The Premium skins poll - (week of 7/14)
Tuesday, July 13, 2004 by Kyhlwch | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Your current poll - "Would you use Premium skins?" needs a few more choices if you want an accurate result.
I vote, "It's reasonable for skins creators to charge for their work but I personally can't spend any more money on this hobby than I already have."
There really are positions between "I like to support skinners" and "I don't like to support skinners."
I vote, "It's reasonable for skins creators to charge for their work but I personally can't spend any more money on this hobby than I already have."
There really are positions between "I like to support skinners" and "I don't like to support skinners."
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Septimus
Reply #2 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 2:37 AM
Reply #2 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 2:37 AM
But to be fair some of the premium skins aren't good. The poll is a little too black and white.
[Message Edited]
[Message Edited]
Apocalypse_67
Reply #3 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:41 AM
Reply #3 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:41 AM
Well I think is a rather simple question which breaks down to two simple answers
Either you thinks premium skins IS and good idea or you DONT.
Authors already share their skins for free putting all of their efforts in their work, but as far a quality skins go, well that’s a matter of opinion but I presume it will be left up to moderation to determine which skins are crafted with enough quality, details and functionality to be put up for sale.
Again, it is all a matter of opinion and choice. Free skins are always going to be here, it is up to the users to choose if they want to purchase a premium skin or not.
My 2 cents
Either you thinks premium skins IS and good idea or you DONT.
Authors already share their skins for free putting all of their efforts in their work, but as far a quality skins go, well that’s a matter of opinion but I presume it will be left up to moderation to determine which skins are crafted with enough quality, details and functionality to be put up for sale.
| But to be fair some of the premium skins aren't good. |
Again, it is all a matter of opinion and choice. Free skins are always going to be here, it is up to the users to choose if they want to purchase a premium skin or not.
My 2 cents
Latin4567
Reply #4 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 6:18 AM
Reply #4 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 6:18 AM
or maybe we need choices like:
Do you think Citizens should be able to offer premium suites >
Do you think Citizens should be able to offer premium suites >
Kevin_C
Reply #5 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 7:06 AM
Reply #5 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 7:06 AM
I'll take a stab at that one latin.. No, I absolutely do not think that someone who just signs up for a membership to the site (a citizen) should be able to sell themes here. I think that the folks at SD are dead on when they say that the right to offer premium content should be reserved for those people who have shown that they are part of the skinning community first and foremost before they try and profit from it. If a citizen wants to offer premium content web hosting is cheap, and it's very easy to setup a paypal account to accept payments..
Septimus
Reply #6 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 10:13 AM
Reply #6 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 10:13 AM
It's more the answers I dont agree with. "Yes, I like being able to support skinners and get very high quality content".
As seen, paying for something doesn't guarantee nor indicate quality or the continual production of it. Recently skins by, for example, brewman and his DogmaX I feel would be worthy of purchase and have proven far more usable than the majority of recent Premium skins.
As a whole, Premium "Suites" when put together correctly and include icons, skins et al are a good idea and worth the money. I have purchased some from Pixtudio before.
But as a whole based on the general style of most premium suites they do not suite 'my own' taste. For example most icons in the Premium packages are excellent and I'd use but not the skins they come with. I would like a seperate option to just purchase the icons in some instances.
As seen, paying for something doesn't guarantee nor indicate quality or the continual production of it. Recently skins by, for example, brewman and his DogmaX I feel would be worthy of purchase and have proven far more usable than the majority of recent Premium skins.
As a whole, Premium "Suites" when put together correctly and include icons, skins et al are a good idea and worth the money. I have purchased some from Pixtudio before.
But as a whole based on the general style of most premium suites they do not suite 'my own' taste. For example most icons in the Premium packages are excellent and I'd use but not the skins they come with. I would like a seperate option to just purchase the icons in some instances.
Apocalypse_67
Reply #7 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 3:30 PM
Reply #7 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 3:30 PM
A very understandable point Sept1mus, but you must keep in mind that the authors of these skins make them for their personal use and/or taste and post them up for sharing or sale. It is up to the user to choose if it's appealing enough to purchase.
Same order applies to the suites. The author puts together a suite based on his style and taste while taking under consideration what generally catches the public's attention. The only way an author will create a 'perfect' theme suitable for your taste, is by contract.
Most premium suites go for about $10.00 USD. To sell the IconPack separetely, it will be around $9.00 USD. So why break up the package?
Now, in regards to the "Yes, I like being able to support skinners and get very high quality content" answer (and this is my oppinion as a skinner) When creating a skin to share most skinners will make something functional and generally appealing to the public, but when creating a skin for sales purpose, a lot more work in the details and funtions will go into the skin. Also the skin will be carefully tested to ensure that it works perfect as opposed to the free sharing version where if it has an error the author will fix it (whenever) and update it (whenever)
Same order applies to the suites. The author puts together a suite based on his style and taste while taking under consideration what generally catches the public's attention. The only way an author will create a 'perfect' theme suitable for your taste, is by contract.
Most premium suites go for about $10.00 USD. To sell the IconPack separetely, it will be around $9.00 USD. So why break up the package?
Now, in regards to the "Yes, I like being able to support skinners and get very high quality content" answer (and this is my oppinion as a skinner) When creating a skin to share most skinners will make something functional and generally appealing to the public, but when creating a skin for sales purpose, a lot more work in the details and funtions will go into the skin. Also the skin will be carefully tested to ensure that it works perfect as opposed to the free sharing version where if it has an error the author will fix it (whenever) and update it (whenever)
NightTrainthedark
Reply #8 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:01 PM
Reply #8 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:01 PM
I don't see the issue here. It's worth a try. Frogboy said that only qualified skinners will be able to post their work for sale. Someone that has a master level has been around a long long time and has earned the respect of everyone that is into customizing. Suppose a "Master skinner" puts up his/ her skins for sale. If you don't like it, you don't buy it. Plain and simple. The same quality of skins will still be available with a WC subscription. There will always be new people coming and going striving to reach the "Master level". I mean that's what it is all about isn't it? Trying to create "that masterpiece". One man's masterpiece is another man's trash. It works in the reverse also. Brewman, Apoc 67, Tiggz, etc. are all journeyman and they continue to pump out top notch work. Someday when the skinning gods bless them with the "master" level there will people to fill their spots. However, I think it is still important for anyone that gets to the master level to not forget about all the citizens that downloaded their work and gave them the confidence to get better. Even a master still needs to do free stuff. 
Frogboy
Reply #9 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:05 PM
Reply #9 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:05 PM
BTW, one of the reasons we would only sell the content of skinners who have made it to Master (or possibly Journeyman access) is because so much of the premium suite market is supported by users who recognize the contribution of those authors.
People support people like Mormegil because he's made probably a hundred megabytes of free icons over the years for people.
Apocalypse_67
Reply #10 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:51 PM
Reply #10 Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:51 PM
That is the most clear and logical explanation of how the selling of premium skins will be handled.
NT you mention a very good thing to keep in mind. For the past year and a half that I've been here on WC and contributing to the skinning community, I have always seen (and admire) top notch authors such as Mormegil, Pixtudio, TSF, Adni (just to name a few) for sharing their work for free aside from the work they put up for sale. Something we all need to learn and not forget.
NT you mention a very good thing to keep in mind. For the past year and a half that I've been here on WC and contributing to the skinning community, I have always seen (and admire) top notch authors such as Mormegil, Pixtudio, TSF, Adni (just to name a few) for sharing their work for free aside from the work they put up for sale. Something we all need to learn and not forget.
EventHorizon
Reply #11 Thursday, July 15, 2004 6:31 PM
Reply #11 Thursday, July 15, 2004 6:31 PM
I for one am astounded at the number of people who have voted, "2- No, skins and themes should always be free and stay that way." 
Proficient skinners most definately deserve some 'payback' for their hard work, and no doubt this will give up-and-coming skinners (like myself) more incentive to work harder, and produce higher quality skins, so that they might attain the honorable rank of 'Master.'
'Skins should always be free.'
I think not. The very 'free-ness' of the free skins is what drives many of the 'greats' to disappear... Skinning takes time...lots of it. And when that time takes away from 'real-life' without any real, tangible, 'return'...That can be quite a 'turn off.'
Sure, they can set up their own site and sell skins from there, but what kind of traffic/exposure will they get? Definately not the same kind they would get here, at the most popular skin site on the 'net.
Remember, Masters are the cream of the crop, the best of the best. And only they will be able to sell their wares...
Proficient skinners most definately deserve some 'payback' for their hard work, and no doubt this will give up-and-coming skinners (like myself) more incentive to work harder, and produce higher quality skins, so that they might attain the honorable rank of 'Master.'
'Skins should always be free.'
I think not. The very 'free-ness' of the free skins is what drives many of the 'greats' to disappear... Skinning takes time...lots of it. And when that time takes away from 'real-life' without any real, tangible, 'return'...That can be quite a 'turn off.'
Sure, they can set up their own site and sell skins from there, but what kind of traffic/exposure will they get? Definately not the same kind they would get here, at the most popular skin site on the 'net.
Remember, Masters are the cream of the crop, the best of the best. And only they will be able to sell their wares...
Apocalypse_67
Reply #12 Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:00 PM
Reply #12 Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:00 PM
Good point EH.
This is a clear case of "Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free"
I too am amazed at the numbers on the 'Skins should always be free' answer. These are obviously the group of people that have no consideration for the time and effort put into making these skins. Not to mention the money spent on graphic programs and I'm willing to bet that most of those that voted have no design skills nor have the sligthest clue of what is involved on the creation of a skin.
I cant help but wonder what they will do if all skinners stop skinning for free.
OH, the horror!!!
[Message Edited]
This is a clear case of "Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free"
I too am amazed at the numbers on the 'Skins should always be free' answer. These are obviously the group of people that have no consideration for the time and effort put into making these skins. Not to mention the money spent on graphic programs and I'm willing to bet that most of those that voted have no design skills nor have the sligthest clue of what is involved on the creation of a skin.
I cant help but wonder what they will do if all skinners stop skinning for free.
OH, the horror!!!
[Message Edited]
Jafo
Reply #13 Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:21 PM
Reply #13 Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:21 PM
It's a fair and reasonable bet that most, if not all skinners would be voting 'Yes', while the majority of non-skinners would vote 'No'.
A poll such as this can cause inaccuracies through 'vested interests'....[skinners are more likely to respond to something which potentially affects their income]....and through physical numbers....[more people do not skin - but use them than those who both make and use them].
The only way to get a better interpretation/understanding of the demographics involved is to set the poll to 4 sections.....skinners for 'yes'....skinners for 'no'....non-skinners for 'yes'....non-skinners for 'no'.
It's not discriminatory, just explanatory....
voo
Reply #14 Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:35 PM
That'll be the day I set my viewing/rate level to 9 or 10 or just not attend due to crap recolours.
It sickens me to this day how to many people have no respect for quality and time, I just find it not worth the time anymore to release stuff because people expect everything for free and even when it is free they ask for more stuff like "is that all".
I was led to believe if the quality was so outstanding people would pay for it no matter what. But I guess I was wrong FREE is more important than quality so it seem's. Then they bitch about it on forums of where is quality designs and they wonder why... hmmmmmmmm hard to figure out isn't it.
Reply #14 Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:35 PM
| #12 by Scribe Apocalypse_67 - 7/15/2004 8:00:30 PM I cant help but wonder what they will do if all skinners stop skinning for free. OH, the horror!!! |
That'll be the day I set my viewing/rate level to 9 or 10 or just not attend due to crap recolours.
It sickens me to this day how to many people have no respect for quality and time, I just find it not worth the time anymore to release stuff because people expect everything for free and even when it is free they ask for more stuff like "is that all".
I was led to believe if the quality was so outstanding people would pay for it no matter what. But I guess I was wrong FREE is more important than quality so it seem's. Then they bitch about it on forums of where is quality designs and they wonder why... hmmmmmmmm hard to figure out isn't it.
EventHorizon
Reply #15 Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:38 PM
I think it's more 'ignorance' of the work involved, rather than 'I dont give a rip' (no pun intended)...
[Message Edited]
Reply #15 Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:38 PM
| These are obviously the group of people that have no consideration for the time and effort put into making these skins. |
I think it's more 'ignorance' of the work involved, rather than 'I dont give a rip' (no pun intended)...
[Message Edited]
WOM
Reply #16 Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:51 PM
Reply #16 Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:51 PM
Even though I've already posted, I do support the concept of premium skins.You spend 1-2 months doing an entire suite of skins plus all the expense in programs, it would be nice if the skinner (or their spouse) could recoop some of the investment.
goodmorphing
Reply #17 Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:59 PM
Reply #17 Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:59 PM
Maybe when people read the second question they got afraid it was an either/or situation.
Frogboy
Reply #18 Thursday, July 15, 2004 9:40 PM
Reply #18 Thursday, July 15, 2004 9:40 PM
I know of a number of skinners who could make a living selling premium suites. You'd have to make two per quarter to do it but you could do it.
EventHorizon
Reply #19 Thursday, July 15, 2004 9:43 PM
No doubt about it. Treetog does that, no?
Reply #19 Thursday, July 15, 2004 9:43 PM
| I know of a number of skinners who could make a living selling premium suites. |
No doubt about it. Treetog does that, no?
Hus
Reply #20 Thursday, July 15, 2004 9:46 PM
Reply #20 Thursday, July 15, 2004 9:46 PM
It's a method of growth, for all sides. The masters will want to make as much money as they can (otherwise whats the point of making a premium skin) so expect GUIO style or better quality and attention to detail, the non-masters will want to get up to master so they too can reap the benefits, they will want to impress, so they try harder. The user gets a ton more premium skins to choose from, a store full of skins from the masters. WinCustomize becomes the only worth-while marketplace for skinners to show their stuff. What's the downside to this again? 
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Reply #1 Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:19 PM
Like get very high quality content. If the people that would be uploading premium skins I'am sure are not putting lower quality work on WC and only high quality work to sell. I'am sure both would be high quality. If not then why download the free ones by that person.
Just my 2 cents. Hope I made sense.