Creation vs. Evolution
Thursday, September 11, 2003 by grayhaze | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I thought I'd pre-empt this discussion before Kona's comment in the other thread sparked it off there. There is concrete proof that we evolved, but no proof that we were created. What's you're opinion, and why?
To quote Phoebe from Friends: "I guess the real question is who put those fossils there and why?"
To quote Phoebe from Friends: "I guess the real question is who put those fossils there and why?"
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Stupendous Man
Reply #542 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 7:09 PM
Reply #542 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 7:09 PM
jafo,
"Ah...hope abandoned you, I'm afraid.....
To amend that analogy slightly.....what if instead of a cement mixer you had a dozen mindless robots and an eternity to 'fiddle' with potential ways to add one component to another.......eventually, sooner or later, all the right bits would be in the right places....and you'd have an accurate definition of 'evolution', [whereas 'God' could just be the the guy who kicks all the junk into the corner, says 'stuff it' and goes watch the football]."
And Aleatoric,
I will agree that there will be some parts/components that Are going to come together as they should be; however the chances of *all* the necessary parts coming together in the *correct combinations* so that all you would need to do is turn the power on, is so astronomical as to be '0'.
you would have a better chance of hitting the lottery once per month for one year solid. And that's not even beginning to speak of the *far* higher complexity of the human body and mind.
Another example, if you were to find a house sitting in the middle of the Sahara Desert, complete with working water, gas, and electric utilities, a fully stocked
refrigerator and closet; and were told that the owner piled the materials there, came back later, and there stood the completed house. What would you think of his mental stability? Now, I am not impliying that one who believes in evolution is crazy, i'm only pointing out the unliklihood of our existence coming about in that way.
Kona,
As I have already stated, there is a whole world of proof to support your belief. Just go out side. One proof is pregnancy. The body will destroy any foreign body within it. Yet, a fetus, which is not completely the mom, nor completely the dad, will not only survive but thrive. I think that's excellent proof of God's existanece. But as you say, not all believe. And that's o.k. To each his own, right?
time for me to go home, talk to ya'll later.
"Ah...hope abandoned you, I'm afraid.....
To amend that analogy slightly.....what if instead of a cement mixer you had a dozen mindless robots and an eternity to 'fiddle' with potential ways to add one component to another.......eventually, sooner or later, all the right bits would be in the right places....and you'd have an accurate definition of 'evolution', [whereas 'God' could just be the the guy who kicks all the junk into the corner, says 'stuff it' and goes watch the football]."
And Aleatoric,
| The computer (watch, etc.) analogy is flawed. While many of the background forces (radiation, etc.) are random, the interrelationships between atoms and molecules have an affinity for certain combinations. Given enough time, that affinity, moderated by the random forces, can increase complexity (Jafo's random computer assembling robots |
I will agree that there will be some parts/components that Are going to come together as they should be; however the chances of *all* the necessary parts coming together in the *correct combinations* so that all you would need to do is turn the power on, is so astronomical as to be '0'.
you would have a better chance of hitting the lottery once per month for one year solid. And that's not even beginning to speak of the *far* higher complexity of the human body and mind.
Another example, if you were to find a house sitting in the middle of the Sahara Desert, complete with working water, gas, and electric utilities, a fully stocked
refrigerator and closet; and were told that the owner piled the materials there, came back later, and there stood the completed house. What would you think of his mental stability? Now, I am not impliying that one who believes in evolution is crazy, i'm only pointing out the unliklihood of our existence coming about in that way.
| I need no proof of God because I believe in God. |
Kona,
As I have already stated, there is a whole world of proof to support your belief. Just go out side. One proof is pregnancy. The body will destroy any foreign body within it. Yet, a fetus, which is not completely the mom, nor completely the dad, will not only survive but thrive. I think that's excellent proof of God's existanece. But as you say, not all believe. And that's o.k. To each his own, right?
time for me to go home, talk to ya'll later.
Chris TH
Reply #543 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 7:49 PM
It is possible to get order out of chaos under certain conditions, most important of which is that there's a net flow of energy in & out of the system being examined i.e it's NOT a closed system. A classic example is weather formations like tornados, cyclones etc. Witness the red spot on Jupiter. Biological entities are also open systems that use up energy in order to 'complexify' themselves.
I'm sorry but that's a pretty undisciplined interpretation of 'proof'
How would the species succeed if it's immune system attacked it's foetus? By definition, only those where this *DIDN'T* occur would succeed. 
Reply #543 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 7:49 PM
| will agree that there will be some parts/components that Are going to come together as they should be; however the chances of *all* the necessary parts coming together in the *correct combinations* so that all you would need to do is turn the power on, is so astronomical as to be '0'. Another example, if you were to find a house sitting in the middle of the Sahara Desert, complete with working water, gas, and electric utilities, a fully stockedrefrigerator and closet; and were told that the owner piled the materials there, came back later, and there stood the completed house. What would you think of his mental stability? Now, I am not impliying that one who believes in evolution is crazy, i'm only pointing out the unliklihood of our existence coming about in that way. |
It is possible to get order out of chaos under certain conditions, most important of which is that there's a net flow of energy in & out of the system being examined i.e it's NOT a closed system. A classic example is weather formations like tornados, cyclones etc. Witness the red spot on Jupiter. Biological entities are also open systems that use up energy in order to 'complexify' themselves.
| One proof is pregnancy. The body will destroy any foreign body within it. Yet, a fetus, which is not completely the mom, nor completely the dad, will not only survive but thrive. I think that's excellent proof of God's existanece |
I'm sorry but that's a pretty undisciplined interpretation of 'proof'
How would the species succeed if it's immune system attacked it's foetus? By definition, only those where this *DIDN'T* occur would succeed. 
Jafo
Reply #544 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 7:54 PM
Reply #544 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 7:54 PM
papidon.....what if there were billions of groups of robots with the same set of components....given millions of years to get it 'right'?.....sure it is 'astronomical' [or rather infinitesimally small] but it is also very definitely NOT 'zero', hence the probability is finite and real....
My 'revised' analogy is pertinent and realistic and is the basis of the scientific interpretation of 'creation and evolution'.
Actually....put the correct components into Earth's 'melting pot' and you'd have a better chance of creating life than winning a supposedly genuinely 'random' lottery, or, put another way, scientists will successfully create life sooner than they will successfully guarantee a lottery win....[though heaven knows which they'd prefer to be able to do]...
paxx
Reply #545 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 8:06 PM
Reply #545 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 8:06 PM
| One proof is pregnancy. The body will destroy any foreign body within it. Yet, a fetus, which is not completely the mom, nor completely the dad, will not only survive but thrive. I think that's excellent proof of God's existanece |
Sorry, but the answer to that lies in blood groups. There are organ transplants you know. And blood transfusion. The body will indeed reject any other body unless it has a compatible blood group. And the faetus first uses his mom's blood, then eventually his own, which always is compatible with his mother's (genetics).
To come back to Kona's question about gendres, I'd like to remind you that not every species on earth have the same reproductive system as us. Reproduction is usually well adapted to the species, and that's how it survives. That's evolution. What works best for a plant or animal is how it manages to survive. Those who's reproductive methods were not adapted, eventually gor extinct, and that's why they're not around anymore. What you see today is the result of millions, billions of years of trial and errors. Before animals and plants that we see today, there were many many many that never made it, and that we'll never know.
If God made every species on earth, why didn't he make them all reproduce the same way?
Aleatoric
Reply #546 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 9:46 PM
Reply #546 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 9:46 PM
papidon,
You misunderstand the problem domain in which you're working. First, in terms of probability, the time frame involved is enormous. And given the tendency of atomic and molecular affinity to combine, the probability of various complex combinations is fairly high. Combine a relatively high probability of combination over a *very* long amount of time, and a *lot* can (and will) occur.
The following link provides a great deal of information concerning (and refuting) the statistical impossibility arguments of the literal creationists.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html
To reiterate my own position, God exists and is responsible for the universe. Evolution *did* occur, and natural selection is currently our best theory concerning the mechanism of evolution.
Even the Pope accepts that the theories of evolution have validity, as long as God is still involved as the instantiating force.
There is *no* actual conflict between God and science. He created the universe and set in motion all of the circumstances that lead to the current situation.
He also designed us so that we can grow to study, learn, and understand the underlying principles that govern the universe, including the questions of our own evolution and existence.
To argue that God could not create in this fashion is to diminish Him. I prefer a God that can create the universe as we see it and understand it with science and the intellect and wisdom He gave us over a God that is limited by human dogma.
You misunderstand the problem domain in which you're working. First, in terms of probability, the time frame involved is enormous. And given the tendency of atomic and molecular affinity to combine, the probability of various complex combinations is fairly high. Combine a relatively high probability of combination over a *very* long amount of time, and a *lot* can (and will) occur.
The following link provides a great deal of information concerning (and refuting) the statistical impossibility arguments of the literal creationists.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html
To reiterate my own position, God exists and is responsible for the universe. Evolution *did* occur, and natural selection is currently our best theory concerning the mechanism of evolution.
Even the Pope accepts that the theories of evolution have validity, as long as God is still involved as the instantiating force.
There is *no* actual conflict between God and science. He created the universe and set in motion all of the circumstances that lead to the current situation.
He also designed us so that we can grow to study, learn, and understand the underlying principles that govern the universe, including the questions of our own evolution and existence.
To argue that God could not create in this fashion is to diminish Him. I prefer a God that can create the universe as we see it and understand it with science and the intellect and wisdom He gave us over a God that is limited by human dogma.
Chris TH
Reply #547 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 10:03 PM
Also, serious students of theology do not seem to be perturbed by scientific findings. This goes all the way back to Thomas Aquinas in the 14th? 15th? century.
Reply #547 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 10:03 PM
| Even the Pope accepts that the theories of evolution have validity |
Also, serious students of theology do not seem to be perturbed by scientific findings. This goes all the way back to Thomas Aquinas in the 14th? 15th? century.
joetheblow
Reply #548 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 10:14 PM
Where is my inviso shield when I need it?
Scratch that:
Impregnable shield (Stardock of course... who else?)
[Message Edited]
Reply #548 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 10:14 PM
| Case in point: Anyone ever been to Yellowstone national park? Old Faithful, geysers, etc. You know why they're there? The entire part of that state is the top of a super volcano that goes up every once in a long long while. When it goes up, it'll wipe out most of North America. It's overdue. |
Where is my inviso shield when I need it?
Scratch that:
Impregnable shield (Stardock of course... who else?)
[Message Edited]
The Rated PG
Reply #549 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 10:20 PM
Reply #549 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 10:20 PM
Is it possible that Mount Rushmore was merely carved by erosion of wind over time? Obviously not. You can clearly see that it was Created.....
Aleatoric
Reply #550 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 10:30 PM
Reply #550 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 10:30 PM
Mount Rushmore was *created*?
Man, now I'm really going to have to revise my position
I thought those guys looked familiar!
Man, now I'm really going to have to revise my position
I thought those guys looked familiar!
joetheblow
Reply #551 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 10:33 PM
Reply #551 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 10:33 PM
Is it possible that something set it up to be random? Set it up to be a possibility for life?
Evolution shouldn't be the reaons why someone does not believe in God or a spirit of sorts that made or worked on the Universe.
For me the same 'proof' that there is no God can be turned around to say that there is one.
I think the word god is a loaded word. We all fall under the rules of this Universe and it is our care giver whether it is what we call alive or not.
Evolution shouldn't be the reaons why someone does not believe in God or a spirit of sorts that made or worked on the Universe.
For me the same 'proof' that there is no God can be turned around to say that there is one.
I think the word god is a loaded word. We all fall under the rules of this Universe and it is our care giver whether it is what we call alive or not.
joetheblow
Reply #555 Thursday, October 9, 2003 1:49 AM
Reply #555 Thursday, October 9, 2003 1:49 AM
God is... gone????
How did I missed that? Why am I still here?
When you die, does your life live on in your creations?
How did I missed that? Why am I still here?
When you die, does your life live on in your creations?
EventHorizon
Reply #556 Thursday, October 9, 2003 2:04 AM
Reply #556 Thursday, October 9, 2003 2:04 AM
I wonder if treetog will like living in one of his skins...
coffeefreak
Reply #557 Thursday, October 9, 2003 5:28 AM
Reply #557 Thursday, October 9, 2003 5:28 AM
heres a question.how could there be evidence of creation when they were just created on the spot? thats the point in my opinion.where as there is "evidence" of evolution there can be none of creation since god would have JUST created them.
Stupendous Man
Reply #558 Thursday, October 9, 2003 11:39 AM
Simple, he likes variety.
that's why you find different type of flowers, variations in the big cats: Lions, Tigers, Jaguars, and your common house cat. Same type, just a little variation.
Reply #558 Thursday, October 9, 2003 11:39 AM
| If God made every species on earth, why didn't he make them all reproduce the same way? |
Simple, he likes variety.
that's why you find different type of flowers, variations in the big cats: Lions, Tigers, Jaguars, and your common house cat. Same type, just a little variation.
paxx
Reply #559 Thursday, October 9, 2003 11:44 AM
Reply #559 Thursday, October 9, 2003 11:44 AM
I don't know.
Say you're a programmer and make a bunch of different applications. They may all be very different and accomplish different things, but I'm pretty sure that the "save as" command for all of these would be the same. Why make them different if one way works?
Say you're a programmer and make a bunch of different applications. They may all be very different and accomplish different things, but I'm pretty sure that the "save as" command for all of these would be the same. Why make them different if one way works?
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #560 Thursday, October 9, 2003 12:33 PM
Reply #560 Thursday, October 9, 2003 12:33 PM
OK, so here's the ultimate creation question everyone's been avoiding:
If God created us etc, who created God?
If God created us etc, who created God?
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Reply #541 Wednesday, October 8, 2003 2:39 AM
Which I should have quoted, which is a total duh on my part...
Seems we have like interests in some things...
[Message Edited]