Are Mac users better skinners?
Saturday, November 15, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Anyone who's been watching TechTV's The Screen Savers lately has seen Konfabulator. A MacOS program that is the equivalent of the DesktopX object feature. You can think of Konfabulator as being the closest thing to DesktopX on the Mac.
But whether it is Konfabulator or Kaleidoscope before it or even some of the other Mac skinning programs, as well as the icons, there has been an ongoing debate, over the years, over who is better at skinning. Mac users or PC users?
On the PC side, programs like WindowBlinds, DesktopX, ObjectBar, Sysmetrix, Hoverdesk, and many others have more sophisticated features that allow technically adapt PC users to create a lot of interesting things. On the Mac side, while a much smaller market contains a lot of graphics designers and artists.
Anyone that's been on one of the mailing lists for the Mac skinning programs knows that Mac users are pretty convinced that they're a lot better at skinning (and are convinced that PC users are a bunch of rippers -- a charge, that while over generalized, we all have seen how little respect some people have for the rights of skinners).
So now Konfabulator is coming out for Windows. My view is, if Konfabulator becomes more popular somehow than DesktopX then we're a bunch of losers who deserve to be on the ash heap of history. With a 2 year head start and a lot more features (and DesktopX is cheaper!) the only way I can see DesktopX losing is through either a) Stardock sucking at development or 
Stardock sucking at marketing or c) Our community unable to compete with the Mac community's skinning prowess.
 |
|
Page 2 of 5 | |
|
|---|
Phar0e
Reply #22 Saturday, November 15, 2003 1:15 PM
Reply #22 Saturday, November 15, 2003 1:15 PM
er, Frogboys implied question being: which skinning direction will flourish.
mormegil
Reply #23 Saturday, November 15, 2003 1:21 PM
Reply #23 Saturday, November 15, 2003 1:21 PM
I have to say that when I was using my mac, My wife has it now. That I did not find that the skinning, at least the themes, were few and far betweeen. I can think of about 3 skins that I liked, and the rest were about average. As far as Konfabualter goes, there are some nice objects, but if you look past the first few pages in the widget gallery there is a pritty high count of week, to crappy stuff.
As a person who has had to do design on both I have to say, that the biggest problem with the Windows side of skinning is that there are ALOT more people doing it. And there for there is more bad stuff vissable, simple math says that the more people doing it the lower the average is going to be. I for one will take a Treetog or a MikeB over any of the skinners I have seen in the Mac world.
As a person who has had to do design on both I have to say, that the biggest problem with the Windows side of skinning is that there are ALOT more people doing it. And there for there is more bad stuff vissable, simple math says that the more people doing it the lower the average is going to be. I for one will take a Treetog or a MikeB over any of the skinners I have seen in the Mac world.
Frogboy
Reply #24 Saturday, November 15, 2003 1:23 PM
Reply #24 Saturday, November 15, 2003 1:23 PM
Bakerstreet, you've gotta get a blog going on JoeUser. That was an excellent post. I'm not sure how much I agree with it (have to think about it more) but it's really thought provoking.
bakerstreet
Reply #25 Saturday, November 15, 2003 1:42 PM
Reply #25 Saturday, November 15, 2003 1:42 PM
Frogboy: yup, thanks. I registered there a couple of weeks ago. I've been playing with DesktopX 2 in my spare time and haven't done much with it. I'll look in again soon.
[Message Edited]
[Message Edited]
kona0197
Reply #26 Saturday, November 15, 2003 5:54 PM
Reply #26 Saturday, November 15, 2003 5:54 PM
I do not see why the mac people think we windows people are ripping their work.
but you must admit a mac does better with graphics.
but you must admit a mac does better with graphics.
Hus
Reply #27 Saturday, November 15, 2003 5:54 PM
The majority Mac users are solely Mac users, right? They are fanatical about how Windows is the tool of the devil and Mac was created by God himself. So why worry about Mac skinners being better? They are not gonna jump ship just to skin Konfabulator on Windows. Are the widgets cross-platform? I don't see how they can be...so why even worry? Perhaps Windows users will port objects...but that's about it. That means Konfabulator has to start from scratch for Windows, create a new user-base...DesktopX has it beat by a mile.
Reply #27 Saturday, November 15, 2003 5:54 PM
| c) Our community unable to compete with the Mac community's skinning prowess. |
The majority Mac users are solely Mac users, right? They are fanatical about how Windows is the tool of the devil and Mac was created by God himself. So why worry about Mac skinners being better? They are not gonna jump ship just to skin Konfabulator on Windows. Are the widgets cross-platform? I don't see how they can be...so why even worry? Perhaps Windows users will port objects...but that's about it. That means Konfabulator has to start from scratch for Windows, create a new user-base...DesktopX has it beat by a mile.
bakerstreet
Reply #28 Saturday, November 15, 2003 6:25 PM
Reply #28 Saturday, November 15, 2003 6:25 PM
Hus: Because Mac fetishism *is* cross-platform.
How many times a week do the kids come in and ask how to make their PC look just like a Mac? If the Konfabulator items aren't cross platform, I think you can bank on all the hottest Konfabulator objects being available for the Windows version. I kinda doubt they'll just make the app and rely on new users to skin it.
I think Frogboy is maybe overestimating the Mac-attack, but it will probably be another "XP Theme vs. Windowblinds"-style lovefest. On the bright side, there are a lot of other contenders to splinter the argument, like Talisman, Hoverdesk, Litestep, etc., etc.
No one likes added competition, though, and when it comes with the poseur-chic Macintosh mystique, it will be an added annoyance to us all.
[Message Edited]
How many times a week do the kids come in and ask how to make their PC look just like a Mac? If the Konfabulator items aren't cross platform, I think you can bank on all the hottest Konfabulator objects being available for the Windows version. I kinda doubt they'll just make the app and rely on new users to skin it.
I think Frogboy is maybe overestimating the Mac-attack, but it will probably be another "XP Theme vs. Windowblinds"-style lovefest. On the bright side, there are a lot of other contenders to splinter the argument, like Talisman, Hoverdesk, Litestep, etc., etc.
No one likes added competition, though, and when it comes with the poseur-chic Macintosh mystique, it will be an added annoyance to us all.
[Message Edited]
Hus
Reply #29 Saturday, November 15, 2003 6:40 PM
Reply #29 Saturday, November 15, 2003 6:40 PM
Baker, you make a solid point, but they still have to hope that the program takes off and Windows users begin making objects for it. If it's only the developers porting and a select few making objects, all you will get is a another Samurize-like program, all the ability but a tiny user-base. Samurize has some really nice objects, but you don't hear a lot of noise about it. Konfabulator has to gain solid ground in the skinning market, which undoubtedly Stardock is the 600lb gorilla.
Jafo
Reply #30 Saturday, November 15, 2003 7:57 PM
Reply #30 Saturday, November 15, 2003 7:57 PM
The desire of many to emulate the Mac interface on a PC is two-fold.....availability of hardware/cost factor....and the gee-whizz effect of 'hey look....my PC looks like a Mac, how 1337'.
Neither motivation is about superiority/preference, but about being DIFFERENT......to not look 'almost like bog-standard Windows' but to look 'almost like a totally different interface/computer family'.
I see the Mac progeny of glassy buttons being imitated on PC interfaces as just another fad....like BeOS interfaces of old. They'll go away and eventually another 'fad/fashion' will supplant them.
As for Mac designers being 'superior'....more a case of a FAR greater field of PC skin designers and through simple case of numbers a large number of 'average' quality....example being if there was only ONE Mac designer and he was brilliant then sure, on average the Mac designer would be superior to the PC horde....but that is all about statistical modelling, not reality....
horiz0n
Reply #31 Saturday, November 15, 2003 9:19 PM
Reply #31 Saturday, November 15, 2003 9:19 PM
It's still killing me that people think this is a logical question, who cares what system or OS they're using, It's the people and the applications. Take Jairo for example, do you think that the stuff he does in photoshop is only possible because he has a pc? He could do the exact work running photoshop on a mac. Hardware (pc-mac) has nothing to do with what a PERSON can do with a program nor does it have anything to do with "which" people are using it. After using both your don't even think about it, the biggest difference between the two as far as skinning goes is mac still thinks it's good to just have one mouse button lol
IPlural
Reply #32 Saturday, November 15, 2003 10:22 PM
Reply #32 Saturday, November 15, 2003 10:22 PM
damn bothersome that 
the one button
Claims of rendering speeds seems to be the main stay from few MAC owners I know and have talked with.
That and the fact MAC is the system they learned as the tool of choice for graphics design in school.
Amy is a staunch MAC based Graphics Artist here in the Tampa Bay area and she swears by them and damns
PC's though she has never sat in front of a PC that I know of. odd that...
the one button
Claims of rendering speeds seems to be the main stay from few MAC owners I know and have talked with.
That and the fact MAC is the system they learned as the tool of choice for graphics design in school.
Amy is a staunch MAC based Graphics Artist here in the Tampa Bay area and she swears by them and damns
PC's though she has never sat in front of a PC that I know of. odd that...
digitaljames
Reply #33 Saturday, November 15, 2003 10:35 PM
Reply #33 Saturday, November 15, 2003 10:35 PM
Here's my take...having just switched from Windows to Mac about a year ago.
Better skinners for Mac? No. I say that statement stems from the appearance the OS lends to the GUI. Quartz Extreme and OS X's font rendering capabilities really make the GUI pop. Skinning on the Mac platform is much more limited than Windows, especially XP. I have a state of the art workstation at work running XP and have it customized to the hilt. Even so, its looks like 98 compared to the GUI of my Mac. If Microsoft gets on par with Apple with the Longhorn OS with respect to font rendering and GUI implementation then all bets are off. Most of the better Mac GUI artists are from the old days and are elitists to the platform. William Bart is moving to dual platform skinning as we speak. Max Rudberg and Kevin Husted have been very amicable to porting their creations over to the XP theming scene. Maybe Mac skinners get the idea that they are better due to the fact that skinning Windows is "easier" because it has more complete and functional skinning applications to assemble the skins than OS X. Skinning OS X is a huge pain in the tush. In the end result, it's the art work that is the real basis for skinning and is equal with regard to talent.
Better skinners for Mac? No. I say that statement stems from the appearance the OS lends to the GUI. Quartz Extreme and OS X's font rendering capabilities really make the GUI pop. Skinning on the Mac platform is much more limited than Windows, especially XP. I have a state of the art workstation at work running XP and have it customized to the hilt. Even so, its looks like 98 compared to the GUI of my Mac. If Microsoft gets on par with Apple with the Longhorn OS with respect to font rendering and GUI implementation then all bets are off. Most of the better Mac GUI artists are from the old days and are elitists to the platform. William Bart is moving to dual platform skinning as we speak. Max Rudberg and Kevin Husted have been very amicable to porting their creations over to the XP theming scene. Maybe Mac skinners get the idea that they are better due to the fact that skinning Windows is "easier" because it has more complete and functional skinning applications to assemble the skins than OS X. Skinning OS X is a huge pain in the tush. In the end result, it's the art work that is the real basis for skinning and is equal with regard to talent.
kthxbye
Reply #34 Saturday, November 15, 2003 11:05 PM
Reply #34 Saturday, November 15, 2003 11:05 PM
"But having use Konfabulator, its objects are, on average, slicker than DesktopX objects. DesktopX's weather is nice. But Konfabulator's has nicer images and smoothly slides in and out to an expanded mode. There's more polish in the skins I've seen for the Mac, on average."
Well then, I humbly stand corrected.
I admitted to not keeping up with DesktopX lately. I /love/ the program, but I fully admit I only play with it every now and then - and my beta's just getting older and older. =D
I can't argue about the comments about the Mac images and such though - that's what the Mac's always been about though. Slickness & style. Windows has always been stuck with the stigma of being the polar opposite of that, sadly.
Well then, I humbly stand corrected.
I admitted to not keeping up with DesktopX lately. I /love/ the program, but I fully admit I only play with it every now and then - and my beta's just getting older and older. =DI can't argue about the comments about the Mac images and such though - that's what the Mac's always been about though. Slickness & style. Windows has always been stuck with the stigma of being the polar opposite of that, sadly.
Shameless Designs
Reply #35 Saturday, November 15, 2003 11:55 PM
Reply #35 Saturday, November 15, 2003 11:55 PM
Frogboy said:
As someone who is an old hand at computer graphics on a Mac but quite new to skinning Windows, I can tell you that I agree with those who have said that the quality difference is more about the art and the artists than about either software or hardware. Having said that, a lot of my friends who are very talented artists won't even attempt skinning windows or windows apps. The reason? The art is only half the battle (at best) of skinning for windows. The technical aspects, coding and scripting, are the real barrier to most artists entering the arena, especially with programs like DesktopX.
If Stardock really wants to increase the userbase and especially wants to attract more talented artists in particular, I can tell you how to do it with one keyword: DOCUMENTATION! The improvements that have been made with the software are wonderful. I'm very excited and happy and working my tail off to learn them and publish some skins as soon as I can. But the lack of any documentation in some cases, or poorly written, confusing, or just plain inaccurate manuals, help, etc., in others is extremely frustrating.
I applaud those skinners who have learned the old fashioned way - "Use, Disect, Learn, Improve..." - as Martin says, but if you really want more artists to use your products, make them not only easier to use, but easier to learn. You need to demystify the process if you really want more good artists to become skinners. And yes, as someone else said here, skinning OS X and other Mac apps is also a pain. The big difference is, more experienced graphic artists are familiar with them than they are with Windows and Windows Apps.
[Message Edited]
| So now Konfabulator is coming out for Windows. My view is, if Konfabulator becomes more popular somehow than DesktopX then we're a bunch of losers who deserve to be on the ash heap of history. With a 2 year head start and a lot more features (and DesktopX is cheaper!) the only way I can see DesktopX losing is through either a) Stardock sucking at development or Stardock sucking at marketing or c) Our community unable to compete with the Mac community's skinning prowess. |
As someone who is an old hand at computer graphics on a Mac but quite new to skinning Windows, I can tell you that I agree with those who have said that the quality difference is more about the art and the artists than about either software or hardware. Having said that, a lot of my friends who are very talented artists won't even attempt skinning windows or windows apps. The reason? The art is only half the battle (at best) of skinning for windows. The technical aspects, coding and scripting, are the real barrier to most artists entering the arena, especially with programs like DesktopX.
If Stardock really wants to increase the userbase and especially wants to attract more talented artists in particular, I can tell you how to do it with one keyword: DOCUMENTATION! The improvements that have been made with the software are wonderful. I'm very excited and happy and working my tail off to learn them and publish some skins as soon as I can. But the lack of any documentation in some cases, or poorly written, confusing, or just plain inaccurate manuals, help, etc., in others is extremely frustrating.
I applaud those skinners who have learned the old fashioned way - "Use, Disect, Learn, Improve..." - as Martin says, but if you really want more artists to use your products, make them not only easier to use, but easier to learn. You need to demystify the process if you really want more good artists to become skinners. And yes, as someone else said here, skinning OS X and other Mac apps is also a pain. The big difference is, more experienced graphic artists are familiar with them than they are with Windows and Windows Apps.
[Message Edited]
horiz0n
Reply #36 Sunday, November 16, 2003 12:24 AM
Reply #36 Sunday, November 16, 2003 12:24 AM
right all, but the question isn't about the apps, the gui, the render speeds, the processors, slickness of movement, it's about whether mac has better skinners, which is the equivelant of asking which has better consumers, people that eat pepperoni pizza or the works?
joetheblow
Reply #37 Sunday, November 16, 2003 12:49 AM
Reply #37 Sunday, November 16, 2003 12:49 AM
I agree with Frogboy
Bakerstreet, get a blog.
I'll be the first to sign up to read them.
as for your first post here I have to think about that some more.
Are you saying that commercialism is good for skinning or bad?
Bakerstreet, get a blog.
I'll be the first to sign up to read them.
as for your first post here I have to think about that some more.
Are you saying that commercialism is good for skinning or bad?
craeonics
Reply #38 Sunday, November 16, 2003 9:13 AM
Reply #38 Sunday, November 16, 2003 9:13 AM
Baker is not alone in what he says (which, by the way, is not a novel concept, thoughts like these have been around for years).
Wouldn't label it as good or bad, but merely different. With the change comes a change in attitude, which means some people leave and others join. Those that leave will probably think it's bad and those that are new will think it's good.
Anyhow, as soon as imitation begins to outweigh innovation, you're screwed.
Wouldn't label it as good or bad, but merely different. With the change comes a change in attitude, which means some people leave and others join. Those that leave will probably think it's bad and those that are new will think it's good.
Anyhow, as soon as imitation begins to outweigh innovation, you're screwed.
Koasati
Reply #39 Sunday, November 16, 2003 11:12 AM
I couldn't agree more!
Reply #39 Sunday, November 16, 2003 11:12 AM
| DOCUMENTATION! The improvements that have been made with the software are wonderful. But the lack of any documentation in some cases, or poorly written, confusing, or just plain inaccurate manuals, help, etc., in others is extremely frustrating. |
I couldn't agree more!
bakerstreet
Reply #40 Sunday, November 16, 2003 12:30 PM
Reply #40 Sunday, November 16, 2003 12:30 PM
To clarify the 'commercialism' thing:
I saw a Discovery channel special on amateur rocketry recently; 15 foot rockets that went 30,000 feet up at Mach 2, costing thousands of dollars. There is no hope of 'sponsorship', nor do they intend to sell what they make. They do it for the sheer enjoyment of doing it. That is what I sense when I cruise the best work at Mac sites. These are very skilled folks who are enjoying making skins. I lost that a while back, as did many in the community, I think.
Around 2000, Jesha was doing the byte-audio thing, I was getting for-hire offers, skinz org was being slowly strangled, and you couldn't associate in IRC for 5 minutes without hearing about the business of skinning. I already had an ear full about how I was stupid for giving away my talent, for dropping $600 for Photoshop, etc. In the middle of it all Jesha comes to me and says "Hey, lets get to work!!"
Well, I didn't handle it very well and behaved like... well, like me. I should have said "No, thanks" and kept right on doing what I was doing, but I didn't. I lashed out at folks and let it ruin skinning for me. I think most would agree that the GUI Olympics debacle and other hardships of the time were extensions of that mood, and that many good skinners either went into seclusion, or left us entirely. I admire those that were able to weather that time without losing their drive.
We now have equilibrium to a point. Jesha seems to have found a really nice spot with SkinsFactory, and the astounding skins they make show that commercialism can be very good for art. Quality skins are being made througout the community, but you can feel a vacuum, right at the point that amateur work becomes professional-grade work. The Mac skinning sites don't seem to share that void.
There isn’t enough money to pay professionals for all the skins we need to energize the artform, so this community *needs* the elite hobbyist. To have a stable pool of such, we need to tune-out all the pressure to commercialize, and be satisfied with making beautiful UI for our peers. We can't feel silly for giving our skill away, or horribly wronged when it is stolen. Remember K-jofol? Remember Phong? I miss those days.
I'm not against selling art, nor am I ruling out my participation in such $$
$$ , but I think the pressure to 'take the next step' has a dampening effect on those who really aren’t interested in 'business'. I think equal parts of understanding from business people, and tolerance FOR them, could really set the right mood.
That is difficult on the internet, honestly. I'm working up something for JoeUser about this. Again, this is one guy's perspective, your own mileage may vary.
[Message Edited]
I saw a Discovery channel special on amateur rocketry recently; 15 foot rockets that went 30,000 feet up at Mach 2, costing thousands of dollars. There is no hope of 'sponsorship', nor do they intend to sell what they make. They do it for the sheer enjoyment of doing it. That is what I sense when I cruise the best work at Mac sites. These are very skilled folks who are enjoying making skins. I lost that a while back, as did many in the community, I think.
Around 2000, Jesha was doing the byte-audio thing, I was getting for-hire offers, skinz org was being slowly strangled, and you couldn't associate in IRC for 5 minutes without hearing about the business of skinning. I already had an ear full about how I was stupid for giving away my talent, for dropping $600 for Photoshop, etc. In the middle of it all Jesha comes to me and says "Hey, lets get to work!!"
Well, I didn't handle it very well and behaved like... well, like me. I should have said "No, thanks" and kept right on doing what I was doing, but I didn't. I lashed out at folks and let it ruin skinning for me. I think most would agree that the GUI Olympics debacle and other hardships of the time were extensions of that mood, and that many good skinners either went into seclusion, or left us entirely. I admire those that were able to weather that time without losing their drive.
We now have equilibrium to a point. Jesha seems to have found a really nice spot with SkinsFactory, and the astounding skins they make show that commercialism can be very good for art. Quality skins are being made througout the community, but you can feel a vacuum, right at the point that amateur work becomes professional-grade work. The Mac skinning sites don't seem to share that void.
There isn’t enough money to pay professionals for all the skins we need to energize the artform, so this community *needs* the elite hobbyist. To have a stable pool of such, we need to tune-out all the pressure to commercialize, and be satisfied with making beautiful UI for our peers. We can't feel silly for giving our skill away, or horribly wronged when it is stolen. Remember K-jofol? Remember Phong? I miss those days.
I'm not against selling art, nor am I ruling out my participation in such $$
$$ , but I think the pressure to 'take the next step' has a dampening effect on those who really aren’t interested in 'business'. I think equal parts of understanding from business people, and tolerance FOR them, could really set the right mood.That is difficult on the internet, honestly. I'm working up something for JoeUser about this. Again, this is one guy's perspective, your own mileage may vary.
[Message Edited]
Please login to comment and/or vote for this skin.
Welcome Guest! Please take the time to register with us.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
- Richer content, access to many features that are disabled for guests like commenting on the forums and downloading skins.
- Access to a great community, with a massive database of many, many areas of interest.
- Access to contests & subscription offers like exclusive emails.
- It's simple, and FREE!
|
|
Page 2 of 5 | |
|
|---|
Reply #21 Saturday, November 15, 2003 1:13 PM
For sure the proportion of skinners vr users is much higher in the mac world due to the fact the graphic designing industry practically kept the mac alive singlehandedly for many years.
For that reason the chances of more high-quality skins "per capita" from the mac world is more likely.
On the other hand the research and development balance tips so heavily in favor of the pc's, I think in the end that will the deciding factor in answering Frogboy's question.
* warning, blatant plug coming*
In terms of computer desktop interface modification there are alternatives to the commercial products, for example Litestep. Although not always for the faint of heart, it's an extremely powerfull way to change the way your computer looks and works.
*end plug