The Fox Is in Microsoft's Henhouse (and Salivating)
Sunday, December 19, 2004 by Black Xero | Discussion: WinCustomize News
FIREFOX is a classic overnight success, many years in the making.
Published by the Mozilla Foundation, a nonprofit group supporting open-source software that draws upon the skills of hundreds of volunteer programmers, Firefox is a Web browser that is fast and filled with features that Microsoft's stodgy Internet Explorer lacks. Firefox installs in a snap, and it's free.
Firefox 1.0 was released on Nov. 9. Just over a month later, the foundation celebrated a remarkable milestone: 10 million downloads. Donations from Firefox's appreciative fans paid for a two-page advertisement in The New York Times on Thursday.
Until now, the Linux operating system was the best-known success among the hundreds of open-source projects that challenge Microsoft with technically strong, free software that improves as the population of bug-reporting and bug-fixing users grows. But unless you oversee purchases for a corporate data center, it's unlikely that you've felt the need to try Linux yourself.
With Firefox, open-source software moves from back-office obscurity to your home, and to your parents', too. (Your children in college are already using it.) It is polished, as easy to use as Internet Explorer and, most compelling, much better defended against viruses, worms and snoops.
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For the first time, Internet Explorer has been losing market share. According to a worldwide survey conducted in late November by OneStat.com, a company in Amsterdam that analyzes the Web, Internet Explorer's share dropped to less than 89 percent, 5 percentage points less than in May. Firefox now has almost 5 percent of the market, and it is growing.
Read detailed article from New York Times at Link
Published by the Mozilla Foundation, a nonprofit group supporting open-source software that draws upon the skills of hundreds of volunteer programmers, Firefox is a Web browser that is fast and filled with features that Microsoft's stodgy Internet Explorer lacks. Firefox installs in a snap, and it's free.
Firefox 1.0 was released on Nov. 9. Just over a month later, the foundation celebrated a remarkable milestone: 10 million downloads. Donations from Firefox's appreciative fans paid for a two-page advertisement in The New York Times on Thursday.
Until now, the Linux operating system was the best-known success among the hundreds of open-source projects that challenge Microsoft with technically strong, free software that improves as the population of bug-reporting and bug-fixing users grows. But unless you oversee purchases for a corporate data center, it's unlikely that you've felt the need to try Linux yourself.
With Firefox, open-source software moves from back-office obscurity to your home, and to your parents', too. (Your children in college are already using it.) It is polished, as easy to use as Internet Explorer and, most compelling, much better defended against viruses, worms and snoops.
****************************************************************
For the first time, Internet Explorer has been losing market share. According to a worldwide survey conducted in late November by OneStat.com, a company in Amsterdam that analyzes the Web, Internet Explorer's share dropped to less than 89 percent, 5 percentage points less than in May. Firefox now has almost 5 percent of the market, and it is growing.
Read detailed article from New York Times at Link
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tjesterb
Reply #43 Monday, December 20, 2004 10:15 PM
Reply #43 Monday, December 20, 2004 10:15 PM
IE has some features that may be better than Firefox ( it loads faster due to parts of it always running as part of the Windows OS), it is a little more forgiving of bad code (MS Frontpage sites mostly). But Firefox has, IMO, more features for the end user. Just as we have WB skins and Icon packages done by artists here at WC, you have indivduals writing some great extensions that allow you to personalize your browser to perfectly suit how you want it to work. I think MS has grown slack since they ran the old Netscape out of the picture. It seems obvious that any effort they (MS) has put into improving their product has only been because a new competitor has risen up. But, hey, that's a good thing. If we get better browsers out of it, we all win.
FF has one edge in that it will run on all three major platforms. MS has dropped support for IE for Mac, and I doubt we see them writing a Linux version any time soon.
My experience has been that FF is about a thousand times more secure against malware than IE. I can't for the life of me, get my dad to use anything but IE. Last time I ran Adaware on his PC, it found over 400 pieces of spyware. And trust me, my dad isn't surfing porn or warez. He pays his bills, reads the news, and that's about it. There are plenty of otherwise respectable online companies who now bundle spyware into their downloads. Just read Brad's article on "The Stardock Way" over on JU.
Peter Torr (of Microsoft) makes the point that Moz/FF and most extensions are unsigned http://blogs.msdn.com/ptorr/archive/2004/12/20/327511.aspx and the subsequent discussion at Slashdot, http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/21/0038235&tid=172&tid=154&tid=109&tid=113&tid=1
Firefox isn't perfect, but it suits me a lot better than IE ever did, and it looks as though a few thousand others feel the same way.
BTW, Opera is also based on the gecko engine. Go to Shields-Up in Opera and it'll show as a netscape/gecko build.
FF has one edge in that it will run on all three major platforms. MS has dropped support for IE for Mac, and I doubt we see them writing a Linux version any time soon.
My experience has been that FF is about a thousand times more secure against malware than IE. I can't for the life of me, get my dad to use anything but IE. Last time I ran Adaware on his PC, it found over 400 pieces of spyware. And trust me, my dad isn't surfing porn or warez. He pays his bills, reads the news, and that's about it. There are plenty of otherwise respectable online companies who now bundle spyware into their downloads. Just read Brad's article on "The Stardock Way" over on JU.
Peter Torr (of Microsoft) makes the point that Moz/FF and most extensions are unsigned http://blogs.msdn.com/ptorr/archive/2004/12/20/327511.aspx and the subsequent discussion at Slashdot, http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/21/0038235&tid=172&tid=154&tid=109&tid=113&tid=1
Firefox isn't perfect, but it suits me a lot better than IE ever did, and it looks as though a few thousand others feel the same way.
BTW, Opera is also based on the gecko engine. Go to Shields-Up in Opera and it'll show as a netscape/gecko build.
Brandon Paddock
Reply #44 Monday, December 20, 2004 10:24 PM
Reply #44 Monday, December 20, 2004 10:24 PM
MS dropped IE support on the Mac because Apple made an IE-clone called Safari
Safari is based on Konqueror/KHTML, the IE clone for *nix.
Safari is based on Konqueror/KHTML, the IE clone for *nix.
Kobrano
Reply #46 Monday, December 20, 2004 11:07 PM
Reply #46 Monday, December 20, 2004 11:07 PM
Speaking of extensions, they finally have a Firefox Alexa and Google ranking extension and it completely rocks.. Now you can get Google Toolbar, and Alexa Toolbar in one nice little package, and the meter graphics are great at the bottom of your browser.
Link
Check it out.. That was my last and final complaint about Firefox, and its been addressed.
Link
Check it out.. That was my last and final complaint about Firefox, and its been addressed.
RA5C
Reply #47 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 12:42 AM
Reply #47 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 12:42 AM
Way back, when Netscape and Microsoft released their first 32bit browsers, I downloaded and tried both. Netscape wouldn't run on my equipment. And since then, no matter what version of Netscape I have tried to install on the eqiiupment I was running at the time, it wouldn't work. Internet Explorer has never failed to function completely for me. Every version has run on the equipment I put it on.
I tried firefox but it doesn't fit my needs. There are no more security leaks in IE than any other browser. The others just haven't been exploited yet. Linux is beginning to see more attacks, as will all other open source products as they become more popular with the public.
I tried firefox but it doesn't fit my needs. There are no more security leaks in IE than any other browser. The others just haven't been exploited yet. Linux is beginning to see more attacks, as will all other open source products as they become more popular with the public.
RPGFX
Reply #48 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 12:44 AM
Reply #48 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 12:44 AM
I just installed Firefox and tried it out... and my web pages were bouncing around like kangaroos... I don't have time to figure out why I have graphical screw ups 5 seconds after I open it for the first time. Back to good ol reliable IE.
gfidias
Reply #49 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 4:10 AM
You probably have chosen to view the bookmarks toolbar with no bookmarks showing on it.
Try putting some bookmarks that you often use on it and the 'bouncing' should stop.
Reply #49 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 4:10 AM
| my web pages were bouncing around like kangaroos |
You probably have chosen to view the bookmarks toolbar with no bookmarks showing on it.
Try putting some bookmarks that you often use on it and the 'bouncing' should stop.
DBachen
Reply #50 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 9:29 AM
This is because IE is preloaded as part of the OS. You can recreate this behavior and make FF load faster, by setting it to preload as well.
Change the properties of your shortcut which lauches FF to the following (changing the app path if applicable: "C:\Program Files\Mozilla Firefox\firefox.exe" /Prefetch:1
The addition of the prefetch will cause the application to get cached, and consequently will load faster in the future.
-D
Reply #50 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 9:29 AM
| IE has some features that may be better than Firefox ( it loads faster due to parts of it always running as part of the Windows OS), |
This is because IE is preloaded as part of the OS. You can recreate this behavior and make FF load faster, by setting it to preload as well.
Change the properties of your shortcut which lauches FF to the following (changing the app path if applicable: "C:\Program Files\Mozilla Firefox\firefox.exe" /Prefetch:1
The addition of the prefetch will cause the application to get cached, and consequently will load faster in the future.
-D
DBachen
Reply #51 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 9:35 AM
Why do you need a spell checker in a browser? I don't think we're discussing the same application here. FWIW, there's not a spell checker in IE either. You don't need it. You need spell checkers in applications for composition such as your mail program. You don't need it for a browser which is rendering for display.
-D
Reply #51 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 9:35 AM
| Mouse over Iben for my reply |
Why do you need a spell checker in a browser? I don't think we're discussing the same application here. FWIW, there's not a spell checker in IE either. You don't need it. You need spell checkers in applications for composition such as your mail program. You don't need it for a browser which is rendering for display.
-D
joeKnowledge
Reply #52 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:11 AM
That's it folks... at least for me.
All the other stuff might be debatable to a degree, but IE's intergration with the OS is not debatable. You get through IE, you get the computer (not all the time, but there is more of a chance).
Reply #52 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:11 AM
| The problem is that once you find a way to exploit these technologies in IE, you can get complete access to an IE user's computer, and do some real damage. If IE was tied in the system so much, it wouldn't be a problem. |
That's it folks... at least for me.
All the other stuff might be debatable to a degree, but IE's intergration with the OS is not debatable. You get through IE, you get the computer (not all the time, but there is more of a chance).
joeKnowledge
Reply #53 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:14 AM
Reply #53 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:14 AM
oh and I need spell checker because I am always on message board forums and blog posting.
LOL
anyway... I'm sure FireFox will get it share of exploits once it becomes more popular, I just do not think it will be as bad as IE
LOL
anyway... I'm sure FireFox will get it share of exploits once it becomes more popular, I just do not think it will be as bad as IE
RPGFX
Reply #54 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 5:51 PM
Reply #54 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 5:51 PM
no gfidias, that's not the case. I have bookmarks there....
Kobrano
Reply #55 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 9:04 PM
and with that kind of patience with "User Error" you probably should just go back to burying your head in the sand.
Reply #55 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 9:04 PM
| I just installed Firefox and tried it out... and my web pages were bouncing around like kangaroos... I don't have time to figure out why I have graphical screw ups 5 seconds after I open it for the first time. Back to good ol reliable IE. |
and with that kind of patience with "User Error" you probably should just go back to burying your head in the sand.
paxx
Reply #57 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:37 PM
Reply #57 Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:37 PM
Actually, it's not. If you do your code right, it shouldn't be a problem.
Test your code with Firefox first, and then check if it works with IE, instead of the other way around. IE forgives bad coding, while Firefox is a little less forgiving. Furthermore, Firefox supports alpha blended PNG's, which IE doesn't, and that's one huge cool feature. I wish everybody would use Firefox, or that Microsoft finally start emplementing it in IE. At last we can start putting buttons on textured or multicolor backgrounds without using crappy GIF transparency.
Test your code with Firefox first, and then check if it works with IE, instead of the other way around. IE forgives bad coding, while Firefox is a little less forgiving. Furthermore, Firefox supports alpha blended PNG's, which IE doesn't, and that's one huge cool feature. I wish everybody would use Firefox, or that Microsoft finally start emplementing it in IE. At last we can start putting buttons on textured or multicolor backgrounds without using crappy GIF transparency.
Brandon Paddock
Reply #58 Wednesday, December 22, 2004 4:06 AM
What are you talking about?
If you can get code to execute in Firefox, it has the same access to the system as anything that gets executed through IE. And that is user-level access. So if you, the user, are running as a member of the Administrators group, then so are your programs. That includes IE and Firefox.
Most people don't understand how the "IE integration" works. Basically, the Windows shell uses Internet Explorer's interface components... to give you a consistent experience everywhere. Countless third-party applications use parts of IE as well.
But IE doesn't run as a system service, it has no special access to the system. It's entirely an user space application.
If you want to be secure, don't run as an Administrator. Unfortunately, too much software is written based on the assumption that you will. And that's something we need to change in the Windows world.
Microsoft also needs to make it easier to elevate privileges when needed. Right now you can right-click on a program in XP and see the "Run as..." option. But there are many times when an installer or update program will just give you an error instead of asking for administrator credentials.
That's something that OS X and *nix variants are better at. Hopefully, Microsoft will change that in Longhorn (or sooner).font>
Reply #58 Wednesday, December 22, 2004 4:06 AM
All the other stuff might be debatable to a degree, but IE's intergration with the OS is not debatable. You get through IE, you get the computer (not all the time, but there is more of a chance). |
What are you talking about?
If you can get code to execute in Firefox, it has the same access to the system as anything that gets executed through IE. And that is user-level access. So if you, the user, are running as a member of the Administrators group, then so are your programs. That includes IE and Firefox.
Most people don't understand how the "IE integration" works. Basically, the Windows shell uses Internet Explorer's interface components... to give you a consistent experience everywhere. Countless third-party applications use parts of IE as well.
But IE doesn't run as a system service, it has no special access to the system. It's entirely an user space application.
If you want to be secure, don't run as an Administrator. Unfortunately, too much software is written based on the assumption that you will. And that's something we need to change in the Windows world.
Microsoft also needs to make it easier to elevate privileges when needed. Right now you can right-click on a program in XP and see the "Run as..." option. But there are many times when an installer or update program will just give you an error instead of asking for administrator credentials.
That's something that OS X and *nix variants are better at. Hopefully, Microsoft will change that in Longhorn (or sooner).font>
Brandon Paddock
Reply #59 Wednesday, December 22, 2004 4:14 AM
What do you mean, "do your code right?"
Do you mean by following the W3C standards that FireFox implements?
"Correct" code is code that works for most users. Not what the W3C and Mozilla Foundation decides is correct.
Browsers like Konqueror and Safari do a good job of properly rendering most anything that IE will render.
Mozilla (and thus Firefox) is far too arrogant in that regard. If a web page looks right in IE, but doesn't look right in Firefox... and you ask the user what's wrong... they won't blame the web site. They'll blame Firefox.
Reply #59 Wednesday, December 22, 2004 4:14 AM
| Actually, it's not. If you do your code right, it shouldn't be a problem. Test your code with Firefox first, and then check if it works with IE, instead of the other way around. IE forgives bad coding, while Firefox is a little less forgiving. Furthermore, Firefox supports alpha blended PNG's, which IE doesn't, and that's one huge cool feature. I wish everybody would use Firefox, or that Microsoft finally start emplementing it in IE. At last we can start putting buttons on textured or multicolor backgrounds without using crappy GIF transparency. |
What do you mean, "do your code right?"
Do you mean by following the W3C standards that FireFox implements?
"Correct" code is code that works for most users. Not what the W3C and Mozilla Foundation decides is correct.
Browsers like Konqueror and Safari do a good job of properly rendering most anything that IE will render.
Mozilla (and thus Firefox) is far too arrogant in that regard. If a web page looks right in IE, but doesn't look right in Firefox... and you ask the user what's wrong... they won't blame the web site. They'll blame Firefox.
Brandon Paddock
Reply #60 Wednesday, December 22, 2004 7:30 AM
Reply #60 Wednesday, December 22, 2004 7:30 AM
If you're truly concerned about strict CSS implementations... why don't you run IE in strict mode?
Oh... because then half of the web pages you visit wouldn't display properly. Kind of like using Firefox.
And whose fault is it that IE is so forgiving? You do know that it was made that way because that's how Netscape did it, back when Netscape ruled the web?
Oh... because then half of the web pages you visit wouldn't display properly. Kind of like using Firefox.
And whose fault is it that IE is so forgiving? You do know that it was made that way because that's how Netscape did it, back when Netscape ruled the web?
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Reply #41 Monday, December 20, 2004 8:54 PM
If you're running as an administrator, any program (including FireFox) that is exploited can wreak havoc on your system.
It's like running with root privileges on a *nix box. You just shouldn't do it.