Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

Tuesday, December 9, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk

A large percentage of you who read this are already WinCustomize premium subscribers. You've already done your part to help this site keep going.

But I must say, things are grim this holiday season here. 2 expensive servers are down. We must get 2 new servers in here. We need to get another 2 servers on top of that for redundancy but that can wait a bit. But it's depressing knowing that millions visit this site each month and we've only gotten 156 new subscribers since the subscription drive began. It definitely makes a strong case that perhaps the days of free skins are over. That the skin authors and web masters, who pull their weight, should move towards a more commercial model that benefits primarily those who contribute (skinners, subscribers, and developers). 

My friend Scott (Jark) has much the same problems over at deviantART: http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/

That is, the problem of having massive MASSIVE traffic but only a tiny fraction of those users paying the bill. Many people think, incorrectly, that massive traffic == money. It doesn't.

I can tell you, those of you who have purchased premium subscriptions here have helped the community in ways that the average user can't possibly fathom.  Premium subscribers combined with the volunteer efforts of this site's administrators (Jafo, Boxxi, DavidK, Treetog, Alexandrie, Kaosati, MikeB, Hippy, and others) are what keep things going.

Without the premium subscriptions, I can tell you right now what would happen.  This site would slowly morph into being a purely Stardock oriented site with bandwidth caps for all users (including Object Desktop users - though theirs would be higher). Support for non-Stardock sections would slowly disappear or be restricted to subscribers only.  The wallpaper section would only be available to those who either have a wallpaper on there that got accepted or subscribers (in all these exaples, anyone with apprentice access or higher would be treated as a subscriber).

There would be banner ads, and things would become vastly more commercial. Instead of a free Christmas suite, it would be a $8 Christmas suite. Instead of free skins, a new system would b eput in place to allow authors to sell their skins as part of te library once they had achieved a certain access level. One-click purchasing by users with the skin authors getting a percent.

That is the commercialized future of skinning. The alternative. It's not necessarily dark and evil. But it is a much different world than what we have now. I suspect many skin authors out there would jump at the chance of being able to get paid for their skins.

I've posted for years that our community is made up of 3 co-equal groups: The skinners, the web masters, and the users.  We webmasters are doing everythign we can.  The skinners have done their part.  The users have to do their part as a collective.  Which means of the 75,000 unique visitors this site gets each day, 500 more of them need to contribute back too.  As the alternative to voluntarily helping will be paying bits and pieces here and there for skins and themes.  The alternative is a smaller community, a more commercialized community but a sustainable one too.

Personally, I hope some balance can be found. While some people think we represent the commercialization of skinning, in reality, we don't. We simply want...must find a sustainable model that allows our community to grow.  We have all seen the instability Deskmod, Skinz.org, and even Customize.org have faced.  The site has grown beyond what Stardock can pay for via Object Desktop sales.  While Stardock's revenue has grown, the traffic to this site has DOUBLED this year.

Like I said, a large percentage of you have already done your part. There's nothing more you can do.  But hopefully, the millions of people who come to this site will have some infintesible number of them that recognize that someone has to pay for all this stuff. 

The end of the year may end up being the end of this site as we know it. Those new machines will be purchased one way or the other. But if Stardock ends up having to pay for any of those two new machines, it's going to come with strings attached. Ones that will certainly benefit subscribers but the casual users of the world will probably not like.

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WOM
Reply #421 Tuesday, December 16, 2003 11:15 PM
Who know paxx. I haven't even downloaded the ones that are available as a subscriber. Didn't like them. How many would I like of the ones that would be in your 50 to a 100 I wouldn't know. So who's to say that would be a benifit! I did it to just help out.So thats $40 for the wife and I. So whats that now going to cost?



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Keith Perry
Reply #422 Tuesday, December 16, 2003 11:22 PM
Make It Subscription ONLY, Without all the non-subscribers, you won't need as much to run the site.

If over 2 million have been to the site, apparently they know what they'd be missing.


Lose the freeloaders



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WOM
Reply #423 Tuesday, December 16, 2003 11:41 PM
Hum, 50 to 100 skins for subscribers? Who is going to make them? I don't think 1 person could do that many in a year. So that means paying a number of people to make them. If WC has to do that, we might as well go to all premium skins and buy the ones you really want.That way the subscription price can be nominal and the site can still get its take off the skins.



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bakerstreet
Reply #424 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:40 AM
Meyend Tripp: Sure. Your local mall should do that too, just run up to people and say "Hey, buy something or get out, dammit!!!". Would make the place infinitely less expensive to run.

Instead, why not limit the wear and tear the freeloaders can do, and keep them here so you can influence them to subscribe? This drive is well-targeted and seems to be working. The emphasis should be on crowding more people onto that target by getting them registered and on their way to their 50 meg limit.

Villainizing them or imposing pr0n-site style annoyances will just drive them away. Less waste, more *quality* content. That doesn't mean paying skinners, either. As I said on the previous 'Mac user' thread, you can't have a thriving hobby where the hobbyist has to be paid for their work, and you can't run this site on solely for-hire skinners.

Frogboy could afford to pay me for my best work, but he wouldn't want to. I'd much rather give it away than establish some ridiculously low-end scale for all the work talented artists do here.


[Message Edited]
Leo the Lion
Reply #425 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:42 AM
At this juncture in this debate i would just like to say one thing and that is everyone who has joined in on this thread has done so because they CARE.....Some of us have different ideas on the way forward but the bottom line is we all deeply CARE about this place and we are ALL united in the determination that Wincustomize will be better and stronger as a result of whatever solution is decided upon. If i were in Brads and all the Mods and Wizops shoes i would most probably have quite a headache by now but i would also be quietly pleased that all you people feel very strongly about your beloved Wincustomize
kona0197
Reply #426 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:47 AM
Question: You all keep mention the 700,000 members we have. Just how many do you think are still here? 5000? 10,000?

The point is many are no longer here.
EventHorizon
Reply #427 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:50 AM
for-hire skinners


The skinner would be getting a small percentage (10-20%) of the money generated from the customer buying the skin, while the rest would go to Stardock...
bakerstreet
Reply #428 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 1:03 AM
There are problems with for-hire skins. What will the agreement be? Obviously I couldn't take a skin that is for sale here and upload it to deviantart, but how much further would you have to take that? What would you do to enforce that? The skin won't, for all intents and purposes, completly belong to the skinner any more will it? If not, what rights would we retain?

I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but it would certainly expand the definition of 'wares'. Will it continue to be permissible to include other people's DesktopX objects when some are 'for sale', and how hard will that be to police? The scripting behind the for-sale objects could be ripped out and re-applied, even by the original author. If some stuff is WC's because of exclusivity agreements, even Jafo's 'screenshot obstruction' rule would then have to bleed over to other sites, wouldn't it?

Impossible, no; hairy, yes. I think it would certainly have a 'breaking-in' period that would strain some nerves.

**

P.S...

I mentioned that some of us that can't afford to buy multiple subscriptions might be willing to donate skins and themes for subscriber content. Has there been any talk of that? Such a thing really wouldn't require any new infrastructure would it?


[Message Edited]
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #429 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 2:57 AM
one must admit that you don't really get a whole lot out of a subscription


Not true. I contribute to the site, that's what I get out of it.
paxx
Reply #430 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 6:39 AM

Fuzzy, for the 100 or so die-hard fans of the site like you, me and some other others, that's good enough, but if we want the site to generate 500 new subscription every month, we're going to have to think of more incentive than that.

eieio
Reply #431 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 7:26 AM
I mentioned that some of us that can't afford to buy multiple subscriptions might be willing to donate skins and themes for subscriber content. Has there been any talk of that?


I suggested that very thing in an earlier post, BakerStreet. No pay for the skin. Just 'donated' to WC for the purpose of being given out to subscribers. My thinking is that it would be a privilege or 'feather in the hat' to have a skin chosen for premium content. Maybe more of a honor than a high rating.



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Kevin_C
Reply #432 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 7:52 AM
Just a comment on some suggestions I've seen made more than once and it concerns me a bit. People keep saying no membership without "valid ISP" e-mail address. My question is how are you going to determine what is a "valid" ISP e-mail? I happen to have SBC Yahoo DSL which means that my main e-mail address is an @yahoo.com address but it really works just like any other ISP address. If there were to be some filters put in place to keep people from using @yahoo or @hotmail addresses then that would catch people like me. So, there needs to be more thought put into it than just trying to block the free e-mail services.

I know that Stardock would have the foresight to not do something like this but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Leo the Lion
Reply #433 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 8:21 AM
if we want the site to generate 500 new subscription every month, we're going to have to think of more incentive than that.


Paxx........and that is why we should do away with WC subscription and build it into the payment you make to Stardock when you purchase or renew your software
Leo the Lion
Reply #434 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 8:30 AM
Your local mall should do that too, just run up to people and say "Hey, buy something or get out, dammit!!!".


Yes, BakerStreet but your local Mall does not let people just simply wander in and STEAL the goods and as you leave say "Feel free help yourself and come back tommorrow for some more if you like".
feline
Reply #435 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 9:04 AM
Leo the Lion - and that is why we should do away with WC subscription and build it into the payment you make to Stardock when you purchase or renew your software


which brings us back to the point i made earlier. you are then "making" the people who buy Stardock programs support Light-step, beatnik, windows media player, and the free programs also.

when put this way, this doesn't sound so good / appealing.

for me, there are two points here:
a) the target of 500 subscriptions for this month includes the x subscriptions the site would have got without the drive

what do you really get in exchange for your subscription?


(a), from the figures i am seeing quoted x is very small

(, if you simply want to get access to more downloads then the cheapest solution is to buy one Stardock program. short of locking out Stardock customers to some degree (probably unlikely) what do you really get for your subscription?

i have a subscription, i have had one for ages. why? it wasn't because i could download lots with it. i download very little these days. most skins simply don't really appeal to me.

the two premium skins? the idea sounded interesting, but as expected they turned out to hold no interest for me.

the skin browser? interesting idea, but i have never really used this. i find looking through the libraries in IE to be as easy.

the real interest for me was the skin browsers improved interface to the message board, and helping to support a site i really like.

as it turned out, using the skin browser to interact with the message board never really worked for me, so the only thing i got out of this was helping to support the site.

so, what does a subscription really offer to the regular visitors who don't already have one?

the news article on the front page said there would be additional advantages to having a subscription, but didn't say what they would be.

feline realises i am starting to argue in a circle here

i strongly feel we need both a carrot and a stick here. suggestions for the stick are numerous however, where is the carrot? apart from getting various restrictions lifted, what does anyone really gain from getting a subscription?

also saying "we will add some things for subscribers later" isn't much of a carrot. what sort of things? when? will they be of use to most subscribers? i haven't noticed much interest in the text adds from subscribers *sigh*

it is so easy to see the problems, but much harder to suggest sensible solutions.

personally, i would like to see a more powerful website for subscribers. i visit DA once in a blue moon (or perhaps less ) but the website there seems a lot more powerful and full of features.

many discussion boards offer a load of features for the people active there.

of course, anything like this will take time and resources to produce, so it is no instant magic fix. at least if we had some idea of what subscribers will get, and when, we could try and draw some attention to this carrot.

feline *sigh*

personally, i suspect something is going to have to give over the next few months even presuming we get the 500 subscribers. the level of interaction / activity by 99.999% of the people seems to be zero outside of passively downloading.



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WOM
Reply #436 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 9:37 AM
I have to side with feline on most accounts.

I use the SkinBrowser for the messageboard and to check out the libraries on WC. I find it a great tool.

The premium skins haven't excited me and probably wouldn't even if there were more.

I'am in that small percentage that support the site because I like the site and want to help. But as I will be retiring in 1 year, I don't want to be priced out as money will be tighter.

One concern I have is that all the Stardock programs are in the wifes account, which leaves ne out in the cold, even though I paid for them.

Oh well, enough for now.



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paxx
Reply #437 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 9:52 AM
WOM, the current premium skins and the ones that we would be boud to have are very different. Currently, they are few, and I admit often lesser in quality than the best skins available for free from the best authors.  But now, if those same best authors instead of offering them for free to everyone from now on made them availble only to subscribers? If all the skins from Adni, Pixtudio, Mormegil, etc were stricly availble if you purchased a subscription, would one not feel compelled to subscribe?
WOM
Reply #438 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 10:16 AM
paxx, quite possably, except some of those authors upload to other sites.Adni for one. WC would have to get those authors to upload exclusively to this site. Not sure than could be done. Some yes, alot probably not unless some type of incentive were reached with them. My main concern is that the burdon not be placed on the few hard core supporters.



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Doreen
Reply #439 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 10:23 AM
what will happen when greed sets in is the better skinners will upload exclusively here and stop up'ing everywhere else which will hurt the other sites (for ppl who speak concern of community one min and then take action only to worry about themselves exclusively "that" is hypocritical)

Doreen thinks the word community should be left out then???
paxx
Reply #440 Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:18 AM
Doreen, do Pixtudio upload for free at other sites the suites they sell on their own web site?
If skinners wish to try to make money from their skins, Wincustomize may offer them a convenient way to do so. They could still (Pixtudio and others do) offer some free skins for all on many sites, but they may (as Pixtudio and others do) choose not to give away for free some of their better work. Not much different than what already exists, except the possibility is going to be there for more people.

WOM: the incentive for Adni and others will be their wish to make money from their work or not.  They may continue to publish some of their work on others ites, and choose to offer some exclusively to WC subscribers in order to make a bit of money.

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