Any PORT in a storm.....
Monday, January 17, 2005 by Jafo | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Seems there's a sub-culture of 'skinners' who look down their noses at anything vaguely resembling a 'Port'....as if those who do them are second-class citizens.
Porting is an essential part of skinning. Without ports there would be NO suites, as then there'd be 'just' a WB and no Winamp to match....or a DX theme and no WB, etc. Anyone not understanding the importance of porting clearly is ignorant about both the history and actual 'meaning' of skinning. Do a search for 'Heavy Equipment' in just about any gallery/skin proggy you can think of, and on any skin site you like....then you'll 'know'....
I think this vilification of those who 'port' should stop.
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Essencay
Reply #62 Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:15 PM
Reply #62 Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:15 PM
It's all very simple. There is no need for special rating system for ports vs. original content...just rate the skin according to the quality, completeness, useability, etc....whatever rating system you use, just use it. So if a MSStyles Port doesn't have as Fuzzy noted "...any extra work required (msstyle upgraded to full WB functionality) should be to a high standard and compulsory - no 'five minute' jobs., then rate it accordingly.
If someone is doing a half-ass job of porting Msstyles, it's up to the folks that are granting permission to stop granting it, nothing here we can or need to do to stop it...except offer to help that person build a better port or make the original author aware of how, not so well, the ports of his/her works are being received, if the porter just doesn't get it. Just as a permission is given, I'm pretty sure it can be retracted.
As for who should get credit (downloads and ratings) for a port....the one that created the port. Whatever effort, 1200 lines of code (way too much coding for me
) or one-click whamo. Either way, the person porting has permission to due so, and was given permission to upload the port under his/her own name...again...so long as appropriate permissions are noted and included.
Anyway, everything will sort out in the end, provided enough folks that have the ability to rate and comment do so.
If someone is doing a half-ass job of porting Msstyles, it's up to the folks that are granting permission to stop granting it, nothing here we can or need to do to stop it...except offer to help that person build a better port or make the original author aware of how, not so well, the ports of his/her works are being received, if the porter just doesn't get it. Just as a permission is given, I'm pretty sure it can be retracted.
As for who should get credit (downloads and ratings) for a port....the one that created the port. Whatever effort, 1200 lines of code (way too much coding for me
) or one-click whamo. Either way, the person porting has permission to due so, and was given permission to upload the port under his/her own name...again...so long as appropriate permissions are noted and included.Anyway, everything will sort out in the end, provided enough folks that have the ability to rate and comment do so.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #63 Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:21 PM
Reply #63 Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:21 PM
Very clear perspective Steve. You brought it all back to the basics. 
Corky_O
Reply #64 Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:52 PM
Reply #64 Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:52 PM
Kona,
It would be a shame to see you stop porting.
I quite enjoy your port of "FXP".
I agree Essencay in #62, very practical and fair.
It would be a shame to see you stop porting.
I quite enjoy your port of "FXP".
I agree Essencay in #62, very practical and fair.
HG_Eliminator
Reply #65 Thursday, January 20, 2005 9:30 PM
Reply #65 Thursday, January 20, 2005 9:30 PM
all this "whos better than who" BS is going to ruin WC....skinners VS porters VS screenshots uploaders..yesh.....soon there will be fighting amongst the apps ..Winamp Skinners VS WMP skinners.....all this segregation isnt good for the community....i fully respect each of the viewpoints given ...now ask your self....is this argueing going to help the site or the community ? or is this just for ego?..
i may piss a few off with my viewpoints .. but heck popularity is overrated ......
i may piss a few off with my viewpoints .. but heck popularity is overrated
......
Boss019
Reply #66 Thursday, January 20, 2005 9:34 PM
Reply #66 Thursday, January 20, 2005 9:34 PM
Essencay has the right perspective, and the people who upload the skins, whether "from scratch" WB skins or ports of MS Styles have to answer to themselves..I'm sure many a talented skinner has released a "not up to standards" skin from time to time, and someone porting has done 5 minute jobs, but damn, each one knows where they fall short..Seems to me the ego is the problem..both ways..the talented skinners get their egos bruised when a port is received better than their skin, someone doing a lousy port gets his ego stroked cause people like the look of it regardless of the quality...hell, some do it ONLY for their ego, to get away with what they can to show high downloads and such, by flooding the site to get high numbers. At the end of the day, you know within yourself where you fit in the mix...do what you do to make yourself happy, and if you brighten other peoples lives with your work, all the better
horiz0n
Reply #67 Friday, January 21, 2005 12:09 AM
Reply #67 Friday, January 21, 2005 12:09 AM
*warning this post contains so much text your browser may explode, best suited for monitors with a resolution of 1600x1200* 
"I see some things never change nor will they in the near future. Attitudes represented here are just..."
It wasn't so long ago when you first came here, I remember multiple times the ADMINS no less, found your attidude on here much less than appropriate. Regardless, no one here is flaming you, and I'm not questioning the contributions that porters have and do make or the importance of them.
"whos better than who"
...Not a topic that has really come up in this thread.
"i fully respect each of the viewpoints given ...now ask your self....is this argueing going to help the site or the community"
It could help. It would surely hurt the community far worse for people to not voice opinions. Patting each other on the backs for every action someone takes, whether they deserve it or not, isn't going to accomplish anything.
A community is a group of people that have common interests, nothing more or less, and no rules can be laid out for how that community will interact or thrive. But you can't have a community without communication. “To communicate is the beginning of understanding.”
People shoudln't have to worry whether or not they're allowed or to express their opinions, especially not at something called a "forum." The only thing people should really worry about in their posts is the manner of how they say it.
If you like doing something, you better make damn sure that you are first off, "doing-it-for-yourself", before you even start to worry about anyone else.
Even Mr. T pities the fool that tries to make the whole world happy.
"i may piss a few off with my viewpoints"
Well I guarantee you I do, but I'm going to speak my mind anyway. If someone's is going to take the time to listen, it's only fitting that you actually say something worth being told.
"hell, some do it ONLY for their ego, to get away with what they can to show high downloads and such"
Whatever floats their boat, but I don't think many if any skinner, is going to get their ego's shattered and become jealous from any direct porters or their download count. If they do get jealous you can pretty well rest assured it's the original author they're envious of.
And since when is an "ego" a bad thing, we all have one, your ego is the part of your psyche that is conscious, it's the nature of all your thoughts and behaviorisms. Ego is not short for egocentric, or egotistic, or egoism, or egomaniac, or ego trip. Your ego is like your pride, and if you're not proud of what you do, maybe you've got bad motive.
Furthermore the download count we authors have may not seem of any importance to the typical user or any other person, but to us; those little numbers are pure gold. Any skinner/artist/designer here that says his DL count doesn't matter to him isn't meek and humble, they are lying. Those set of numbers for the authors here are by far the most important and accurate source of info on how successful a given creation is. Arguably as much, or more important are the comments, which provide (hopefully at least) TRUTHFUL opinions from a barrage of various diverse users. And honestly, comments have much more potential to make a person arrogant than numbers.
So lego my ego, and sorry for the deviating rant. You people think what you like, say what you mean, and if you're able to, do what you want, no one can expect anything more than that.
"I see some things never change nor will they in the near future. Attitudes represented here are just..."
It wasn't so long ago when you first came here, I remember multiple times the ADMINS no less, found your attidude on here much less than appropriate. Regardless, no one here is flaming you, and I'm not questioning the contributions that porters have and do make or the importance of them.
"whos better than who"
...Not a topic that has really come up in this thread.
"i fully respect each of the viewpoints given ...now ask your self....is this argueing going to help the site or the community"
It could help. It would surely hurt the community far worse for people to not voice opinions. Patting each other on the backs for every action someone takes, whether they deserve it or not, isn't going to accomplish anything.
A community is a group of people that have common interests, nothing more or less, and no rules can be laid out for how that community will interact or thrive. But you can't have a community without communication. “To communicate is the beginning of understanding.”
People shoudln't have to worry whether or not they're allowed or to express their opinions, especially not at something called a "forum." The only thing people should really worry about in their posts is the manner of how they say it.
If you like doing something, you better make damn sure that you are first off, "doing-it-for-yourself", before you even start to worry about anyone else.
Even Mr. T pities the fool that tries to make the whole world happy.
"i may piss a few off with my viewpoints"
Well I guarantee you I do, but I'm going to speak my mind anyway. If someone's is going to take the time to listen, it's only fitting that you actually say something worth being told.
"hell, some do it ONLY for their ego, to get away with what they can to show high downloads and such"
Whatever floats their boat, but I don't think many if any skinner, is going to get their ego's shattered and become jealous from any direct porters or their download count. If they do get jealous you can pretty well rest assured it's the original author they're envious of.
And since when is an "ego" a bad thing, we all have one, your ego is the part of your psyche that is conscious, it's the nature of all your thoughts and behaviorisms. Ego is not short for egocentric, or egotistic, or egoism, or egomaniac, or ego trip. Your ego is like your pride, and if you're not proud of what you do, maybe you've got bad motive.
Furthermore the download count we authors have may not seem of any importance to the typical user or any other person, but to us; those little numbers are pure gold. Any skinner/artist/designer here that says his DL count doesn't matter to him isn't meek and humble, they are lying. Those set of numbers for the authors here are by far the most important and accurate source of info on how successful a given creation is. Arguably as much, or more important are the comments, which provide (hopefully at least) TRUTHFUL opinions from a barrage of various diverse users. And honestly, comments have much more potential to make a person arrogant than numbers.
So lego my ego, and sorry for the deviating rant. You people think what you like, say what you mean, and if you're able to, do what you want, no one can expect anything more than that.
davad70
Reply #68 Friday, January 21, 2005 12:37 AM
Reply #68 Friday, January 21, 2005 12:37 AM
Personally...I just don't understand the point of uploading ports of .msstyles any more. The importer in SKS has now gotten to the point where it converts to .wba almost flawlessly. If someone sees a .msstyle they like, they can just fire up SKS and have a WB version in about a minute. Given that...what's the point of me converting something in 2 minutes and then uploading it? Almost three years ago, I did one of the first ports from .msstyle to .wba http://davad70.wincustomize.com/viewskin.aspx?skinid=2375&libid=1&comments=1&SID=4286&UID=188 I did it the old fashioned way..image by image. I also did this one about 2 1/2 years ago http://davad70.wincustomize.com/viewskin.aspx?skinid=2391&libid=1&comments=1&SID=4286&UID=188 again...no importing. These skins took me weeks to complete. Since then I've used SKS to import VS's for my own use. Even when the import didn't work very well, it only took an hour or so for me to fix whatever didn't come through right. There's a huge difference between the two processes. There have been many VS to WB ports uploaded here in the last year that were obviously just straight up imports, and the "porter" didn't even take the time to fix the small things that would have only taken an hour or so to fix. I have no problem with people doing ports, there are some great ones out there who have done a lot of flawless ports...Pas, Snidely, Honz, just to name a few. I respect these people because they take the time to make sure the skin is right. In spite of them doing a great job...I just don't think there is much of a point in doing them anymore with the way the importer has progressed. Ports to different apps are a totally different thing to me. Porting to different apps is one of the things that this community was built upon.
HG_Eliminator
Reply #69 Friday, January 21, 2005 12:56 AM
Reply #69 Friday, January 21, 2005 12:56 AM
there is nothing wrong with having "ego"or"pride" in what you do, but i see no need for some to be mean or belittleing to others that they feel are beneath them...many of these people even tho they may not be the "masters" at skinning .. are trying to contribute even if in the slightest way..and i tip my hat to them.....im not saying there aren't some just in it for the #'s.. but when a whole group is sterio typed as "willing to sacrifice integrity for cheap popularity"etc.... that's just not rite..
ive ported... ive built from scratch .why? because its fun. .im proud of both.....ive uploaded a few here to share...if i was out for #'s i would have definately been pumping things out like mad .. but since i port i must be some #"s crazed loon trying to get an up on the rest of yas??? .. it really makes a person feel bad when their trying their best to contribute, to have someone lump them in to a nasty sterio type.....theres peeps in every aspect of skinning willing to sacrifice integrity for cheap popularity . not just porting....
ive ported... ive built from scratch .why? because its fun. .im proud of both.....ive uploaded a few here to share...if i was out for #'s i would have definately been pumping things out like mad .. but since i port i must be some #"s crazed loon trying to get an up on the rest of yas??? .. it really makes a person feel bad when their trying their best to contribute, to have someone lump them in to a nasty sterio type.....theres peeps in every aspect of skinning willing to sacrifice integrity for cheap popularity . not just porting....
Woodbridge
Reply #71 Friday, January 21, 2005 5:51 AM
Reply #71 Friday, January 21, 2005 5:51 AM
2 mins to get a flawless port? I don't think so. I spent weeks working on my port of ThemeNorth's VelvetWaves. I learnt many things about what WB and SKS is capable of and what its not capable of.
What of the people like Kol, he is bring over his mmstyles to the WB format himself, but he is not starting the skins from scratch, he is running them through SKS and adding WB specific elements.
Incidentally, my next port that I'm working on is based off a Linux GTK2 theme - there is no easy SkinStudio option for that, does that mean the skin will some how be superior because there isn't a importer?
What of the people like Kol, he is bring over his mmstyles to the WB format himself, but he is not starting the skins from scratch, he is running them through SKS and adding WB specific elements.
Incidentally, my next port that I'm working on is based off a Linux GTK2 theme - there is no easy SkinStudio option for that, does that mean the skin will some how be superior because there isn't a importer?
Weaksid
Reply #72 Friday, January 21, 2005 6:26 AM
Reply #72 Friday, January 21, 2005 6:26 AM
I agree, people that do ports still have to do alot of work. The only thing that is sortof done is the idea of the design. The person porting still has to make the graphics in that design for the new program then put it together.
davad70
Reply #73 Friday, January 21, 2005 8:16 AM
No, not necessarily superior...but in my own opinion (which we all have a right to, correct?), more respectable.
Did I hurt your feelings because I didn't specifically mention you as one of the good "porters"?
I'm not saying the site should or should not do anything regarding this whole issue. I learned years ago, not to get my panties in a wad over anything here. Just offering my opinion.
Reply #73 Friday, January 21, 2005 8:16 AM
| Incidentally, my next port that I'm working on is based off a Linux GTK2 theme - there is no easy SkinStudio option for that, does that mean the skin will some how be superior because there isn't a importer? |
No, not necessarily superior...but in my own opinion (which we all have a right to, correct?), more respectable.
Did I hurt your feelings because I didn't specifically mention you as one of the good "porters"?
I'm not saying the site should or should not do anything regarding this whole issue. I learned years ago, not to get my panties in a wad over anything here. Just offering my opinion.
Csurfside
Reply #75 Friday, January 21, 2005 9:14 AM
I would fall in that category HG. Thank you for the support. I simply love this site. I wish I could do more. (I Have purchased several things to contribute to the site, which in return benefits everyone including the 'Master Skinners') No im no master skinner, probally never will be. But I appreciate all the work that others do and admire, even look up to some of you guys like Jafo and yourself HG. Just keep up the great work.
Reply #75 Friday, January 21, 2005 9:14 AM
| I see no need for some to be mean or belittleing to others that they feel are beneath them...many of these people even tho they may not be the "masters" at skinning .. are trying to contribute even if in the slightest way..and i tip my hat to them... |
I would fall in that category HG. Thank you for the support. I simply love this site. I wish I could do more. (I Have purchased several things to contribute to the site, which in return benefits everyone including the 'Master Skinners') No im no master skinner, probally never will be. But I appreciate all the work that others do and admire, even look up to some of you guys like Jafo and yourself HG. Just keep up the great work.
Csurfside/Doodle Hunter
Reply #76 Saturday, January 22, 2005 9:49 PM
Reply #76 Saturday, January 22, 2005 9:49 PM
lol...I always feel like the one who jumps in a conversation after it's half over... 
Hus
Reply #77 Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:27 AM
Reply #77 Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:27 AM
Here's my view on specifically the .msstyle to .wba ports...
If you simply load a .msstyle, import it with SKS, then save it as a .wba and upload it without doing a single thing to it, then you are not a skinner, nor are you a porter...you're just a button-clicker. That takes zero skill, and should not be recognized as such.
However, if you take the same .msstyle, import it with SKS, then you add and upgrade all the WB features that .msstyle lacks, then you are most certainly a skinner, a porter, and you deserve almost as much respect as someone who does an original skin. I say 'almost', because originality will always be that 1-step ahead of porting...but a good port is not that far behind.
Sorry if my views offend...
If you simply load a .msstyle, import it with SKS, then save it as a .wba and upload it without doing a single thing to it, then you are not a skinner, nor are you a porter...you're just a button-clicker. That takes zero skill, and should not be recognized as such.
However, if you take the same .msstyle, import it with SKS, then you add and upgrade all the WB features that .msstyle lacks, then you are most certainly a skinner, a porter, and you deserve almost as much respect as someone who does an original skin. I say 'almost', because originality will always be that 1-step ahead of porting...but a good port is not that far behind.
Sorry if my views offend...
Adam Najmanowicz
Reply #78 Monday, January 31, 2005 8:58 PM
Reply #78 Monday, January 31, 2005 8:58 PM
Hus and Woodbridge made an excellent point.
I did a number of ports, some manually, some with help of SkinStudio, heck I've made the porter and converted thousands of msstyles in the process and I can tell you there is no such thing as a perfect one click port and there never will be. Yes, the port is currently accurate and it transforms all msstyles details to a WB skin but... All the ports I've made so far and those I'm about to upload soon took days or (like the one coming next) weeks of work. Except for using the original author's graphics, I feel no less attached to them then any of the do-it-the-hard-way porters or even skinners. I may not have created the original graphics so I am not an artist, but say... a craftsman.
A lot of msstyles would not be available for the WB users simply because they would never know about them! Bringing them here means a lot to the site and to the community! A lot of them are even hard to find as they are released on some obscure forums or in places no WB user would really look. Should the porter not went out of his way to contact the original author for the permission, then went through many iterations of sending screenshots to and fro, while adding multiple little bits, fixing all the issues and adding missing WindowBlinds features. Often the best msstyles out there does not even have shellstyles to them.
Been there, done that. And I can tell you I think twice if not more times before I start working on a port. I will spend a week or a month (if the skin has many sub-styles) adding WB bits to it.
Does the skin appeal to me to spend numerous evenings working with it? Will such port benefit our community? Isn't there a similar skin out there yet? Can I make it better on the WindowBlinds side than it is on the msstyles side?
I’m tired of this elitist approach. I've seen a lot of dragging down of the porters like Snidely who did some of the best ports ever and I can tell you this is not appreciated either by the person who made the effort, nor by the people like me who enjoy their work. Porters doing it the proper way like Snidely or Woodbridge deserve no less appreciation than regular skinners for their contribution to the community.
I did a number of ports, some manually, some with help of SkinStudio, heck I've made the porter and converted thousands of msstyles in the process and I can tell you there is no such thing as a perfect one click port and there never will be. Yes, the port is currently accurate and it transforms all msstyles details to a WB skin but... All the ports I've made so far and those I'm about to upload soon took days or (like the one coming next) weeks of work. Except for using the original author's graphics, I feel no less attached to them then any of the do-it-the-hard-way porters or even skinners. I may not have created the original graphics so I am not an artist, but say... a craftsman.
A lot of msstyles would not be available for the WB users simply because they would never know about them! Bringing them here means a lot to the site and to the community! A lot of them are even hard to find as they are released on some obscure forums or in places no WB user would really look. Should the porter not went out of his way to contact the original author for the permission, then went through many iterations of sending screenshots to and fro, while adding multiple little bits, fixing all the issues and adding missing WindowBlinds features. Often the best msstyles out there does not even have shellstyles to them.
Been there, done that. And I can tell you I think twice if not more times before I start working on a port. I will spend a week or a month (if the skin has many sub-styles) adding WB bits to it.
Does the skin appeal to me to spend numerous evenings working with it? Will such port benefit our community? Isn't there a similar skin out there yet? Can I make it better on the WindowBlinds side than it is on the msstyles side?
I’m tired of this elitist approach. I've seen a lot of dragging down of the porters like Snidely who did some of the best ports ever and I can tell you this is not appreciated either by the person who made the effort, nor by the people like me who enjoy their work. Porters doing it the proper way like Snidely or Woodbridge deserve no less appreciation than regular skinners for their contribution to the community.
kona0197
Reply #80 Monday, January 31, 2005 10:30 PM
Thank you Adam for saying what I have been trying to say for the longest time.
Reply #80 Monday, January 31, 2005 10:30 PM
| I’m tired of this elitist approach. I've seen a lot of dragging down of the porters like Snidely who did some of the best ports ever and I can tell you this is not appreciated either by the person who made the effort, nor by the people like me who enjoy their work. Porters doing it the proper way like Snidely or Woodbridge deserve no less appreciation than regular skinners for their contribution to the community. |
Thank you Adam for saying what I have been trying to say for the longest time.
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Reply #61 Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:12 PM