Only MY intellectual property counts..
A view from the glass house
Wednesday, December 29, 2004 by Frogboy | Discussion: Skinning
I've been observating (and participating) in some interesting..ahem..discussions with regards to Adam's article on using SkinStudio to import .msstyles files as WindowBlinds skins.
Some intersting "outrage" at the thought that some user, in the privacy of their own home, might run a skin that was originally in .msstyles format in WindowBlinds. That this was, somehow, a violation of the rights of the skinner.
Let's be clear: No one is suggesting that someone should be able to import in a .msstyles skin and then start being able to upload it around. You still need permission. The rights of the skin author should still be respected.
But we also have to have some perspective as well. .msstyles is MICROSOFT'S FORMAT. It's a format that NO ONE has legally licensed to make use of. And it gets worse - every single .msstyles on the net is a derivative of the Luna.msstyles. People either reshack luna.msstyles (or an existing derivative of it) to change the bitmaps and data in it or they use a $20 editor that is available that reshacks luna.msstyles with a prettier interface.
The reason WinCustomize currently does not have a .msstyles section is because of that issue: Can we condone the distribution of what is borderline pirated files? It's the same reason why we don't include Boot screens that are patched files of the NT kernal (we only support .bootskin and had to write a freeware program just so that we could have boot screens here). You can't just patch someone else's copyrighted stuff and pass it around. Believe me, I would love to have a .msstyles section here from a purely capitalistic point of view and if someone can rationalize it for me to have a section for them, go for it - I'm ready to believe. But like I said, we're talking pretty gray market stuff.
But let's get back - so then the people who object to the idea that WindowBlinds would somehow profit from the ability to make use of .msstyles. This is apparently somehow different than the commercial programs that have existed for the past 3 years that make use of .msstyles by patching uxtheme.dll.
And anyone who claims that hacking your system files to use .msstyles should explain to others why the main sites that promote patching uxtheme.dll do not have forums. Even the main NON-FREE developer of a uxtheme patching program removed their forums. The most popular .msstyles distribution site has no forums. Could it possibly be that it's because of the technical disasters it causes? I don't know. What I do know is how much tech support WE get from people who messed around with their files and blew away their default visual style or had problems when they applied a service pack or something else. In my opinion, anyone trying to claim that patching your system files (either in RAM or on disk) is "safe" is not telling the whole story.
Puttin that aside - there are already programs making a profit from .msstyles and have been for years. Where's the outrage? But because the handful of original msstyles floating around the net might be able to be added to the 3000+ existing WindowBlinds skins Stardock is the greedy one? Please.
Regardless of the format, the rights of skin authors need to be respected. They are artists. As the #6 most downloaded skin author on this site, I know something of the work that goes into skinning. But I also know where my rights end. When someone downloads my skin onto their own computer, my rights end. What they do with it on their own computer is their business. People have been downloading and modifying skins for their own use since day 1. And of all formats, .msstyles authors happen to be using a format that requires them to be using someone else's stuff without their permission in the first place.
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Reply #42 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 2:17 PM
Reply #43 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 2:39 PM
Reply #44 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 2:47 PM
Reply #45 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 3:24 PM
ABSOLUTELY!
I view The Skins Factory as pro as pro can get, and his views on IP rights are probably very accurate.
If a msstyles author mentions in a EULA that his work may not be altered in any way, woe to the first wb user who unwarily posts a ss of such a vs. And you can bet I'll keep a list.
And since we seem to be not allowed to say anything negative Stardock or Wincustomize without you flipping out Frogboy, how about you ease up on the negative rhetoric towards customize.org a little bit? It's a two way street. You seem to be allowed to call us names and say the site is dead and a mess.
Reply #46 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 3:37 PM
wholy cow talk about dense...
Reply #47 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:27 PM
Reply #48 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:48 PM
Reply #49 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 5:30 PM
Example: Microsoft put out the Winamp to WMP skin converter. I thought that was in bad taste. It was disrespectful to the winamp artists.
I don't think any screenshots of unauthorized porting should be allowed. Period. Because that takes it from the privacy of their home and displays it for the world to see. It ceases being private at the point.
Reply #50 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 5:38 PM
Reply #51 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 6:02 PM
Reply #52 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 6:09 PM
I guess it isn't technically right, but would I be wrong to think that everybody converts somebody else's IP into another format, such as a BMP image into a JPG? I'm sure everybody's even altered an image's size. Does that mean that Photoshop and other image editors should remove the ability to easily convert files to other formats and to easily edit them?
I just don't see how the converter will harm creators of .msstyles in ways they couldn't be before (there are editors for .msstyles that allow people to edit .msstyles too).
Reply #53 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 6:27 PM
Reply #54 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 6:30 PM
| As the original artists we do and should have a right to control how our graphics are shown in public. Something i don't see happening here. When i asked for that shot to be taken down i was told no. Now i put you may not alter or distribute our artwork in any form. It's clearly stated like on the nVidia skin. |
| Showing screenshots with the artwork kept intact is one thing and yes would fall under Fair Use. Altering artwork and then displaying is not Fair Use. |
wait.. does this mean we should take down any screenshot of your work? I don't understand.
What is you recolor the skin (like WindowBlinds can do as well as Icon Studio). If you show the skin in a different color then what?
As far as Windowblinds importing msstyles into a windowblind format, I think its not a problem. I do find it strange and a little particular. I probably would not have authorized SkinStudio (if I was in charge of the project) to be able to import msstyles. While not illegal, it does seem funny. Particularly since msstyles could be considered hacking.
I think the funny thing about all of this is that people can port over styles anyway fort there own use on their computer. If they show it in a screenshot... it technically should be shown since it is a screenshot of their desktop at its current or previous state(as long as your not showing everything about the new ported skin). Plus, with many complex skins, the WHOLE skin (mouse-overs, animations, alpha-transparencies, and so on) can not be shown anyway. Not to mention the fact that a screenshot is one image compared to the multiple images of the skinned program. PLUS the skinned program is in use (as in the screenshot image can not be accessed as a program; it does not receive user commands)
Conclusion:
SkinStudio 'probably' should not be able to import msstyle skins because msstyle skins operate in the murcky waters of using a hack to operate. Plus, with TGSoft on the scene (and any other company profiting off of the hack), you find yourself associated to them. I don't think SkinStudio or Windowblinds should have any association to msstyles except for the fact that both change elements of WinXP GUI. Other than that, one is authorized and the other isn't and voids the end user agreement with Microsoft. SkinStudio importing those files almost supports the users (probable unknown to them) destruction of their own end user license agreement with Microsoft.
(Windows Media Player being able to import WinAMP skins did seem tacky, but when a plug-in for WinAMP showed for importing WMP skins into WinAMP, I guess that makes it even)
screenshots... I don't know TSF. I too, am interested in what your lawyer said about this issue of screenshots and a user showing a re-furbished commercial (or otherwise made) skin. That would make a good article and discussion.
Reply #55 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 6:45 PM
Oh and Joe if you want to pay her 325/hour fee to ask her i'll be happy to forward you her information. I'm just not that motivated if you know what i mean.
And out of respect to the artist that put their hard work into those icons you mentioned. Don't you think they deserve to be asked if you can show their work altered? Even in a screenshot. Since you downloaded a certain way. Ugh i'm getting drawn into this. This is my last comment.
Reply #56 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 6:55 PM
| SkinStudio importing those files almost supports the users (probable unknown to them) destruction of their own end user license agreement with Microsoft. |
It's the hacking of the uxtheme.dll that violates the EULA. You could say that converting msstyles to WindowBlinds saves people from violating the EULA.
Reply #57 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 7:39 PM
You can specify that your donation should go to the Asian relief fund. That's where i made my donation on behalf of TSF.
Reply #58 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 8:04 PM
It's amazing that this conversation has taken place across three different forums and the same result has happened. So many immature skinners whinning that their skins may be turned into WB formats. Well god forbid that happens and the world grows and up and realizes there is something better out there.
The uxtheme skinning engine is a moped that needs to be replaced by WB, a brand spanking new Harley Davidson.
Reply #59 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:24 PM
But skinners to choose to use msstyles to skin are already violating someone else's intellectual property rights...microsoft's. There are a ton of people using programs like Style XP. No doubt the people making that program have made a lot of money off the backs of msstyles authors.
I think it's hipocritical beyond belief for somebody to complain about WindowBlinds users being able to use skins. Skin authors have rights to their images, they have zero, nada rights over the msstyles format.
It's Microsoft's FORMAT. Not the skin authors. The people who make the format can decide how it's used. Since they've let companies like TGT and others profit from that format, why shouldn't Stardock? If some skinners don't like it, then they should choose a protected format. Picking on Stardock is pretty juvenille.
Reply #60 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:31 PM
| If Microsoft had made .msstyles an open format for people to use and made it freely available for other people to make skins with then I think there would be a valid point to be discussed. But skinners to choose to use msstyles to skin are already violating someone else's intellectual property rights...microsoft's. There are a ton of people using programs like Style XP. No doubt the people making that program have made a lot of money off the backs of msstyles authors. I think it's hipocritical beyond belief for somebody to complain about WindowBlinds users being able to use skins. Skin authors have rights to their images, they have zero, nada rights over the msstyles format. It's Microsoft's FORMAT. Not the skin authors. The people who make the format can decide how it's used. Since they've let companies like TGT and others profit from that format, why shouldn't Stardock? If some skinners don't like it, then they should choose a protected format. Picking on Stardock is pretty juvenille. |
Exactly....wish someone had said that about 3 years ago
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Reply #41 Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:56 PM
No one has any right to alter our artwork in any way without our permission, screenshot or not. Our work is released as a whole entity. Not a kit for people to pick apart and then display in some screenshot section. People i see here tend to abuse the whole Fair Usage right. The artist or studio has full control over who can or can't alter their artwork. I've all ready discussed this with our IP attorneys. So please don't tell me about Fair Use rights.