Skinner reward proposal #2
Tuesday, October 12, 2004 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Okay, how about this concept for rewarding skinners:
WinCustomize starts running regular contests in which the top 10 skins in terms of downloads by users who are also subscribers get a percentage of the revenue we receive from new subscriptions. It would be done for only certain sections so that we could highlight a given section for that period (and we could even have multiple sections featured in a given time).
So at the end of the 3 months, we would tally the # of downloads that were done by subsribers (best way to avoid download stuffing since it's hard to "stuff the ballot" that way).
So the top skin would get something like $200. Second place $150, third $100. Fourth $50. Fifth $25. Sixth through 10th $20. This would depend on the # of subscribers of course but it would be in this ballpark.
A given skin author could make the top 5 skins though and collect it all. So it would favor quality skins and quantity.
So let's say we started the first one in January and focused it on WindowBlinds and Iconpackager. The following one might focus on DesktopX and CursorXP. And so forth.
What do you guys think?
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Reply #22 Tuesday, October 12, 2004 6:36 PM
Frankly, if there was an option to make a "Donation" on a skinners WC address (WC2k5) I would probably be clicking that option quite a bit.
Reply #23 Tuesday, October 12, 2004 6:39 PM
Though this should not be carried to an extreme. If someone builds an awesome original WB skin but get's permission or uses a GPLed set of animations or tool bar Icons that should be accepted.
Unfortunatly to make things fair for everyone including you and stardock there will have to be a set of rules drawn up, I would hate to see another mess like the first GUI Olympics......
But if all this is too much, remember you are the Owner and you can set things up how you want but, you will have to take the grief if it goes wrong.
Reply #24 Tuesday, October 12, 2004 6:40 PM
Now there's an Idea!
Reply #25 Tuesday, October 12, 2004 7:17 PM
My point is that, I don't think DLs is the best criteria for giving awards/rewards, as something that looks great in preview may be a dud, and conversely a design that looks ho-hum may turn out to be a real winner.
I think rewarding talent and hard work is the right thing to do, but maybe some kind of vote (by WC subscribers) or rating on a selection of skins chosen by the Admins would better serve the purpose.
Reply #26 Tuesday, October 12, 2004 9:08 PM
It seems to me there are two issues: 1) What should the reward criteria be: download quantity, ratings, judged quality ala GUI-Olympics, etc. 2) What is trying to be accomplished.
As for #1, I would say only two things: There ought to be some kind of historical consideration, to reward people who have already contributed and have hundreds of thousands if not millions of downloads. Those people definitely deserver recognition, and something that only takes into account "downloads over this three month period" doesn't do that. Secondly, it has to be a separate competition for those people, because if the awards are download based, and historical downloads are taken into account, no one new will ever win, since they cannot make up a two or three year headstart. New people who are doing quality or popular work (or whatever criteria is decided upon) should also be recognized, even though they could not compete in download count with someone like Apocalypse_67.
Regarding #2, with the talk of the competition being open to "skinners who are also subscribers" makes me wonder what the point is. If it's to reward subscribers, that's one thing. But if it's to reward people who are supporting the site, I would say that their subscriber status is totally irrelevant. If someone is producing quality work that gets downloads, THAT is supporting the site. It generates traffic, and interest, and that is what produces subscribers. It's the content... the people who are producing the content are supporting the site. Suppose someone like Tiggz wasn't a subscriber (I have no clue if he is or not) Who brings in more money to the site, "Bob" with his individual subscription, or Tiggz because of the people who have subscribed to get his content? Rewarding only skinners who have paid subscription money reminds me of the Vietnam area when we drafted young men to fight before they were old enough to vote. If someone's content is good enough to be accepted/published/win the contest or whatever, is it fair to use their content, but to keep them from the rewards.
I'm not trying to sound ungrateful.. I think the concept overall is a very nice gesture. In fact, I was under the impression Frogboy had said WC hemmoraged a lot of money on a monthly basis, and thus I didn't think anything like this was remotely feasible.
Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded. I'll hush up now. Cheers...
Reply #27 Tuesday, October 12, 2004 9:34 PM
| In fact, I was under the impression Frogboy had said WC hemmoraged a lot of money on a monthly basis, and thus I didn't think anything like this was remotely feasible. |
Apart from some spelling, this is entirely true. The intention of this proposal is to promote further subscriptions to allay this deficit.
To do this it's appropriate that the recipient of contribution income be themselves a contributor aka subscriber else it tends to defeat the purpose.
Retrospectivity with regards to skinning content will disadvantage those newcomers to the site and thus dissuade them from participating/subscribing, as it's impractical for them to expect to catch up to the prolific skinners of the likes of Adni18, etc.
DL counts over a specific [perhaps hidden] time period would work quite well, however I'm of the opinion that 'attractant' titles such as 'Longhorn Luna XP' Beatnik skin should be filtered for exclusion as they are honey-pot terms that have no bearing on the standard of work what-so-ever but are used purely to generate download counts by those who have issues of aberrant ego.
Pre-occupation with Download counts is not in itself something that ought to be rewarded. High DL count incidental to skin standard should be the criteria.
Hopefully, however, people will see Frogboy's proposal as a 'thankyou' gift, not a case for argument and dissention.
The concept is [to use Frogboy's fave saying] that "a rising tide lifts all boats"......with increases to subscription numbers 'can' come increases to recompense for those who help make Wincustomize.com what it is...
Reply #28 Tuesday, October 12, 2004 10:39 PM
| Hopefully, however, people will see Frogboy's proposal as a 'thankyou' gift, not a case for argument and dissention. |
I so agree...well said!
Reply #29 Tuesday, October 12, 2004 11:17 PM
>to allay this deficit.
Encouraging further subscriptions is a laudable and necessary goal. However, by targeting skinners as the pool from which to obtain additional subscriptions, it strikes me somewhat as double-dipping.
>To do this it's appropriate that the recipient of contribution
>income be themselves a contributor aka subscriber else it tends to
>defeat the purpose.
I guess that's it. I don't think it is appropriate because those people already ARE contributing. "Give us the product of your labors so that our site can have something to offer, oh yeah and your money too." Wouldn't a more appropriate base be those people who are NOT contributing skinners? Already there is a download limit for people who are neither skinners nor OD.Net owners nor financial contributors. Mabey the incentive for subscribing, or disincentive for not, needs to be enhanced somehow. The true solution is probably complicated. I personally would have no ethical problem with eliminating parasites by saying "You can download nothing but Screenshots, wallpapers and bootskins if you're not a subscriber. Subscription fees are waived for significant contributors of content."
Frogboy's proposal, if implemented fairly, will indeed be a nice "thank you" and I share your hope that people will see that. But I imagine that, as with anytime that money or competition is involved, there will inevitably be arguments...
I just think that the way it's currently being thought of, making the subscription a pre-requisite for receiving "appreciation" for their skins, sends the message that the skinner's work product isn't really valued, that only the money they pay has real significance. To continue my Tiggz reference from before, if I were the operator of a site like this, I would be so glad to be getting Tiggz' work that I wouldn't feel comfortable asking him for money, too. But mabey that's just me.
As for myself, I don't think monetary rewards are necessary. I'm not doing it for the money. I'd be just as happy if they made announcements, or just gave out free premium skins or OD subscriptions or something if they wanted it to be more tangible.
Reply #30 Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:52 AM
Will Rose....so often people ascribe a disproportionate 'value' to the skinners' contribution via submitted content and forget it is actually a true symbiotic relationship.
Certainly Wincustomize needs the content but it's important to remember that by and large, skinners also need the public exposure only sites such as Wincustomize can offer.
I know that were I to have a private site of my own I'd be hardly likely to have over a thousand 'reg'd users' accessing it at any one time, nor could I afford the associated band-width demands to do so.
Symbiotic relationships require contribution from both parties. High-volume, popular skinners, yes, they DO provide the content, but consequently their skin downloads also contribute significantly to the running costs of the site which is largely financed by Stardock.
Now, if there's a requirement to be a subscriber to participate in remuneration it cannot be a 'bad thing' if in doing so you actually end up effectively refunded, and/or better still, come out ahead.
Generally people do support the site by more than 'just' their upload content but also through purchases, subscriptions, etc....and THAT is the 'good thing'....
Personally, I see no reason why I would not subscribe to a site which hosts my works for me, or financially support it in other ways as well, so I do. I have around 150,000 downloads....dunno what that would cost specifically, but I'm betting Stardock paid for most of it, since a subscription, tee-shirts, CDs, etc can only go so far...
Reply #31 Wednesday, October 13, 2004 2:49 AM
BTW, I also thought some more about the previous idea you had and it was cool too)
Reply #32 Wednesday, October 13, 2004 3:42 AM
It always surprises me when people underestimate the value of content. I don't want to get into a chicken or the egg argument about content vs. distribution... But to accept your notion of symbiosis presupposes that the skinner derives some benefit from Wincustomize hosting their skin. WC derives benefit, as it provides the content that make the various Stardock products marketable. No one would buy Windowblinds if there were no skins for it, I would imagine. So do the skinners benefit? When WC provides the service of hosting a skin, who is the main beneficiary of that service: the skinner, or the guy that downloads and uses the skin? If a skinner is making money from his product being hosted here, then you are absolutely correct. Likewise if the skinner somehow benefits from the exposure he receives from having his work hosted here. Honestly, though, it would be interesting to know for what fraction of skinners those things are true. What about you? For myself, I provide content simply because I think other people might enjoy it. I enjoy creating, but once done, it doesn't really matter whether 1 or 100,000 people use it. I derive no benefit from it financially, nor is exposure of this type beneficial to me in any way. I would imagine many skinners here are in the same situation, unless perhaps their benefit is some sort of psychological satisfaction from the knowledge that x people are using their skin. Obviously there are "professional skinners" and those people are exceptions to what I'm talking about. They would, as you point out, have a symbiotic relationship. Regardless, WC is certainly a great site, and deserves to be supported. Cheers...
Reply #33 Wednesday, October 13, 2004 4:23 AM
It sounds like an excellent proposal, and a very nice gesture. I would only suggest that the Wallpaper and Bootskins sections be excluded for obvious reasons.
Cheers...
Will
(slinking away to get new bifocals)
[Message Edited]
Reply #34 Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:32 AM
Will....Wincustomize is [virtually] free advertising for a skinner's talents....no door-knocking required...no flyers....no billboard posting fees....etc, etc.
From this the potential reward to the skinner is measurable.....by looking at those who currently find careers/income through this skill use ....
Reply #35 Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:52 AM
Reply #36 Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:53 AM
Reply #37 Wednesday, October 13, 2004 11:11 AM
I still feel that there should be skins that recieve "special treatment" in the form of subscriber only downloads, and think that a special library section for subscriber only skins would be an incentive for subscription purchase.
is there a way to tie in the contest/award idea to subscriber only library content?
Just my thoughts on the subject, nothing more.
Reply #38 Wednesday, October 13, 2004 11:51 AM
To quote myself:
>If a skinner is making money from his product being hosted here,
>then you are absolutely correct. Likewise if the skinner somehow
>benefits from the exposure he receives from having his work hosted
>here.
I already acknowledged the exception of professional or semi-professional skinners, those who make money from their skins or whose careers are enhanced by the exposure. Those skinners obviously benefit from WC. I am speaking speaking about the rest of the skinners.
Won't you acknowledge that some proportion of the skinners do it for no other reason than they enjoy the activity of skinning, and provide their work as a gift to the community although their careers are completely unrelated to skinning?
Reply #39 Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:17 PM
Yes, most skinners do it for the enjoyment only and not for commercial gain....and they also are not 'forced' to pay for their enjoyment by contributing to the cost of displaying their joyous creations....
Remember....commercial artisan or hobbyist alike both benefit equally through others' subsidy of their works....
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Reply #21 Tuesday, October 12, 2004 4:54 PM