 3:20 PM
Reply #65 Sunday, February 6, 2005 3:20 PM
| Screen Shot (1-9) Usability (1-9) Appearance (1-9) |
Unless you're rating an upload to the SceenShot library, the screenshot shouldn't enter into the rating mix. You're supposed to rating the skin. Replace that entry with ORIGINALITY, and you have a good guide for rating.
sssnake
Reply #66 Sunday, February 6, 2005 5:19 PM
Reply #66 Sunday, February 6, 2005 5:19 PM
I agree with some Roman's (#50) and Weaksid's (#56) suggestions, and want to add something - number of downloads should be a part of the rating (something like average number of downloads per week), appearance, usability and some specific depending on type of skin as well but not screenshot. Rating the screenshot has NOTHING to do with rating the skin. It should just help skinners to present it in the best possible way (if they want to do so, I usually get bored when I make a screenshot 
). For the end, just to add some words to #53 post - it is offensive "I hate it". It's someone's insulting opinion and if that was so bad, it wouldn't pass through moderation.
). For the end, just to add some words to #53 post - it is offensive "I hate it". It's someone's insulting opinion and if that was so bad, it wouldn't pass through moderation.
Sleeping Dragon
Reply #67 Sunday, February 6, 2005 5:58 PM
I agree. I believe that # of downloads should somehow effect the rating. I have some stuff rated a 4 that got twice the number of downloads as something rated a 7. This may have to do with the initial subjective rating, and then just a few people rating after that. But if it could, then, get percentage points for downloads it would be a very fair representation of how much the public likes it.
Reply #67 Sunday, February 6, 2005 5:58 PM
| number of downloads should be a part of the rating (something like average number of downloads per week |
I agree. I believe that # of downloads should somehow effect the rating. I have some stuff rated a 4 that got twice the number of downloads as something rated a 7. This may have to do with the initial subjective rating, and then just a few people rating after that. But if it could, then, get percentage points for downloads it would be a very fair representation of how much the public likes it.
Jafo
Reply #68 Sunday, February 6, 2005 6:18 PM
Reply #68 Sunday, February 6, 2005 6:18 PM
Choice of language was intended as an indicator of abject frustration that 'some people' are so stupid they believe they are not doing anything 'wrong'.
Nay...
Correction...they voice publicly they do not believe they are doing anything wrong. Privately they have an agenda....whether it is to be 'number one rater' or to usurp the status of their competition.... whatever, It does not, has not gone unnoticed.
If they do not 'see' the error of their ways and 'get it right' it can be done FOR them....through removal of the ability to rate....
gef
Reply #69 Sunday, February 6, 2005 6:36 PM
Reply #69 Sunday, February 6, 2005 6:36 PM
Firstly, why not make it possible to only be able to rate a skin if you download it first.
Secondly, as jafo said,how can anyone rate a skin if they themselves don't know how to create one. By this, I mean they would not know how much work and effort has gone into creating it in the first place and it is impossible to judge a skin by just looking at a screenshot.
Thirdly, everyone's taste is different. If all users had the same tastes it would be very boring!
A final thought - what would be the outcome if we did not have a rating system? It would stop all the fuss and everyone would be equal! If you like it - download it. If you don't like it - don't download it.
OK - When's the next contest ?
Secondly, as jafo said,how can anyone rate a skin if they themselves don't know how to create one. By this, I mean they would not know how much work and effort has gone into creating it in the first place and it is impossible to judge a skin by just looking at a screenshot.
Thirdly, everyone's taste is different. If all users had the same tastes it would be very boring!
A final thought - what would be the outcome if we did not have a rating system? It would stop all the fuss and everyone would be equal! If you like it - download it. If you don't like it - don't download it.
OK - When's the next contest ?
Sleeping Dragon
Reply #70 Sunday, February 6, 2005 6:51 PM
I'm ready to watch a "Skin Down". I also would be in favor of no ratings, but it is what it is, and I will deal with it the way it is. If I don't like it, I'm free to leave just like anyone else.
mmm ...think I'll stay and continue to enjoy the great skins and great folks here.
Reply #70 Sunday, February 6, 2005 6:51 PM
| OK - When's the next contest |
I'm ready to watch a "Skin Down". I also would be in favor of no ratings, but it is what it is, and I will deal with it the way it is. If I don't like it, I'm free to leave just like anyone else.
mmm ...think I'll stay and continue to enjoy the great skins and great folks here.
Ingui
Reply #71 Sunday, February 6, 2005 7:27 PM
Probably a good Idea, which I can tie into the second point
As far as not knowing how to create a skin... I don't know how to fly a plane, but I know If I had a good flight. I couldnt tell you about the people on other planes, but my own flight? yeah, I was there, it was smooth, on time, etc. As long as I tried it, I am competent enough to decide if I like it.
I still don't understand why ratings are anonymous adj. : Having no distinctive character or recognition factor
By that definition I would say they don't merit any attention at all. And yet they get alot of it here. And I well understand why. ( side note: The ratings have been kind to me. I don't think I have ever personally been slammed, though I have my doubts about one skin I made. Loads of great comments and a low rating. ) You work hard at something, share it for free, and see some obscure number attached to it. What does it mean? Does everyone think it's a 6? Or does evryone think it's a 2 and one chap was nice enough to give me a 9? Or was it a 9 and one user really didnt like it? Or did I just get hit by a "drive-by" rater?
If I saw in my comments
"Hey, nice skin but..." RATING: 6
"Best skin ever made!" RATING: 10
"Great Job..." RATING: 7
"My mother could..." RATING: 1
"This is pretty nice" RATING: 6
"Not sure I like..." Rating: 4
Now things make a little sense. My skin is pretty good. 6 maybe 7. A few things become obvious, to everyone. The guy whose mother skins better than me should be banned. My skin is NOT the "best skin ever" although one devoted ingui fan thinks so
One user really didn't care for the skin in whole or in part. I have a 4 and a comment to tell me how to improve that rating in the future. BTW - Do I hunt that user down and stalk him/her on the boards and rate any of their submissions low in retribution? A nasty email? One forward to an admin, Like I said, becomes kinda obvious and I'd be banned with the guy who threw me a one.
Reply #71 Sunday, February 6, 2005 7:27 PM
| Firstly, why not make it possible to only be able to rate a skin if you download it first. |
Probably a good Idea, which I can tie into the second point
As far as not knowing how to create a skin... I don't know how to fly a plane, but I know If I had a good flight. I couldnt tell you about the people on other planes, but my own flight? yeah, I was there, it was smooth, on time, etc. As long as I tried it, I am competent enough to decide if I like it.
I still don't understand why ratings are anonymous adj. : Having no distinctive character or recognition factor
By that definition I would say they don't merit any attention at all. And yet they get alot of it here. And I well understand why. ( side note: The ratings have been kind to me. I don't think I have ever personally been slammed, though I have my doubts about one skin I made. Loads of great comments and a low rating. ) You work hard at something, share it for free, and see some obscure number attached to it. What does it mean? Does everyone think it's a 6? Or does evryone think it's a 2 and one chap was nice enough to give me a 9? Or was it a 9 and one user really didnt like it? Or did I just get hit by a "drive-by" rater?
If I saw in my comments
"Hey, nice skin but..." RATING: 6
"Best skin ever made!" RATING: 10
"Great Job..." RATING: 7
"My mother could..." RATING: 1
"This is pretty nice" RATING: 6
"Not sure I like..." Rating: 4
Now things make a little sense. My skin is pretty good. 6 maybe 7. A few things become obvious, to everyone. The guy whose mother skins better than me should be banned. My skin is NOT the "best skin ever" although one devoted ingui fan thinks so
One user really didn't care for the skin in whole or in part. I have a 4 and a comment to tell me how to improve that rating in the future. BTW - Do I hunt that user down and stalk him/her on the boards and rate any of their submissions low in retribution? A nasty email? One forward to an admin, Like I said, becomes kinda obvious and I'd be banned with the guy who threw me a one.
Boss019
Reply #72 Sunday, February 6, 2005 8:40 PM
how can anyone rate a skin if they themselves don't know how to create one?
Well, I don't know how to create one yet, but I certainly have downloaded and used pretty much every WB and tons of Visual styles plus rainys and everything else here and other places, and it becomes pretty obvious if i skin is well made, regardless of if I personally like the look of it. Sure, tons of people can't tell, they go for the looks and flash of a skin and that is all they care about...which is fine, but the ratings don't differentiate between looks and great designing, so even if people have to download it to rate it, it's still gonna be in the hands of alot of people who don't know and aren't really interested in the talent it takes to make a real quality skin if they don't like how it looks with their favorite band's wall..or whatever it may be.
But downloading first to make comment and rating should certainly weed out a lot of the garbage due to the extra effort to screw with someone's ratings and will, I think, make the comments that are given more helpful to the skinners as to what people actually think
Reply #72 Sunday, February 6, 2005 8:40 PM
how can anyone rate a skin if they themselves don't know how to create one?
Well, I don't know how to create one yet, but I certainly have downloaded and used pretty much every WB and tons of Visual styles plus rainys and everything else here and other places, and it becomes pretty obvious if i skin is well made, regardless of if I personally like the look of it. Sure, tons of people can't tell, they go for the looks and flash of a skin and that is all they care about...which is fine, but the ratings don't differentiate between looks and great designing, so even if people have to download it to rate it, it's still gonna be in the hands of alot of people who don't know and aren't really interested in the talent it takes to make a real quality skin if they don't like how it looks with their favorite band's wall..or whatever it may be.
But downloading first to make comment and rating should certainly weed out a lot of the garbage due to the extra effort to screw with someone's ratings and will, I think, make the comments that are given more helpful to the skinners as to what people actually think
Jafo
Reply #73 Sunday, February 6, 2005 8:47 PM
Reply #73 Sunday, February 6, 2005 8:47 PM
| how can anyone rate a skin if they themselves don't know how to create one? |
Actually...the issue is 'how can anyone rate a skin if they themselves have never used a skin?'
Makes for a far clearer absurdity, don't you think?....
gooberbean28
Reply #75 Monday, February 7, 2005 2:52 AM
Reply #75 Monday, February 7, 2005 2:52 AM
I rate only the skins I use, gotta try them first to be able to rate them!But just because I'm not technically knowledgable about a skins coding doesnt mean I cant rate a skin ! I know what skins I like and what skins work good for me. Alot of really good and upcoming skinners have been chased away from WC because of this rating system its seems the newer skinners think the long time skinners rate them low,which i can understand the long time skinners have more knowledge about skinning,So all in all I think the rating system stinks if you want to know how good your skin is check out the comments 90% of the time you'll get more info from them than the ratings! 
Erk.
Reply #76 Monday, February 7, 2005 3:45 AM
Not from where I stand, as a non-skinner. I've never found any of the seasoned skinners here, less than very helpful and encouraging to newcomers.
If the new talent thinks that's the case, I'd (personally) refute it and say that they've got it wrong. The seasoned skinners I've met here would not deliberately rate a skin low, and would not have that sort of agenda.
However, ~if a skin does get a low rating ...it should not be construed as slamming the skin ~it's author should take in the ratings and comments, study his/her work ...and find areas where it can be improved upon. After all, good skins are what we come here for...
(2 cents spent)
Reply #76 Monday, February 7, 2005 3:45 AM
| seems the newer skinners think the long time skinners rate them low,which i can understand the long time skinners have more knowledge about skinning |
Not from where I stand, as a non-skinner. I've never found any of the seasoned skinners here, less than very helpful and encouraging to newcomers.
If the new talent thinks that's the case, I'd (personally) refute it and say that they've got it wrong. The seasoned skinners I've met here would not deliberately rate a skin low, and would not have that sort of agenda.
However, ~if a skin does get a low rating ...it should not be construed as slamming the skin ~it's author should take in the ratings and comments, study his/her work ...and find areas where it can be improved upon. After all, good skins are what we come here for...
(2 cents spent)
MadDeez
Reply #77 Monday, February 7, 2005 7:36 AM
Reply #77 Monday, February 7, 2005 7:36 AM
log time skinners rate skins by newcomers low? when did this start? i'm with eric on this one. not once have i asked an experienced skinner a question and been turned away. every question i've had has been answered politely and with clarity. these guys have no reason to push lesser experienced skinners away from WC and skinning in general. some of their comments may be taken wrong by new skinners but i assure you, if the person making the comment had been asked what he or she meant, the misunderstanding would be taken care of. the more experienced skinners here will bend over backwards to help new guys if they are asked.
WOM
Reply #78 Monday, February 7, 2005 7:49 AM
Reply #78 Monday, February 7, 2005 7:49 AM
Comments like ratings can be bogus. If you look at whos commenting you might find that a lot of the people never downloaded the piece and are just commenting on the preview, same as those who rate without downloading. So just because you have a lot of this is great, very nice, and the skin is rated a 5(2 1/2 stars) doesn't mean the rating is wrong. Think about that.
gooberbean28
Reply #79 Monday, February 7, 2005 12:00 PM
Reply #79 Monday, February 7, 2005 12:00 PM
Eric I agree with you, I'm not a skinner either. But some of the newer skinners I have talked to think that if they are not a big name like tiggz ,SF or pixstudios ( which these guys are some of the best)they get rated low and it discourages them .Personally if I was a skinner I would expect to get rated lower than these master skinners because I wouldnt have the experience skinning that they have. I have seen some great work by the new skinners(in my opinion).I think it shouldnt be about ratings it should be about their love for skinning giving us great and awesome blinds and etc for us to enjoy, I agree maybe some of their comments have been taken wrong. I also agree with Jafo in comment #68 some have an agenda to unsurp the status of their competition which is what some new skinners think?
I also agree with Jafo in comment #68 some have an agenda to unsurp the status of their competition which is what some new skinners think?
goodmorphing
Reply #80 Monday, February 7, 2005 12:58 PM
Reply #80 Monday, February 7, 2005 12:58 PM
Just an aside, here. I see people making comments about newcomers vs old timers, and people maybe rating old timers higher because they have been around so long. Perhaps you might see this differently if you knew that Tiggz is a newcomer, only skinning a relatively short time now. Success is nothing to do with being around a long time, it is to do with discipline, and care, and constantly trying to learn. It is to do with setting goals and striving to meet them. It has nothing to do with name or nepotism.
In fact, I suspect I have sometimes seen 'old timers' rated low because they do have a name, perhaps in an attempt to level the field.
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Reply #61 Sunday, February 6, 2005 1:59 PM