The Fox Is in Microsoft's Henhouse (and Salivating)
Sunday, December 19, 2004 by Black Xero | Discussion: WinCustomize News
FIREFOX is a classic overnight success, many years in the making.
Published by the Mozilla Foundation, a nonprofit group supporting open-source software that draws upon the skills of hundreds of volunteer programmers, Firefox is a Web browser that is fast and filled with features that Microsoft's stodgy Internet Explorer lacks. Firefox installs in a snap, and it's free.
Firefox 1.0 was released on Nov. 9. Just over a month later, the foundation celebrated a remarkable milestone: 10 million downloads. Donations from Firefox's appreciative fans paid for a two-page advertisement in The New York Times on Thursday.
Until now, the Linux operating system was the best-known success among the hundreds of open-source projects that challenge Microsoft with technically strong, free software that improves as the population of bug-reporting and bug-fixing users grows. But unless you oversee purchases for a corporate data center, it's unlikely that you've felt the need to try Linux yourself.
With Firefox, open-source software moves from back-office obscurity to your home, and to your parents', too. (Your children in college are already using it.) It is polished, as easy to use as Internet Explorer and, most compelling, much better defended against viruses, worms and snoops.
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For the first time, Internet Explorer has been losing market share. According to a worldwide survey conducted in late November by OneStat.com, a company in Amsterdam that analyzes the Web, Internet Explorer's share dropped to less than 89 percent, 5 percentage points less than in May. Firefox now has almost 5 percent of the market, and it is growing.
Read detailed article from New York Times at Link
Published by the Mozilla Foundation, a nonprofit group supporting open-source software that draws upon the skills of hundreds of volunteer programmers, Firefox is a Web browser that is fast and filled with features that Microsoft's stodgy Internet Explorer lacks. Firefox installs in a snap, and it's free.
Firefox 1.0 was released on Nov. 9. Just over a month later, the foundation celebrated a remarkable milestone: 10 million downloads. Donations from Firefox's appreciative fans paid for a two-page advertisement in The New York Times on Thursday.
Until now, the Linux operating system was the best-known success among the hundreds of open-source projects that challenge Microsoft with technically strong, free software that improves as the population of bug-reporting and bug-fixing users grows. But unless you oversee purchases for a corporate data center, it's unlikely that you've felt the need to try Linux yourself.
With Firefox, open-source software moves from back-office obscurity to your home, and to your parents', too. (Your children in college are already using it.) It is polished, as easy to use as Internet Explorer and, most compelling, much better defended against viruses, worms and snoops.
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For the first time, Internet Explorer has been losing market share. According to a worldwide survey conducted in late November by OneStat.com, a company in Amsterdam that analyzes the Web, Internet Explorer's share dropped to less than 89 percent, 5 percentage points less than in May. Firefox now has almost 5 percent of the market, and it is growing.
Read detailed article from New York Times at Link
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MDAW2254
Reply #23 Monday, December 20, 2004 1:11 PM
Reply #23 Monday, December 20, 2004 1:11 PM
Firefox is the best. What I like the most about it is the built-in download manager, and accelerator on it, because you wouldn't belive how many downloads I have on my PC. But, really, I hade NO clue that IE's share dropped less then 89%!!! I also like the theme manager, too. The WebBlinds for IE really does kind of stink. Firefox has everything (maybe more then) I need. Thanks for the info, Sir Black Xero. 
jeoson
Reply #24 Monday, December 20, 2004 1:13 PM
Reply #24 Monday, December 20, 2004 1:13 PM
I've heard a lot of good things about Firefox then I try it and I've been using it since 0.9.3 ,it has lot of useful features like tabbed browsing and you can add search engines from google to dictionary.com, and if Firefox crashes there is a safe mode. For people who still uses dial-up 
(like me) will think twice before converting to DSL. I'm very happy with Firefox and I wonder what feature can they add in the future 'cause for me it is already complete
(like me) will think twice before converting to DSL. I'm very happy with Firefox and I wonder what feature can they add in the future 'cause for me it is already complete
Tombiepoo
Reply #25 Monday, December 20, 2004 1:29 PM
Reply #25 Monday, December 20, 2004 1:29 PM
Such a tempting topic... Yummm...
1. As SkinStudio mentioned, you can make IE just as secure. The problem is, out of the box, IE does come out less secure than FireFox. But then again, FireFox is less compatible. I'll vote for more compatibility and more care during browsing.
2. @Kobrano: HOLY CRAP! "A mere hour of web browsing with IE is all you need to have a half dozen pieces of spyware/adware installed on your PC." What the hell kind of web sites do you regularly browse? I have not had any kind of crap on my computer for about four years straight now. On the other hand a family friend's computer is contaminated by thousands of stuff just because their 15 year old downloads every crap that's forwarded to them. I'd say that's quite a user issue. Don't download porn and cracked software, and you won't have problems with that much crap.
3. Maxthon: I've been using it for a long time now (since it was MYIE2). I'd beg to differ with the notion of Maxthon being a cheap IE shell. Yes, it is an IE shell but I think it's a very useful one indeed. Mouse gestures? Got it... Tabbed browsing? Got it... Search toolbar that highlights search terms and searches the engine of your choice without having to find and download extra toolbars from here and there? Got it... Crashes? None in the past several months. I think Maxthon is definitely an alternative to using vanilla IE. And it still gives you all the compatibility that IE browsing provides.
4. JeremyG has a great point. All of these browsers are focusing on browsing only. Note that IE is used in many programs as an HTTP provider and even some programmers use it as a file viewing control on their forms. It makes developing very easy and when you deploy it on pretty much any Windows machine, you get results easily. FireFox, Opera, and the likes never address any of these needs from programmers and hence will never "replace" IE (unless attitude change happens) but merely be an alternative browser.
</2cents>
1. As SkinStudio mentioned, you can make IE just as secure. The problem is, out of the box, IE does come out less secure than FireFox. But then again, FireFox is less compatible. I'll vote for more compatibility and more care during browsing.
2. @Kobrano: HOLY CRAP! "A mere hour of web browsing with IE is all you need to have a half dozen pieces of spyware/adware installed on your PC." What the hell kind of web sites do you regularly browse? I have not had any kind of crap on my computer for about four years straight now. On the other hand a family friend's computer is contaminated by thousands of stuff just because their 15 year old downloads every crap that's forwarded to them. I'd say that's quite a user issue. Don't download porn and cracked software, and you won't have problems with that much crap.
3. Maxthon: I've been using it for a long time now (since it was MYIE2). I'd beg to differ with the notion of Maxthon being a cheap IE shell. Yes, it is an IE shell but I think it's a very useful one indeed. Mouse gestures? Got it... Tabbed browsing? Got it... Search toolbar that highlights search terms and searches the engine of your choice without having to find and download extra toolbars from here and there? Got it... Crashes? None in the past several months. I think Maxthon is definitely an alternative to using vanilla IE. And it still gives you all the compatibility that IE browsing provides.
4. JeremyG has a great point. All of these browsers are focusing on browsing only. Note that IE is used in many programs as an HTTP provider and even some programmers use it as a file viewing control on their forms. It makes developing very easy and when you deploy it on pretty much any Windows machine, you get results easily. FireFox, Opera, and the likes never address any of these needs from programmers and hence will never "replace" IE (unless attitude change happens) but merely be an alternative browser.
</2cents>
Tombiepoo
Reply #26 Monday, December 20, 2004 1:36 PM
Reply #26 Monday, December 20, 2004 1:36 PM
Oh... and don't get me started on Netscape... I have been web developing for a long while now and still the biggest pain in tha a$$ is to make everything work for the gazillion of browsers out there. i.e. different browsers translating HTML, JS, etc differently. Now we have to worry about FireFox and all the others as well! Oh joy!
I have been web developing for a long while now and still the biggest pain in tha a$$ is to make everything work for the gazillion of browsers out there. i.e. different browsers translating HTML, JS, etc differently. Now we have to worry about FireFox and all the others as well! Oh joy!
Thomas Thomassen
Reply #27 Monday, December 20, 2004 1:41 PM
Reply #27 Monday, December 20, 2004 1:41 PM
I hope this will make the IE devs get their finger in gear when it comes to working on their browser to more than security. Rendering and speed is things that'd be nice to see some work on in IE.
All though, I really don't expect to see any new IE before Longhorn. As long as the browser people use render pages according to the standards I don't care what browser people uses. I'm happy with Firefox and will stick with it until I see something amazing happend to any of the others. Yes, I have tried Opera, but I've never felt happy with it.
All though, I really don't expect to see any new IE before Longhorn. As long as the browser people use render pages according to the standards I don't care what browser people uses. I'm happy with Firefox and will stick with it until I see something amazing happend to any of the others. Yes, I have tried Opera, but I've never felt happy with it.
MadPyro
Reply #28 Monday, December 20, 2004 2:13 PM
Reply #28 Monday, December 20, 2004 2:13 PM
i personally, was a little suspisious of firefox ... but now that i switched, its sooo much better: no popups, no spyware and almost no crashing (crashed once because i was using 2gb of memory and i only have 1.5 installed 
) lol yeah i love firefox. and the thing about everyone in college using it, that just 100 PERCENT TRUE!!! i went to pick my brother up for the holidays at UW and walking down the hall, i saw at least 90 percent of the people using firefox. the rest were playing PIRATES! by sid meyer lol. either that or good ole CS. anywayas, i love firefox and ie should be tossed... too bad no way to uninstall it 
) lol yeah i love firefox. and the thing about everyone in college using it, that just 100 PERCENT TRUE!!! i went to pick my brother up for the holidays at UW and walking down the hall, i saw at least 90 percent of the people using firefox. the rest were playing PIRATES! by sid meyer lol. either that or good ole CS. anywayas, i love firefox and ie should be tossed... too bad no way to uninstall it 
PolynesianMedic
Reply #29 Monday, December 20, 2004 3:27 PM
Reply #29 Monday, December 20, 2004 3:27 PM
I love it when people are trying to get you away from something they have never tried. I have tried Netscape, IE, Opera and for almost the past year, Firefox. Let me tell you, that Opera is based on IE, so if you think that you are safer, you are wrong. I had more problems with that piece of software then I have ever had with anything. IE, well we all know how that works. Netscape, was in fact a solo competitor back in the day, that is until it was bought by AOL. That is the reason that they are not liked today. Sure the coding for Netscape comes from Mozilla, but they DO make some changes to it to suit their needs. As far as Firefox is concerned, it is the MOST customizable browser you will ever use. It is also leeps and bounds faster then IE and Opera and Netscape. Try it you'll like it, just as Mikey likes it. Happy Holidays to all.
dukeofchutney
Reply #30 Monday, December 20, 2004 4:11 PM
Reply #30 Monday, December 20, 2004 4:11 PM
IE beware, other browsers may rule the world yet...their foots in the door...
CygnusXII
Reply #31 Monday, December 20, 2004 4:26 PM
Reply #31 Monday, December 20, 2004 4:26 PM
BTW Netscape was bought by AOL, but AOL bases their browsing TECH on IE.
They continued the Monopoly case against MS and won, getting rights to IE free for 7 years I think it was, as well as other concessions and $$$. Before aquiring Netscape, they licensed IE Tech. I used to do Customer Support for MS, and mainly spent my time fixing broken DUN, and TCP-IP problems, and a host of other problems, caused by AOL Freebieware.
They continued the Monopoly case against MS and won, getting rights to IE free for 7 years I think it was, as well as other concessions and $$$. Before aquiring Netscape, they licensed IE Tech. I used to do Customer Support for MS, and mainly spent my time fixing broken DUN, and TCP-IP problems, and a host of other problems, caused by AOL Freebieware.
Septimus
Reply #32 Monday, December 20, 2004 4:52 PM
Wha?!? Where on earth did you here that. LOL
Ah well, no matter. Merry Xmas all anyway.
Reply #32 Monday, December 20, 2004 4:52 PM
Let me tell you, that Opera is based on IE
Wha?!? Where on earth did you here that. LOL
Ah well, no matter. Merry Xmas all anyway.
PixelCargo
Reply #33 Monday, December 20, 2004 5:09 PM
Reply #33 Monday, December 20, 2004 5:09 PM
Speak techy all you like , im with Firefox all the way!!! 
im only on dialup so I use the Fashget plugin for my downloads so no problems with that.
Microsoft updates only work with IE and that sucks, its like opening the door to get some fresh air but you let in cockroaches with IE.
im only on dialup so I use the Fashget plugin for my downloads so no problems with that.
Microsoft updates only work with IE and that sucks, its like opening the door to get some fresh air but you let in cockroaches with IE.
Brandon Paddock
Reply #34 Monday, December 20, 2004 7:03 PM
Maxthon is an IE shell, but it's not buggy. It's not "vulnerable to the entire internet," whatever the hell that means. Neither is IE. You see, my clients and I don't run as Administrators all the time. My clients' networks are managed by AD group policy and it does not allow them to run unapproved controls, or install browser helper objects without permission. Our systems are always patched within hours of any Windows security update being released.
The point is it's just as secure, faster, and more compatible. My clients rely on consistent access to SharePoint enabled applications, as well as IE-driven software.
Perhaps you should avoid such mind-numbingly ignorant and all-ecompassing statements in the future.
I never said that YOU shouldn't use FireFox, or that using it is a poor choice. In fact, I think competition in any market is a good thing, and I'm happy for the FireFox developers who obviously put a lot of hard work into their product.
However I am bugged by the FUD campaign led by bandwagon jumpers like yourself. IE and Maxthon work perfectly for me and for my customers, and we're not going to switch just because you called me names.
Reply #34 Monday, December 20, 2004 7:03 PM
| This is 100% NOT TRUE, and you know it.. Maxthon is nothing more than a buggy cheap IE shell browser, and as such, is vulnerable to the entire internet, just like IE is. A mere hour of web browsing with IE is all you need to have a half dozen pieces of spyware/adware installed on your PC. |
Maxthon is an IE shell, but it's not buggy. It's not "vulnerable to the entire internet," whatever the hell that means. Neither is IE. You see, my clients and I don't run as Administrators all the time. My clients' networks are managed by AD group policy and it does not allow them to run unapproved controls, or install browser helper objects without permission. Our systems are always patched within hours of any Windows security update being released.
Maxthon is no different than the 20 other cheap IE shell browsers. Whats the point of using Maxthon over Firefox? Firefox has better tab support (with Tabbed Browser Preferences), is faster, doens't infect you with spyware, and has much more stability. |
The point is it's just as secure, faster, and more compatible. My clients rely on consistent access to SharePoint enabled applications, as well as IE-driven software.
Bottom line, anyone that still uses IE, is either in denial, or just doesn't understand computers very well. |
Perhaps you should avoid such mind-numbingly ignorant and all-ecompassing statements in the future.
I never said that YOU shouldn't use FireFox, or that using it is a poor choice. In fact, I think competition in any market is a good thing, and I'm happy for the FireFox developers who obviously put a lot of hard work into their product.
However I am bugged by the FUD campaign led by bandwagon jumpers like yourself. IE and Maxthon work perfectly for me and for my customers, and we're not going to switch just because you called me names.
Kobrano
Reply #36 Monday, December 20, 2004 7:41 PM
Thats not fully true, and is a bit misleading I think. I've done security and antivirus consulting for about 3 years, and i've extensively tested IE under controlled circumstances and found even locked down, it is still highly vulnerable - even in the hands of an expert. Theres been a succession of things such as Pageframe exploits, Javascripts (Targetting IE only), and many others - that despite locking down hActiveX, still manage to cause issues. About the best you can do is use IE with zones, and even then, its still not perfect, and you are left with less than satisfactory browsing.
There are little dozens of examples out there, one nice little one is the Cross Site Scripting vulnerability, which doesn't effect Firefox of course,but affects all IE, even patched IE's. Bottom line, even locking down IE isn't going to prevent problems, we've tested that, and it failed. Firefox closes you out from about 99% of the exploits and problems out there, and its ridiculous to ignore that and continue exclusively using IE.
Here, try another vulnerability here yourself: Link Note that Firefox isn't effected yet again.
Reply #36 Monday, December 20, 2004 7:41 PM
| Disable ActiveX + use a tabbed shell to IE and you have more or less matched standard Firefox (no extensions). |
Thats not fully true, and is a bit misleading I think. I've done security and antivirus consulting for about 3 years, and i've extensively tested IE under controlled circumstances and found even locked down, it is still highly vulnerable - even in the hands of an expert. Theres been a succession of things such as Pageframe exploits, Javascripts (Targetting IE only), and many others - that despite locking down hActiveX, still manage to cause issues. About the best you can do is use IE with zones, and even then, its still not perfect, and you are left with less than satisfactory browsing.
There are little dozens of examples out there, one nice little one is the Cross Site Scripting vulnerability, which doesn't effect Firefox of course,but affects all IE, even patched IE's. Bottom line, even locking down IE isn't going to prevent problems, we've tested that, and it failed. Firefox closes you out from about 99% of the exploits and problems out there, and its ridiculous to ignore that and continue exclusively using IE.
Oh, and where did I "Call you names" Paddock? Try not to be so sensitive when you are shown to be incorrect about something, it does wonders to kill your cause.
Here, try another vulnerability here yourself: Link Note that Firefox isn't effected yet again.
Brandon Paddock
Reply #37 Monday, December 20, 2004 7:44 PM
Doesn't work against me (running Maxthon on XP SP2). Just shows "Script Error!" in the status bar when I click on the link.
You said I must be "in denial, or just don't understand very much about computers." I consider that name-calling.
Now that's just scary.
Reply #37 Monday, December 20, 2004 7:44 PM
| Cross Site Scripting vulnerability, which doesn't effect Firefox of course, but affects all IE, even patched IE's. |
Doesn't work against me (running Maxthon on XP SP2). Just shows "Script Error!" in the status bar when I click on the link.
| Oh, and where did I "Call you names" Paddock? Try not to be so sensitive when you are shown to be incorrect about something, it does wonders to kill your cause. |
You said I must be "in denial, or just don't understand very much about computers." I consider that name-calling.
| I've done security and antivirus consulting for about 3 years |
Now that's just scary.
Kobrano
Reply #38 Monday, December 20, 2004 7:48 PM
Are we talking IE or IE shells now? I was talking IE for this specific vulnerability. I think Maxthon hacked in some code to disable that exploit.
For IE shells, well, I have plenty of links that blow up Maxthon, but won't post them here, because frankly, they could cause someone to get trojans, and that would be a bad thing. But I still wonder why people use Maxthon/MYIE2, when Firefox does the same or more, and isn't vulnerable to much of anything.
Not that i'm a Firefox fanboy, its just that if more people used it, it would save me a ton of work going around and cleaning the crap off friends machines for them. Thank god I got my entire family and relatives all running Firefox - its been peaceful this year.
I think IE is big business for AntiSpyware companies, I mean with Firefox installed, you wouldn't need all these fluffy products like Adaware and Spybot.
Reply #38 Monday, December 20, 2004 7:48 PM
Doesn't work against me (running Maxthon on XP SP2). Just shows "Script Error!" in the status bar when I click on the link. |
Are we talking IE or IE shells now? I was talking IE for this specific vulnerability. I think Maxthon hacked in some code to disable that exploit.
For IE shells, well, I have plenty of links that blow up Maxthon, but won't post them here, because frankly, they could cause someone to get trojans, and that would be a bad thing. But I still wonder why people use Maxthon/MYIE2, when Firefox does the same or more, and isn't vulnerable to much of anything.
Not that i'm a Firefox fanboy, its just that if more people used it, it would save me a ton of work going around and cleaning the crap off friends machines for them. Thank god I got my entire family and relatives all running Firefox - its been peaceful this year.
I think IE is big business for AntiSpyware companies, I mean with Firefox installed, you wouldn't need all these fluffy products like Adaware and Spybot.
Brandon Paddock
Reply #39 Monday, December 20, 2004 7:55 PM
Reply #39 Monday, December 20, 2004 7:55 PM
I just tried it in plain old IE.
It says "Internet Explorer has blocked this site from using an ActiveX control in an unsafe manner" in the Information Bar.
It says "Internet Explorer has blocked this site from using an ActiveX control in an unsafe manner" in the Information Bar.
paxx
Reply #40 Monday, December 20, 2004 8:22 PM
Reply #40 Monday, December 20, 2004 8:22 PM
The problem with IE is not that its a bad browser, it's actually an OK browser, although I've been waiting for full PNG support in IE for ages, and it problably will never come at this rate. The main problem with IE is that it's integrated in your system. Active X are not a problem per say, nor are VB Script or Javascript. The problem is that once you find a way to exploit these technologies in IE, you can get complete access to an IE user's computer, and do some real damage. If IE was tied in the system so much, it wouldn't be a problem.
THAT's why Firefox, Mozilla, Opera or any non-IE browsers are more secure.
Aside from that, the reason I like Firefox so much:
- Extensions
- Extensions
- Extensions
!!!!
With the available extensions (and new ones are made every day) you can pretty much custom build the browser you want.
THAT's why Firefox, Mozilla, Opera or any non-IE browsers are more secure.
Aside from that, the reason I like Firefox so much:
- Extensions
- Extensions
- Extensions
!!!!
With the available extensions (and new ones are made every day) you can pretty much custom build the browser you want.
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Reply #21 Monday, December 20, 2004 12:10 PM
Disable ActiveX + use a tabbed shell to IE and you have more or less matched standard Firefox (no extensions).
That said - I use Firefox as my primary browser but all the myths around it are kind of funny. I am impressed how well Gecko (the rendering engine) works, though I am MUCH less impressed with their GUI toolkit. It simply does not look well with almost all dark WindowBlins skins and even MSStyles. Not to count it's other sizing and painting bugs. I can live with them - because as a whole it's really a decent and well put together set but in my understanding there is nothing in Firefox Microsoft could not match within a month of development.
As someone said it once: When in doubt - throw money at it.