shamefull, regrettable, howeveR: that is like throwing someone in jail because they were thinking the thought of killing someone.

You mean like starting a war on another country because the "may do something bad"?

northwoods, luckily, never happened .. and for that, you can't use that in an arguement.

Operation Northwoods was scrapped because the president back then, JFK,
got wind of it and exposed the plot.

From ABC News article:

Friendly Fire
Book: U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities to Provoke War With Cuba

"America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation.""

""The plans had the written approval of all of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and were presented to President Kennedy's defense secretary, Robert McNamara, in March 1962. But they apparently were rejected by the civilian leadership and have gone undisclosed for nearly 40 years.

"These were Joint Chiefs of Staff documents. The reason these were held secret for so long is the Joint Chiefs never wanted to give these up because they were so embarrassing," Bamford told ABCNEWS.com.

"The whole point of a democracy is to have leaders responding to the public will, and here this is the complete reverse, the military trying to trick the American people into a war that they want but that nobody else wants.""
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html


The reason I brought up Operation Northwoods was the similarities
between then and now.

In 1962 the "top brass" wanted a Remember the Maine" incident to
fool the American people into supporting an attack on Cuba.

In 2000 the blueprint "Rebuilding America's Defenses" was finished
by the group of people of whom many are now found IN the Bush administration.

The group goes by the name "PNAC" or "Project For The New American Century".

"PNAC" was formed back in 1997 and includes "security
advisors" going back to Nixon, characters from Iran-Contra,
the so called "Drug Wars", "Christian Values" groups, Jewish
and Israeli lobbyists. It features heads of Lockheed, Boeing,
and other military suppliers and contractors.
Included are senior editors of the major "right-leaning"
publications, as well as current staffers of the Bush administration
(including Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz)."

PNAC completed the blueprint "Rebuilding America's Defenses"
in 2000 (before "W" was made "president"). It explains what
THEY wanted done in order to ensure what they call
"U.S. global domination".

"Rebuilding America's Defenses" was ordered by Dick Cheney,
Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Jeb Bush (yeah, George's brother,
also guvernor in FL) and Lewis Libby (Cheney's "chief of staff"):

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Among other things, you will find that they urge development of
"advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes"
and which "may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror
to a politically useful tool."

(This must mean that they give green light for the rest of the world
to bomb Washington DC in order to catch the Bush administration
"dead or alive", no?)

In the "Rebuilding America's Defenses" blueprint you will also find
"pre-emptive strikes", military presence in Gulf, "anti-terrorist" plans,
making up new useful "enemies" like North Korea, Iran, Syria etc. etc.

So far Bush's "big bully" policies are based almost verbatim
on the "policies" drawn up by PNAC.

A couple of enlighting links:

*The "New Pearl Harbor" and The Project for the New American Century*
"What was needed for America to dominate much of humanity and the world's resources, it said, was "some catastrophic and catalysing event - like a new Pearl Harbor". The attacks of 11 September 2001 provided the "new Pearl Harbor", described as "the opportunity of ages"."
http://pilger.carlton.com/print/124759

*Iraq 'regime change' planned before Bush "became" President*
http://www.sundayherald.com/27735
(this is the article that put the spotlight on PNAC)

*"Five months before September 11, the US advocated using force against Iraq ... to secure control of its oil. Neil Mackay on the document which casts doubt on the administration"
http://www.sundayherald.com/28224

now, for the suspects.. i don't know where you're getting the fbi 'has no idea who is behind it' because from what i've been following of the 9/11 comission, the fbi has been defending themselves with the substantial evidence of who was communicated by what, and when the dates were that got delayed, and so on.

Yes, isn't it fascinating how they are still trying to spin those stories around and around.
It's like they think that the more times they repeat it the more credible it will become.
Maybe they are right, maybe people are too lazy to pay attention anymore.

Did you notice that they actually don't provide ANY evidence whatsoever on who were "actually"
behind the 9/11 atrocities? What people are told are only the same vague statements about
people who they say are "believed to be" or "suspected to be" or "alleged".

Funny how NORAD and the NRO were practicing "war games" on the morning of 9/11.
Yep, it's true, NORAD and the NRO said they were busy simulating responses
to a scenario in which hijacked planes were crashed into buildings.

Also funny about the audio tapes on which all of the flight controllers and
employees - who were on the job at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center
(ARTCC) in Ronkonkoma, N.Y., during the World Trade Center attacks -
"gathered several hours after to recall their version of events."

That tape, "which could have helped determine how the agency responded to clues
that four planes had been "hijacked", was destroyed before it was ever heard."

"In fact, officials at the ARTCC were never even told of the tape's existence. According to the report given to the 9/11 Commission by Department of Transportation Inspector General Kenneth Mead, the audiotape was crushed in the hand of the unnamed FAA employee, then cut into small pieces and tossed into different trash cans around the ARTCC building."
The 9/11 USAF Stand Down
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/911stand.html

Some other interesting links:

Stand Down
http://standdown.net/

NEW Marrs' book on 9-11 Findings Burgeoning Citizens' Movement: "Official Story is Dead"
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/06/291284.shtml



[Message Edited]

Styl, Starfish...

I'll bet it just really ticks you off that you can't come over here and fix things for us poor dumb americans. I'll bet it really makes you mad that you can't do the one thing us americans can do in regards to Bush...vote.

It's amazing how easy it is to criticize something you truly know so little about. From another country no less. America bashers...that's what makes me so mad.

Do you really think you know so much more than the rest of us. What is your point? Are you trying to persude me to vote against Bush. If so, it's not working.

Forgive me...I'm not going to get wrapped up in this. You all are entitled to your opinion and you are all allowed to post it here assuming an Admin doesn't say differantly. I, however, will not post in this thread again. Or the one about the Moore film. Enjoy yourselves. I'm usually real good about thinking before I post...but I got ahaed of myself.
[Message Edited]

Clueless. We will never know it all. There are just as many lies out there as truths. The "quotes" from lilstarfish (and I'm in NO way being critical of lilstarfish) sound like the underground conspiracy theories that we get a whiff of on occasion. Bottom line is we have to trust our President, our lives depend on it. We have to support our military, their lives depend on it. All I think is that, regardless of anything that is said by any party, Saddam and Hitler were just alike and we just can't stand and watch. Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

just as many children have to trust the molester they are left in care of...


before anyone go spastic I am not calling anyone in this or any administration a child molester.
but the fact remains that if you ask any parent who is not party to such an act will almost always claim at first "I never saw anything to give me the idea they would do such a thing, or, I could never imagine anyone would do this to a child". but in time they will admit there where in fact signs which they did see, but ignored or did not take into deep enough consideration.

it is how people get away with things...

and no one wants to admit being party, even an inactive one, to such a thing.

people do need to think, they need to listen, read, see and not only that they need to come to their own conslusions.


[Message Edited]

you're spinning so much bullshit, star, it just just isn't worth going one by one through it all to dispell the peices. believe everything you read, its up to you. i'll be sticking to my afore mentioned topics.. supporting something that can't be stopped, and will be worth it in the long run, anyway.

Citizen ToeJo:
You are forgiven
I know myself how easy it can be to say things one later
regret when speaking in anger.


MGiff:

The "quotes" from lilstarfish (and I'm in NO way being critical of lilstarfish) sound like the underground conspiracy theories that we get a whiff of on occasion.

No worries MGiff
I completely agree that some of the stuff is quite hard
to swallow. Hadn't it been necessary I would probably have
taken the comfortable path and "taken the blue pill"
to stay in my old belief of how "things are".

The only advice I can give is to pay attention to
what is going on and also do a little "research" if you
would find that some things "don't feel right" or "odd".

One of my current "heroes" is the 9/11 widow Ellen Mariani
who have been struggling to get the administration to
answer the flaws in the "official" version of what happened on 9/11.
9/11 widow speaks in Rockland
http://rockland.villagesoup.com/Community/Story.cfm?StoryID=22231
911 Victim’s Wife Files RICO Case Against GW Bush
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0311/S00261.htm
Widow's Bush Treason Suit Vanishes in Blink of Media Eye
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0312/S00040.htm
911forthetruth.com
http://www.911forthetruth.com/

DesignCaddy:

you're spinning so much bullshit, star, it just just isn't worth going one by one through it all to dispell the peices.

Well, if that is how you want to feel about it I guess I can't
do much about it. I'm just sorry you feel it's better to attack
ME than the issues which are quite real and very important.



[Message Edited]

Vote? Does anyone seriously believe your vote really matters? Yup...you run right out a vote. The world will be a better place...Not! I bet the powers that be get a real chuckle out of watching everyone scurrying around the voting booths. I'm surprised they don't have stalls set up with bails of hay waiting at the voting booths for everyone! In earlier times in the history of this country I might have believed voting mattered...but now?...give me a break.

And I certainly would NOT trust my life to anyone, let alone this government or this president we have. You are considered as nothing more than income to this government these days as well as expendable. If it would further their causes to level your house and make you disappear...consider yourself and it gone. I've had first hand dealings with this government and I can tell you from experience, your freedom exist until they decide otherwise. And you don't have to break any laws to discover this rude awakening.

The trouble with this country is to many people walking around blindly accepting what they tell you, while they lie right to your face.

I think they said it well in...[U.S. Supreme Court in American Communications Association v. Douds, 339 U.S. 382. 442] "It is NOT the function of our government to keep it's citizens from into error It IS the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error."

In other words...question everything you hear!

"To sit in silence when one should protest, makes cowards of men"
~Abraham Lincoln~

But hey! The government loves you and cares about you..really they do! And they are doing a fine job in Iraq! Why, I bet before long those Iraqis will have Mcdonald's, Burger King and Pizza Huts on every street corner. heck, bush gave them all those chemical weapons...why not fast food to go with it?




[Message Edited]

Its insane to compare hitler with saddam... last time I checked saddam didn't kill 6 MILLION PEOPLE!

I really don't care how you americans run your country but understand, that is YOUR country. America should stop acting like it is "the big mighty country that will fix it all". The people living in Iraq didn't ask for the war...

And again, the war was no good. Saying "yeah, but atleast saddam is away, inocent people died because of him" is another lame excuse.

In africa there are 11.000 children starving every day. Every day there die 11000 children because of hunger!!
I am not even a little bit better then you guys, I am not getting my lazy ass down there to do something about it, but while you americans are giving 167 billion dollar away just to simply 'free the country from saddam', you could also have used the money to help the childrens in africa....

This is just an example, but really, I don't care. I just can't stand people that are so certain about their opinion that they just will believe or dis-believe everything they hear...

Really, find someone who believes the earth is only 6000 years old and try to convince him, you will see how irritating it is.

But as I said, I don't care and I am not going to convince you of my opinion, simply because I can't. I am just here for the flame wars

No, I'm not a democrat or a republican. I'm just a guy who's tired of the bullshit. Am I the only one who has a problem with the fact that Bush has gone on record saying: "There ought to be limits to freedom"?

But okay, other question, who believes bush is indeed a good president? And while you are at it, give me some reasons why he is a good president...

Web gizmos: You should take more interest in your civic duty as an American citizen to understand the differences (and they are monumental differences) between the two party’s and vote. Showing interest in one of our greatest presidents is a good start, but I have to inform you that the quote you refer to wasn’t Lincolns. It is common to find quotes that Lincoln never said so research everything you see about him.



"To sin by silence, when they should protest, makes cowards of men."

Cited by Douglas Macarthur in a 1950 speech after his release as commander of the United Nations forces in Korea. It is actually from a poem by Ella Wheeler Wilcox.

Its insane to compare hitler with saddam... last time I checked saddam didn't kill 6 MILLION PEOPLE!

The death toll isn’t as high, but the brutality and methods are similar. Saddams death toll was higher than Milosevic’s but the left were comfortable labeling “the butcher of the Balkans” Hitler. And Clinton held a press conference in which he actually called Milosevic “Hitler.” It’s just intellectual dishonesty to deny the magnitude of the atrocity in Iraq, have you see n the pictures or the films?

In africa there are 11.000 children starving every day. Every day there die 11000 children because of hunger!!

Yes and the UN should be taking the lead role in stopping this tragedy. In a perfect world Kofi Anon and the corrupt disgraceful UN (who sat and watched genocide time and time again) would take the lead role in demanding that all the nations of the world contribute to the suffering in Africa. But just as they watched the slaughter of millions under their watchful eye in the past, they still have no invested interest in saving Africans. Don’t blame Bush, blame Kofi anon and his oil for Auschwitz programs.

Anthony, I am aware of the things saddam did however this war wasn't about saddam in the first place. This war was because saddam 'could attack with chemical weapons within 30 minutes'... yeah, right, was it just me or did the whole world miss something there?

Styl-X Design wonders how long it will take until someone starts to defend bush with "just because he talks slow dasn't mean he is stupid"

This war was because saddam 'could attack with chemical weapons within 30 minutes'

Styl: what am I going to do with you

If the curly haired intelligentsia lining coffee houses and internet cafes in Europe and Michael Moore didn’t think Hussein posed a chemical weapons threat, then that is ok with me and most Americans. I was for the removal of Hussein in 91, when he invaded Kuwait much in the way Hitler invaded Poland. All of this “no WMD” would be irrelevant then wouldn’t it? Saddam ended the march on Baghdad in 91 when he agreed to allow free and unfettered access for weapons inspectors, and when he expelled them in 98, it was grounds for an immediate resumption of hostility. And the intellectual elites of Europe complaining about "no WMD" are the ancestors of those who just sat around as a whole continent blackened with Nazism and fascism.
[Message Edited]

Even Clinton can be quoted as stating that Saddam has/had WMD's. With their underground background, there can be things buried in Iraq that won't be unearthed until the Second Coming.

And the intellectual elites of Europe complaining about "no WMD" are the ancestors of those who just sat around as a whole continent blackened with Nazism and fascism.

I hope you do not mean me by that... if so I am getting a little bit of pissed off.

What happend in WO II was the elimination of 6 million people, it can not be compared to saddam.
Hitler got his power by a 'legal way'. It was the people of germany who you can blaim this on.
Instead of saying that we were just sitting around, you can better tell the truth.

Please help me remember:

Who was it that allowed germany to invade "the reinlanden" witch was a de-militarised zone after WO I?
- answer: England and the US

Who made the 'versaille' rules that caused anger in whole germany?
- answer: England and the US

Who did nothing when germany invaded tjechie?
- answere: England and the US (and france...)


All the time they were the one saying "yeah, but if you do anything more we will declare war... they only did that when hitler invaded poland, and even then, they didn't do ****.

And what are you talking about nazism and fascism?

That isn't why the war was started in the first place. That are hitlers ideas but the people of germany felt like they were blaimed for WO I in a way that wasn't acceptable. The whole versaille thing is what caused WO II.
I don't know if you know your history but this is what happend:

Germany had to pay all the damage done in WO I.
They got money from the states but when the economie of the US crashed in 1929-1930 the US wanted their money back.
This caused that a lot of germans lost their job, home, car, etc.
Then hitler came on stage, he told every one he could make germany better, bigger etc. That isn't too hard to believe if you want to believe it...

As I said, the contract of versaille is what caused WO II, not the people who just sat arround.


For the WMD, the inspectors were already back in Iraq when bush declared war.

Bush couldn't lose his face by getting his troops back.
I am tired of the people defending bush and the war. His dad should have finished the job when he was there but he didn't! there is no single reason in the universe why bush junior had the right to invade Iraq.

This is what, why don't we run a poll on wc:

What do you think about the war in Iraq:

- I live in america and I believe its a good thing,
- I do not live in america and I believe its a good thing
- I live in america and believe its a bad thing
- I do not live in america and I believe its a bad thing
- What war in iraq?

But a simple question:

Did they find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?

Here's an interesting question:

Why did daddy Bush(then VP) and the other shady people in the
Reagan administration(Rumsfeld etc.) allow the selling of the
chemical crap to Iraq's army back then if they didn't want
them use it??

I don’t wish to be offensive styl, if I was I apologize.

From What I understand about Versailles, the big four came to that conclusion that Germany was responsible for WWI and Germany signed off on it. They agreed to accept “war guilt” for the entire war and agreed to pay compensation. The Germans lost the war big time, and they were in no position to bargain. The big four was really the big two. Italy and the US really didn’t do much. Woodrow Wilson was not a major player the whole thing was for the most part, arranged by Britain and France, who both collectively beat the heck out of Germany, especially after the British developed an armored vehicle.

The British tank was the breakthrough in the bloody stalemate of trench warfare it plowed through the German ranks crushing everything in its wake. And even though the Germans were successful on their eastern front, they lost it all on the Western front. After Bismarck’s three Prussian wars, and after the Kaiser issued a blank check giving authority to Austria to attack Serbia, the major European powers were fed up. They blamed German militarism for the bloody conflicts. The Kaiser made a mistake in that he didn’t predict Russia coming to protect their Slavic brothers. An avalanche of wider war followed the Austrian attack on Serbia, in which Germany would later take the blame.

What emerged from WWI was a lot of young future generals with a lot of war experience, which would later set the stage for the creation of a fearsome military, the Wehrmacht (armed forces). That model of German militarism set the standard for every nation’s army to this very day.

I had many reasons why I approved of the Iraq war, not just WMD. And stocks of weapons may still exist, Zarqawi and Batthist Generals still exist, why not WMD? The one Sarin shell they did find was capable of killing hundreds of people, there is probably more of it. Saddam has funded enemies of America and Israel.

An unlikely ally to President Bush has just bolstered the evidence on the threat Saddam posed. Russian president Vladimir Putin said that Russia knew Saddam Hussein had planned terror attacks on U.S. soil and had warned Washington. Putin said Russian intelligence had been told on several occasions that “Saddam's Special Forces were preparing to attack U.S. targets inside and outside the United States.” The only open ended question is this, who exactly was Saddams “special forces.”

no, star, i attack the arguement as assanine not you personally. i bailed on it so i wouldn't have to hate you later

i bailed on it so i wouldn't have to hate you later

Ahh, hehe, how thoughtful of you =D

i attack the arguement as assanine not you personally

Well, if you had bothered to check the facts you would see that
everything is quite true, even if it makes you mad at me for telling
about it.

Also, since people started to bring up similarities with
WWII Germany and now, this article about the aniversary
shows that the similarities are even greater.

Sometimes it seems that history repeats itself.

When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Democracy_America/WhenDemocracyFailed.html