Creation vs. Evolution
Thursday, September 11, 2003 by grayhaze | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I thought I'd pre-empt this discussion before Kona's comment in the other thread sparked it off there. There is concrete proof that we evolved, but no proof that we were created. What's you're opinion, and why?
To quote Phoebe from Friends: "I guess the real question is who put those fossils there and why?"
To quote Phoebe from Friends: "I guess the real question is who put those fossils there and why?"
 |
|
Page 26 of 56 | |
|
|---|
Doreen
Reply #502 Saturday, September 20, 2003 8:14 AM
Reply #502 Saturday, September 20, 2003 8:14 AM
Aleatoric you say science can semi prove things and w/ God you cannot prove anything I don't know anything or how this really all works but one thing I do know is we will "never" know for sure until it is over for us...
I don't like sharing things such as this but here goes:
I currently have not one but two sick relatives right now that may or may not be soon finding out the answers to some of our questions since they both have been told they are terminal and will die.
One is still in the process of going through alot of things and he has accepted this and his fate (though me and the rest of my family have not)
The other relative is currently in the ICU and only 27 yo, he ended up unexpededly and I was called to the hospital to say my goodbyes to him from the rest of the family as the Doctors told them nothing can be done, brain scans reveal he is almost gone there, and the respiratory is doing 100% of his breathing and all organs and digestions has stopped so they stopped feedings and are simply waiting for his heart now to stop...
I went to the ICU last week and "seen" what I believed was a 99% corpse in front of my eyes his skin was white w/ bruises where the IV's run and his body felt like ice and was hard. his chest only moving up and down from the breathing machine, I spoke w/ his nurse and she said to make a long story short "this is it, nothing can be done it's over for him"
His Doctor who looks to be from India told my family they did everything and just pray? (I wondered what God they pray to?)
Anyways, I went into the ICU and figured why not? so I layed my hands on his head and he twitched (scared the hell out of me so I called the nurse who said it was his nerves) after she left I held his hand (was hard and cold and felt dead)
It twitched, freaked me out! but I prayed and said inside "God reveal yourself by healing Gabriel show his mother who is making his funeral arrangements, show his nurse, show is Doctor that you exist"
two days later he pulled his tubes out and they had to sedate him and he is getting a Trach done to make him more comfortable today I think it will be done today yesterday they were suppose to but did not for some reason w/ the schedule.
He is breathing though still on the machine he is only half assisted now, they have begun feedings his organs are beginning to work, kidneys are producing output and digestion is working and bowel output, his blood count is moving up and his eyes are opening his color is back and his skin is not hard like before...
Do I know what happened for sure? No! The Doctors don't know what happened either, I only know I prayed and I "think" God heard and revealed himself but I'm human so I myself fight in my mind was it God or did the Doctors make a mistake?
I don't know! (This scares me sometimes when God does reveal) I don't think we can handle seeing him...
I don't like sharing things such as this but here goes:
I currently have not one but two sick relatives right now that may or may not be soon finding out the answers to some of our questions since they both have been told they are terminal and will die.
One is still in the process of going through alot of things and he has accepted this and his fate (though me and the rest of my family have not)
The other relative is currently in the ICU and only 27 yo, he ended up unexpededly and I was called to the hospital to say my goodbyes to him from the rest of the family as the Doctors told them nothing can be done, brain scans reveal he is almost gone there, and the respiratory is doing 100% of his breathing and all organs and digestions has stopped so they stopped feedings and are simply waiting for his heart now to stop...
I went to the ICU last week and "seen" what I believed was a 99% corpse in front of my eyes his skin was white w/ bruises where the IV's run and his body felt like ice and was hard. his chest only moving up and down from the breathing machine, I spoke w/ his nurse and she said to make a long story short "this is it, nothing can be done it's over for him"
His Doctor who looks to be from India told my family they did everything and just pray? (I wondered what God they pray to?)
Anyways, I went into the ICU and figured why not? so I layed my hands on his head and he twitched (scared the hell out of me so I called the nurse who said it was his nerves) after she left I held his hand (was hard and cold and felt dead)
It twitched, freaked me out! but I prayed and said inside "God reveal yourself by healing Gabriel show his mother who is making his funeral arrangements, show his nurse, show is Doctor that you exist"
two days later he pulled his tubes out and they had to sedate him and he is getting a Trach done to make him more comfortable today I think it will be done today yesterday they were suppose to but did not for some reason w/ the schedule.
He is breathing though still on the machine he is only half assisted now, they have begun feedings his organs are beginning to work, kidneys are producing output and digestion is working and bowel output, his blood count is moving up and his eyes are opening his color is back and his skin is not hard like before...
Do I know what happened for sure? No! The Doctors don't know what happened either, I only know I prayed and I "think" God heard and revealed himself but I'm human so I myself fight in my mind was it God or did the Doctors make a mistake?
I don't know! (This scares me sometimes when God does reveal) I don't think we can handle seeing him...
Doreen
Reply #503 Saturday, September 20, 2003 10:12 AM
Reply #503 Saturday, September 20, 2003 10:12 AM
Sorry you guys I prob should not have posted that, but I did, so those of you laughing (your welcome) 
Those of you that believe that there is something else please pray for Gabriel and my step father (I'd appreciate it)
I found out they did the Trach at 6:00 but his mouth will not close (whatever that means I guess cuz of the tube he had for too long) anyways I'm going to go visit him today. I only know one thing right now that I don't "know" still if he will leave that hospital or not alive (so please pray it might help)
I wanted to just say to those that read this I'm not a nut (maybe a lil) hehe
my relationship w/ God has always been strange cuz I can never explain things right, but I think of myself as a disobedient daughter who is playing russian roulette w/ him and I tend to joke and mock him and he tends to slap me around alot having the last laugh. Why he has not struck me down yet I don't know?
I've seen him reveal himself in a few ways such as I described above during my life but I run around doubting and knowing both at the same time (does that make sense)
bottom line is we won't know anything until it's over but the debates will continue I guess until the end, who knows?
Those of you that believe that there is something else please pray for Gabriel and my step father (I'd appreciate it)
I found out they did the Trach at 6:00 but his mouth will not close (whatever that means I guess cuz of the tube he had for too long) anyways I'm going to go visit him today. I only know one thing right now that I don't "know" still if he will leave that hospital or not alive (so please pray it might help)
I wanted to just say to those that read this I'm not a nut (maybe a lil) hehe
my relationship w/ God has always been strange cuz I can never explain things right, but I think of myself as a disobedient daughter who is playing russian roulette w/ him and I tend to joke and mock him and he tends to slap me around alot having the last laugh. Why he has not struck me down yet I don't know?
I've seen him reveal himself in a few ways such as I described above during my life but I run around doubting and knowing both at the same time (does that make sense)
bottom line is we won't know anything until it's over but the debates will continue I guess until the end, who knows?
Aleatoric
Reply #504 Saturday, September 20, 2003 10:50 AM
Reply #504 Saturday, September 20, 2003 10:50 AM
BakerStreet,
Thanks for the response, well said as always
Unfortunately, I do have to agree that we have created a class of people who will believe anything just because someone tells them to (whether scientific or religious, etc.).
Virtually all of the systems we use to educate have been distilled down to merely a parade of facts or directives, often with little behind them to give reason and context. What we aren't doing enough of is teaching people how to *think*. We're only teaching them how to remember.
I think to some degree, what I try to do in my life (and in these posts), is to try to get people to actually think about what they invest themselves in, and why. You won't always find a clear cut answer or set of facts, but you may progress beyond the mere acceptance of the word of some 'authority'.
Doreen,
My heart (and prayers) go out to you and yours. It's always hard to watch when those you love go through such things.
I don't think your viewpoint is weird. One of my best friends has what seems to be a very similar viewpoint.
I, myself, have witnessed events such as you speak of where the prayers or presence or touch of someone sparks a change in those situtations. The scientist in me tends to think that these events can be explained scientifically, and it is possible that they can, but they are obviously outside of scientific scope for now. Events like these are also part of the reason I have faith, because they indicate that there is a subtle, and perhaps even purposeful, interrelationship between us all.
I think the two sides of my personality (science and God), go a long way toward keeping me honest with myself about both.
[Message Edited]
Thanks for the response, well said as always
Unfortunately, I do have to agree that we have created a class of people who will believe anything just because someone tells them to (whether scientific or religious, etc.).
Virtually all of the systems we use to educate have been distilled down to merely a parade of facts or directives, often with little behind them to give reason and context. What we aren't doing enough of is teaching people how to *think*. We're only teaching them how to remember.
I think to some degree, what I try to do in my life (and in these posts), is to try to get people to actually think about what they invest themselves in, and why. You won't always find a clear cut answer or set of facts, but you may progress beyond the mere acceptance of the word of some 'authority'.
Doreen,
My heart (and prayers) go out to you and yours. It's always hard to watch when those you love go through such things.
I don't think your viewpoint is weird. One of my best friends has what seems to be a very similar viewpoint.
I, myself, have witnessed events such as you speak of where the prayers or presence or touch of someone sparks a change in those situtations. The scientist in me tends to think that these events can be explained scientifically, and it is possible that they can, but they are obviously outside of scientific scope for now. Events like these are also part of the reason I have faith, because they indicate that there is a subtle, and perhaps even purposeful, interrelationship between us all.
I think the two sides of my personality (science and God), go a long way toward keeping me honest with myself about both.
[Message Edited]
Andrew Siamons
Reply #505 Saturday, September 20, 2003 10:55 AM
Reply #505 Saturday, September 20, 2003 10:55 AM
Didn't You here this
https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?BID=WC&id=191641
https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?BID=WC&id=191641
Doreen
Reply #506 Saturday, September 20, 2003 3:22 PM
Reply #506 Saturday, September 20, 2003 3:22 PM
Thank you Aleatoric (I appreciate that)
my touch had nothing to do w/ it, I only described what happened, the reaction to my touch that the nurse said was just his nerves made "me think" he was not quite as gone as they said cuz he responded to stimuli... so I figured at that point why not pray like the doctor said? and I already told you guys the rest...
he looked good today, still in ICU still heavily sedated and still they are not sure what is going on or whether he will fully recover or not, but he is still here and moving in the right direction towards recovery as far as we can tell
my touch had nothing to do w/ it, I only described what happened, the reaction to my touch that the nurse said was just his nerves made "me think" he was not quite as gone as they said cuz he responded to stimuli... so I figured at that point why not pray like the doctor said? and I already told you guys the rest...
he looked good today, still in ICU still heavily sedated and still they are not sure what is going on or whether he will fully recover or not, but he is still here and moving in the right direction towards recovery as far as we can tell
paxx
Reply #507 Saturday, September 20, 2003 3:40 PM
Reply #507 Saturday, September 20, 2003 3:40 PM
Doreen, there are things that happens that medicine cannot yet explain. Maybe it's God, or maybe it's not. I knew a woman who had cancer and doctors didn't give her 6 months to live. She had two yound children, around 2 and 4. Well, she said, there is no way I can die, I have two children who need me. She died when they got 18 and 20. She was athiest, so it's not prayers. But I believe that the brain has powers that science hasn't discovered yet.
Bakerstreet: yes, I will agree with you to one point. I think that some people NEED to believe in something. In the old days, people turned to priests and God, and now it seems that doctors and science have replaced them. There is indeed blind faith in the "white coat" people. For some reason, if you say you're a doctor, everybody suddently listens to you, as if you were more believable that somebody else. Just look at commercials. Fake doctors and fake scientists all the time saying that Asperin is better, or Advil, or Benedril, or whatever. If a doctors says that it's good, then it must be, right?
A shame. Apparently a lot of people have difficulty trying to forge their own opinion and they need a beleivable person to guide them, weather it's a priest or a doctor...
Doreen
Reply #508 Saturday, September 20, 2003 7:46 PM
Reply #508 Saturday, September 20, 2003 7:46 PM
Paxxy maybe ppl do need to believe in something as you said, I myself would rather think that after we die it's over and we can just finally get some much needed rest when life is finished w/ us...
joetheblow
Reply #509 Sunday, September 21, 2003 9:46 AM
Reply #509 Sunday, September 21, 2003 9:46 AM
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/package.jsp?name=fte/biblicaltunnel/biblicaltunnel
The tunnel might be true. Not a story to help guide some one.
The tunnel might be true. Not a story to help guide some one.
IPlural
Reply #510 Sunday, September 21, 2003 12:16 PM
Reply #510 Sunday, September 21, 2003 12:16 PM
If there is a Heaven as so many feel exists, I hope it is more along the lines of the movie "What dreams may come"...
Better than bow or broil....
enlightenment...
[Message Edited]
Better than bow or broil....
enlightenment...
[Message Edited]
kona0197
Reply #511 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 12:52 AM
Reply #511 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 12:52 AM
OK I thought about this and I have a question.
If we evolved how did the male/female evolution happen?
Not meant to start a arguement, just curious.
If we evolved how did the male/female evolution happen?
Not meant to start a arguement, just curious.
kona0197
Reply #513 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 1:22 AM
Reply #513 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 1:22 AM
no I meant how did a single cell that we all came from ( according to evolution) make males and females different? we are to perfectly constructed so how is it possible?
MadIce
Reply #514 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 1:45 AM
Reply #514 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 1:45 AM
http://library.thinkquest.org/19926/text/tour/00.htm?tqskip1=1&tqtime=1007
EventHorizon
Reply #515 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 1:49 AM
Reply #515 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 1:49 AM
Right, I was just speculating why we dont reproduce the way many other 'lower life forms' do. 
Chris TH
Reply #516 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 2:54 AM
The same way a cyclone (hurricane to you yanks
) can change from a 'perfect' single rotating storm into multiple 'cells' - each representative of the original, yet different.
I'm going to let you stew on that while I put the kids to bed
Reply #516 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 2:54 AM
| no I meant how did a single cell that we all came from ( according to evolution) make males and females different? we are to perfectly constructed so how is it possible? |
The same way a cyclone (hurricane to you yanks
) can change from a 'perfect' single rotating storm into multiple 'cells' - each representative of the original, yet different.I'm going to let you stew on that while I put the kids to bed
Aleatoric
Reply #517 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 8:15 AM
Reply #517 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 8:15 AM
Hi Kona!
Without getting too technical, here's the standard view from the natural selection viewpoint of evolution:
At some point, abiogenesis occurs (the point at which a particular molecular structure gains (at least some of) the characteristics of life (including the ability to make copies of itself).
As a result, there are soon, quite a large number of copies of this lifeform (all identical so far). Random mutation occurs. The vast majority of these mutations are harmful, and the lifeform becomes non-viable. Every once in a while, the mutation confers a non lethal difference in the characteristic of the lifeform. If this difference provides a survival (or reproductive) advantage to the lifeform (they can survive more easily in their environment, or they can reproduce much faster than the other forms), then they will become the dominant form in that environment.
Fast forward for a bit. We're now in an environment with more advanced life, but they still all reproduce via mitosis (direct copies). Another random mutation occurs that doesn't render the victim non-viable. Perhaps it now finds that it can initiate a copying process with another non mutated member of it's type. (Most likely, this was not a one-shot event). Sooner or later, the ability is gained to reproduce by mixing genetic information from two (or maybe even more) members.
This confers a survival and reproduction benefit in the following manner: If a lifeform reproduces by division only, any change in its structure will be passed on to all future copies. Sooner or later, the error rate will become lethal (or at least non-viable in the environment, or change to something else entirely).
Bisexual reproduction however, confers two primary reproductive benefits. First, the commingling of two sources of genetic information (which is primarily identical, with only small differences) provides a great deal of resistance to cascading mutation failure (multiple reproductive sources provide redundancy). Second, the intermixing of different strands of dna also provide more room for rapid genetic variation in subsequent generations. The redundancy tends to help moderate out the more catastrophic cases. This redundancy is especially important as the organism becomes more complex, as there are many more ways to break its structure.
As a result, any species that reproduces in such a fashion is more resistant to catastrophic changes, and is still more adaptable (due to the more rapid variations).
In other words, once life attained the ability to reproduce bisexually, that strain gained the best tools for long term survival (and further evolution), to the point that only the very simplest forms of life are still asexual.
Obviously, there's more to it than that, and we certainly don't know what the particular sequence of events or triggers were. And of course, it is a hypothesis of the natural selection theory of evolution.
Without getting too technical, here's the standard view from the natural selection viewpoint of evolution:
At some point, abiogenesis occurs (the point at which a particular molecular structure gains (at least some of) the characteristics of life (including the ability to make copies of itself).
As a result, there are soon, quite a large number of copies of this lifeform (all identical so far). Random mutation occurs. The vast majority of these mutations are harmful, and the lifeform becomes non-viable. Every once in a while, the mutation confers a non lethal difference in the characteristic of the lifeform. If this difference provides a survival (or reproductive) advantage to the lifeform (they can survive more easily in their environment, or they can reproduce much faster than the other forms), then they will become the dominant form in that environment.
Fast forward for a bit. We're now in an environment with more advanced life, but they still all reproduce via mitosis (direct copies). Another random mutation occurs that doesn't render the victim non-viable. Perhaps it now finds that it can initiate a copying process with another non mutated member of it's type. (Most likely, this was not a one-shot event). Sooner or later, the ability is gained to reproduce by mixing genetic information from two (or maybe even more) members.
This confers a survival and reproduction benefit in the following manner: If a lifeform reproduces by division only, any change in its structure will be passed on to all future copies. Sooner or later, the error rate will become lethal (or at least non-viable in the environment, or change to something else entirely).
Bisexual reproduction however, confers two primary reproductive benefits. First, the commingling of two sources of genetic information (which is primarily identical, with only small differences) provides a great deal of resistance to cascading mutation failure (multiple reproductive sources provide redundancy). Second, the intermixing of different strands of dna also provide more room for rapid genetic variation in subsequent generations. The redundancy tends to help moderate out the more catastrophic cases. This redundancy is especially important as the organism becomes more complex, as there are many more ways to break its structure.
As a result, any species that reproduces in such a fashion is more resistant to catastrophic changes, and is still more adaptable (due to the more rapid variations).
In other words, once life attained the ability to reproduce bisexually, that strain gained the best tools for long term survival (and further evolution), to the point that only the very simplest forms of life are still asexual.
Obviously, there's more to it than that, and we certainly don't know what the particular sequence of events or triggers were. And of course, it is a hypothesis of the natural selection theory of evolution.
Bangkokboy
Reply #518 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 3:08 PM
- paxx
paxx, i don't think that the real problem is people having trouble forging their own opinion. the issue is that they don't want their own or anyone else's opinion - they want THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH ( pardon the caps) which leads them to search for something above the level of opinion.
Reply #518 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 3:08 PM
| Apparently a lot of people have difficulty trying to forge their own opinion and they need a beleivable person to guide them, weather it's a priest or a doctor... |
paxx, i don't think that the real problem is people having trouble forging their own opinion. the issue is that they don't want their own or anyone else's opinion - they want THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH ( pardon the caps) which leads them to search for something above the level of opinion.
Stupendous Man
Reply #519 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 3:39 PM
Reply #519 Tuesday, October 7, 2003 3:39 PM
I just jumped in on this. I have held off looking into this thread as it is one that can be very touchy with some people. However, I want to provide a....viewpoint based on faith yet supported by some good old common sense. Aleatoric, you gave a general outline of evolutionary theory; but think about it this way:
If you take all the parts to assemble a cutting edge computer, put them in a cement mixer, turn it on and let it run for a billion years, will you have a cutting edge computer or just a bunch of busted components? Now, take those same components and an individual that has the training and skills, put him/her in a room and in a few hours they can come out with a completed and functioning computer that can do anything from a simple calculation to complex drawings etc.
Evolution is the cement mixer God is the technichan. [Jafo?]
All you have to do is look closely at the complexity and ariety of life and you see *intelligent design*, not the lucky happenings of random chance. The earth, for example is at just the right distance from the sun, further away too cold, closer to the sun, too hot. And we're talking about a narrow margin either way. it's late and I could expound further, but I'll watch and maybe have more to say later. Thanks for your time.
If you take all the parts to assemble a cutting edge computer, put them in a cement mixer, turn it on and let it run for a billion years, will you have a cutting edge computer or just a bunch of busted components? Now, take those same components and an individual that has the training and skills, put him/her in a room and in a few hours they can come out with a completed and functioning computer that can do anything from a simple calculation to complex drawings etc.
Evolution is the cement mixer God is the technichan. [Jafo?]
All you have to do is look closely at the complexity and ariety of life and you see *intelligent design*, not the lucky happenings of random chance. The earth, for example is at just the right distance from the sun, further away too cold, closer to the sun, too hot. And we're talking about a narrow margin either way. it's late and I could expound further, but I'll watch and maybe have more to say later. Thanks for your time.
Please login to comment and/or vote for this skin.
Welcome Guest! Please take the time to register with us.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
- Richer content, access to many features that are disabled for guests like commenting on the forums and downloading skins.
- Access to a great community, with a massive database of many, many areas of interest.
- Access to contests & subscription offers like exclusive emails.
- It's simple, and FREE!
|
|
Page 26 of 56 | |
|
|---|
Reply #501 Saturday, September 20, 2003 4:38 AM
what they said...