Are Mac users better skinners?
Saturday, November 15, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Anyone who's been watching TechTV's The Screen Savers lately has seen Konfabulator. A MacOS program that is the equivalent of the DesktopX object feature. You can think of Konfabulator as being the closest thing to DesktopX on the Mac.
But whether it is Konfabulator or Kaleidoscope before it or even some of the other Mac skinning programs, as well as the icons, there has been an ongoing debate, over the years, over who is better at skinning. Mac users or PC users?
On the PC side, programs like WindowBlinds, DesktopX, ObjectBar, Sysmetrix, Hoverdesk, and many others have more sophisticated features that allow technically adapt PC users to create a lot of interesting things. On the Mac side, while a much smaller market contains a lot of graphics designers and artists.
Anyone that's been on one of the mailing lists for the Mac skinning programs knows that Mac users are pretty convinced that they're a lot better at skinning (and are convinced that PC users are a bunch of rippers -- a charge, that while over generalized, we all have seen how little respect some people have for the rights of skinners).
So now Konfabulator is coming out for Windows. My view is, if Konfabulator becomes more popular somehow than DesktopX then we're a bunch of losers who deserve to be on the ash heap of history. With a 2 year head start and a lot more features (and DesktopX is cheaper!) the only way I can see DesktopX losing is through either a) Stardock sucking at development or 
Stardock sucking at marketing or c) Our community unable to compete with the Mac community's skinning prowess.
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Phar0e
Reply #62 Monday, November 17, 2003 11:58 PM
Reply #62 Monday, November 17, 2003 11:58 PM
Macs still have a huge presence in the printing industry (in north Amwerica at least).
Photoshop, Illustrator, and Quark Express (indesign and pagemaker to a lesser extent) are the program staples and although they all have PC versions, such a history has been built up in terms of training and usage; it's easier for many to keep the status quo rather than jump over to the pc platform.
As well, so many graphic houses work on macs, that when it comes to receiving files from other companies, you want to be giving mac files and recieving mac files. Despite the claims, not all files built in those major programs tranfer across platforms intact.
So there are large hurdles to be stradled before macs loose one of thier original bases of use and support.
Photoshop, Illustrator, and Quark Express (indesign and pagemaker to a lesser extent) are the program staples and although they all have PC versions, such a history has been built up in terms of training and usage; it's easier for many to keep the status quo rather than jump over to the pc platform.
As well, so many graphic houses work on macs, that when it comes to receiving files from other companies, you want to be giving mac files and recieving mac files. Despite the claims, not all files built in those major programs tranfer across platforms intact.
So there are large hurdles to be stradled before macs loose one of thier original bases of use and support.
bakerstreet
Reply #64 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 1:35 AM
http://www.macaquarium.com/imacaquarium.htm
Reply #64 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 1:35 AM
http://www.macaquarium.com/imacaquarium.htm
Tech-Cat
Reply #65 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:02 AM
I've heard of making aquariums out of old TVs before.
Reply #65 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:02 AM
I've heard of making aquariums out of old TVs before.
kona0197
Reply #66 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:13 AM
Reply #66 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:13 AM
hi jesse! I was just about to start a thread to ask where you are!
SoliD_NuTs
Reply #67 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:28 AM
Reply #67 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:28 AM
well i agree with hippy's comment saying that more pro use mac. for example the icons that are made for mac on this website are way better then the ones here IP
Tech-Cat
Reply #68 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:29 AM
Reply #68 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:29 AM
I just haven't posted as much here since I do visit other sites and I have been busy experimenting with making BootSkins and playing Nintendo 64.
moshi
Reply #69 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 7:11 AM
Reply #69 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 7:11 AM
Frogboy: while i am perfectly happy with Rainmeter and should not really give anybody advice on business tactics i think it would be pretty easy for Arlo Rose to ask skinners if they would allow him to repackage widgets for the other platform. this way widgets could also be tested on both platforms before they get uploaded to the website. why are you permanently thinking about DMG files btw? SIT files will work just as nice and can created with drag and drop in Windows.
i just downloaded a cpu-monitoring widget and had a look at it. unlike DesktopX objects, Konfabulator widgets seem not to come with binaries, that´s a big difference (btw: i hope every DesktopX skinner has a fat NO WARRANTIES license included in what he distributes
). so it´s just about interpreting that XML file. i´m pretty sure the Windows konfabulator.exe will be able to get data from perfmon.
i just downloaded a cpu-monitoring widget and had a look at it. unlike DesktopX objects, Konfabulator widgets seem not to come with binaries, that´s a big difference (btw: i hope every DesktopX skinner has a fat NO WARRANTIES license included in what he distributes
). so it´s just about interpreting that XML file. i´m pretty sure the Windows konfabulator.exe will be able to get data from perfmon.
IPlural
Reply #70 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 8:08 AM
Reply #70 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 8:08 AM
moshi, don't you think throwing a standard common sense *no warranty* clause around like it is something only DesktopX developers should use is a bit off?
Your assuming a lot here don't you think? iTunes was going to kill Winamp and Media player from what some claimed. As soon as it hit the PC it was going to just blaze through the net onto every desktop and people would see what is so great about MAC software. Well it's a freaking hog, a big fat, hairy hog that was on my drive for two days and then in the bit bucket with a blink of an eye. It ate resources, it not only ate them, it horded resources like a hog in a trough, pilling ram up for it's own use and slowly eating more and more of that which it did not have in reserve.
Konfabulator *MIGHT* work ok on a PC it *MIGHT* work outstanding on a PC and it *MIGHT* be the big brother to that HOG iTunes for Windows...
MIGHT seems like something I would hold reservations from backing so strongly, lots of looser out at the track that put everything on a horse or dog that *MIGHT* have won but didn't, more than enough for me to attempt playing around being one over a piece of software that *MIGHT* actually stick around on my drive longer than two days...
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[Message Edited]
Your assuming a lot here don't you think? iTunes was going to kill Winamp and Media player from what some claimed. As soon as it hit the PC it was going to just blaze through the net onto every desktop and people would see what is so great about MAC software. Well it's a freaking hog, a big fat, hairy hog that was on my drive for two days and then in the bit bucket with a blink of an eye. It ate resources, it not only ate them, it horded resources like a hog in a trough, pilling ram up for it's own use and slowly eating more and more of that which it did not have in reserve.
Konfabulator *MIGHT* work ok on a PC it *MIGHT* work outstanding on a PC and it *MIGHT* be the big brother to that HOG iTunes for Windows...
MIGHT seems like something I would hold reservations from backing so strongly, lots of looser out at the track that put everything on a horse or dog that *MIGHT* have won but didn't, more than enough for me to attempt playing around being one over a piece of software that *MIGHT* actually stick around on my drive longer than two days...
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joetheblow
Reply #71 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 9:02 AM
Reply #71 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 9:02 AM
Positive community reinforcement:
Xav73
Good example of that. He got very negative reviews but got some community help and positive reinforcement as well.
Now he make far better skins than before.
Skinning commercially is going to happen, particularly since the programs that get skinned are better and more stable and as the word gets out.
The question is how will the acknowledgeable in the community will handle it.
Will there be people who will do commercial skins AND free skins too? Will we start feeling that the only reason to help others or do this is to make money? Will we withhold information so the 'competition' doesn't get it?
I think artist should have the opportunity to get paid for their work, but also have an understanding of where they came from and got support from: The free community of skinners.
Xav73
Good example of that. He got very negative reviews but got some community help and positive reinforcement as well.
Now he make far better skins than before.
Skinning commercially is going to happen, particularly since the programs that get skinned are better and more stable and as the word gets out.
The question is how will the acknowledgeable in the community will handle it.
Will there be people who will do commercial skins AND free skins too? Will we start feeling that the only reason to help others or do this is to make money? Will we withhold information so the 'competition' doesn't get it?
I think artist should have the opportunity to get paid for their work, but also have an understanding of where they came from and got support from: The free community of skinners.
Frogboy
Reply #72 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 12:20 PM
Reply #72 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 12:20 PM
Moshi,
People CAN extend their objects with their own DLLs. But they don't need to. I can make a CPU meter object right now in less than 10 seconds and it's 17K, no DLLs.
https://www.joeuser.com/brad/lamemeter.dxpack
99% of DX objects have no binaries. They use either XML or INI inside. Having the capability to extend ones objects themselves with new functionality is something I conider to be an advantage. I've been a Konfabulator user from day 1 and have hung out on the forums there and there has been a big demand for widget makers to be able to extend the capabilities of Konfabulator themselves. DesktopX allows this. Konfabulator doesn't. If Arlo doesn't think of a given feature, it ain't going to happen. There is no Brazen Weep of the Konfabulator world because Konfabulator doesn't allow people like him to do what he does.
On the other topic, I totally agree with you that Arlo could ask his widget makers to let him convert the various .dmg files (most of the widgets are .dmg btw, not .sit) to .zip or whatever. But it would be a manual process. You cannot convert a .dmg to a .zip. .sit, on the other hand could be.
All of which is beside the point. Konfabulator MAY be the greatest thing since sliced bread. But what bugs me is the general belief that anything on the Mac must be great and when it's ported over it is a gift to us poor Windows users. iTunes is a 40MB pig. If anyone other than Apple had made it, it would have been a foot note. But because it came from the Mac, it gets a free marketing ride.
From a technological perspective, Samurize is superior to Konfabulator. And it's free. SysMetrix too. But do these programs get all the hype? No. Even though both Samurize and SysMetrix can do anything Konfabulator does, they don't get mentioned on TechTV. In fact, TechTV said there is no PC equivalent to Konfabulator when in fact there are SEVERAL. The two I mentioned, several other programs, and DesktopX which has many many features beyond Konfabulator.
People CAN extend their objects with their own DLLs. But they don't need to. I can make a CPU meter object right now in less than 10 seconds and it's 17K, no DLLs.
https://www.joeuser.com/brad/lamemeter.dxpack
99% of DX objects have no binaries. They use either XML or INI inside. Having the capability to extend ones objects themselves with new functionality is something I conider to be an advantage. I've been a Konfabulator user from day 1 and have hung out on the forums there and there has been a big demand for widget makers to be able to extend the capabilities of Konfabulator themselves. DesktopX allows this. Konfabulator doesn't. If Arlo doesn't think of a given feature, it ain't going to happen. There is no Brazen Weep of the Konfabulator world because Konfabulator doesn't allow people like him to do what he does.
On the other topic, I totally agree with you that Arlo could ask his widget makers to let him convert the various .dmg files (most of the widgets are .dmg btw, not .sit) to .zip or whatever. But it would be a manual process. You cannot convert a .dmg to a .zip. .sit, on the other hand could be.
All of which is beside the point. Konfabulator MAY be the greatest thing since sliced bread. But what bugs me is the general belief that anything on the Mac must be great and when it's ported over it is a gift to us poor Windows users. iTunes is a 40MB pig. If anyone other than Apple had made it, it would have been a foot note. But because it came from the Mac, it gets a free marketing ride.
From a technological perspective, Samurize is superior to Konfabulator. And it's free. SysMetrix too. But do these programs get all the hype? No. Even though both Samurize and SysMetrix can do anything Konfabulator does, they don't get mentioned on TechTV. In fact, TechTV said there is no PC equivalent to Konfabulator when in fact there are SEVERAL. The two I mentioned, several other programs, and DesktopX which has many many features beyond Konfabulator.
craeonics
Reply #73 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:40 PM
Reply #73 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:40 PM
Commercial skinning has been going on for a long time now, joe. See Pixtudio, TheSkinsFactory and SkinPlant for example.
MarkMcQ
Reply #74 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:52 PM
Reply #74 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:52 PM
| Will there be people who will do commercial skins AND free skins too? |
On behalf of myself and Mike, I'd just like to say *ahem*......
Frogboy
Reply #76 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 7:15 PM
Reply #76 Tuesday, November 18, 2003 7:15 PM
Both SkinPlant and Pixtudio release a good chunk of the really good skins out there.
bakerstreet
Reply #77 Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:08 PM
Reply #77 Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:08 PM
I think we would all be happy with that, but one doesn't have to make a living from what is otherwise a hobby. As I cited previously, there are many very technical, very expensive hobbies that never turn into a career. I think it is great that skinning can be commercial, and I wish everyone who wishes to make it a career has great luck with it. I don't think it is healthy to *expect* it to, though, nor do I think we should feel wronged if we produce excellent work for its own sake.
Doomgaze
Reply #78 Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:40 PM
a: photoshop dosen't run on linux.
b: Disney/Pixar use a mix of Windows and Mac machines for raw graphics work.
c: the only use of linux is for the rendering farms (renderman runs on linux now, cheaper than running a farm of G5's certainly)
"Hollywood" uses a large amount of PCs running windows now for fx work.
with close to a majority still doing post production on the mac with final cut pro.
Reply #78 Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:40 PM
| I think the days of Mac being the accepted standard in Graphics Design are sweeping quickly by. Disney is running Photoshop on Linux, as is a lot of Hollywood with their other special effects apps. |
a: photoshop dosen't run on linux.
b: Disney/Pixar use a mix of Windows and Mac machines for raw graphics work.
c: the only use of linux is for the rendering farms (renderman runs on linux now, cheaper than running a farm of G5's certainly)
"Hollywood" uses a large amount of PCs running windows now for fx work.
with close to a majority still doing post production on the mac with final cut pro.
Evil Genius27
Reply #79 Wednesday, November 19, 2003 8:51 PM
Reply #79 Wednesday, November 19, 2003 8:51 PM
mac will always be second to PC's, why do you think PC's are more popular, not because they're cheaper. You can go out and get OSX for way cheaper than XP but people still go for XP because it's better, WIndows looks better by default anyway so maybe thats why skinning is so popular on mac and I'd say there are more PC skins for mac than mac skins for PC.
bakerstreet
Reply #80 Wednesday, November 19, 2003 9:20 PM
Reply #80 Wednesday, November 19, 2003 9:20 PM
Doomgaze: Thanks, but http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1210083,00.asp I'd be happy to see any resource material you have to the contrary. In leiu of that I'll go on what I already have.
"Disney needed support for leading commercial animation and special effects applications such as Maya, from Alias Systems (a division of SGI); Side Effects Software Inc.'s Houdini; and Pixar Animation Studios' RenderMan. When those applications were ported to Linux in 2001, Disney deployed Red Hat Linux 7.2 on more than 600 desktops. All the desktops run CodeWeavers Inc.'s CrossOver Office 2.0.1, which enables non-Linux applications to run on Linux.
Brooks and his team also moved all their GUIs to Qt, a multiplatform kit from Trolltech Inc., and ported more than 4 million lines of code to Linux.
"It was a pretty daunting proposition because we use a large number of third-party software packages as well as internally developed software," Brooks said. "But we came to the conclusion that the right solution was going to be Linux, and we've been pleased with the results."
By 2002, Disney had standardized its digital animation platform on Linux running on Hewlett-Packard Co. hardware. The company also uses Mac OS X, Solaris and Windows operating systems in its computing environment."
Slashdot also had a blurb on it here: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/08/05/1552255&mode=thread&tid=106&tid=185
Again, I would be open to any dissenting material.
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"Disney needed support for leading commercial animation and special effects applications such as Maya, from Alias Systems (a division of SGI); Side Effects Software Inc.'s Houdini; and Pixar Animation Studios' RenderMan. When those applications were ported to Linux in 2001, Disney deployed Red Hat Linux 7.2 on more than 600 desktops. All the desktops run CodeWeavers Inc.'s CrossOver Office 2.0.1, which enables non-Linux applications to run on Linux.
Brooks and his team also moved all their GUIs to Qt, a multiplatform kit from Trolltech Inc., and ported more than 4 million lines of code to Linux.
"It was a pretty daunting proposition because we use a large number of third-party software packages as well as internally developed software," Brooks said. "But we came to the conclusion that the right solution was going to be Linux, and we've been pleased with the results."
By 2002, Disney had standardized its digital animation platform on Linux running on Hewlett-Packard Co. hardware. The company also uses Mac OS X, Solaris and Windows operating systems in its computing environment."
Slashdot also had a blurb on it here: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/08/05/1552255&mode=thread&tid=106&tid=185
Again, I would be open to any dissenting material.
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Reply #61 Monday, November 17, 2003 4:07 PM
With their slim wedge of the market, there just aren't as many resources available to make it a 'standard'.
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