Creation vs. Evolution
Thursday, September 11, 2003 by grayhaze | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I thought I'd pre-empt this discussion before Kona's comment in the other thread sparked it off there. There is concrete proof that we evolved, but no proof that we were created. What's you're opinion, and why?
To quote Phoebe from Friends: "I guess the real question is who put those fossils there and why?"
To quote Phoebe from Friends: "I guess the real question is who put those fossils there and why?"
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Aleatoric
Reply #463 Thursday, September 18, 2003 6:00 PM
Reply #463 Thursday, September 18, 2003 6:00 PM
TheRatedPG,
(I seem to be responding to you quite a bit
Plenty of good points).
It seems that you're of the viewpoint that the creation of the universe and evolution are mutually exclusive concepts.
I have no trouble with a God that can create the universe to form from a big bang, following processes based on physical laws built into the system, and producing life that forms and grows through the process of evolution, producing us.
For me, my faith is in God as creator, father, fundamental force of life, etc. Science is a tool I use to examine and understand what goes on around me in the physical universe.
(I seem to be responding to you quite a bit
Plenty of good points).It seems that you're of the viewpoint that the creation of the universe and evolution are mutually exclusive concepts.
I have no trouble with a God that can create the universe to form from a big bang, following processes based on physical laws built into the system, and producing life that forms and grows through the process of evolution, producing us.
For me, my faith is in God as creator, father, fundamental force of life, etc. Science is a tool I use to examine and understand what goes on around me in the physical universe.
MadIce
Reply #464 Thursday, September 18, 2003 6:07 PM
Reply #464 Thursday, September 18, 2003 6:07 PM
Aleatoric: Do you view yourself more like an 18th century Rationalist?
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Rationalism: This was a movement in the 18th century Protestantism that abandoned the idea of Biblical inerrancy and adopted the belief that the Bible can be analyzed as a historical document. Some Rationalists assert that the existence of some form of deity can be proven by reason. Others see Rationalism and Atheism as synonyms.
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Rationalism: This was a movement in the 18th century Protestantism that abandoned the idea of Biblical inerrancy and adopted the belief that the Bible can be analyzed as a historical document. Some Rationalists assert that the existence of some form of deity can be proven by reason. Others see Rationalism and Atheism as synonyms.
MadIce
Reply #465 Thursday, September 18, 2003 6:09 PM
Reply #465 Thursday, September 18, 2003 6:09 PM
Or let me put it another way. Do you thing your God's existence can be proven?
Aleatoric
Reply #466 Thursday, September 18, 2003 6:37 PM
Reply #466 Thursday, September 18, 2003 6:37 PM
I guess to some degree that I could be categorized as a rationalist. I'm certainly not an atheist.
I do have a tendency to believe that anything that truly exists can be demonstrated empirically, and it can be argued that God does indeed fall in the category of being ultimately provable.
Even so, I don't think that even if we could prove His existence, that it would answer all that many questions. Even if we had clear, concrete proof of God, there would still remain many of the ethical questions that we currently face, such as 'why were we created?', and 'if God does care for his creation, why then is there pain and suffering?', among others.
I am most definitely not a biblical literalist. I think the Bible has inestimable value as a source of guidance and history. But I don't want to limit God by trying to hold Him within a book.
I do have a tendency to believe that anything that truly exists can be demonstrated empirically, and it can be argued that God does indeed fall in the category of being ultimately provable.
Even so, I don't think that even if we could prove His existence, that it would answer all that many questions. Even if we had clear, concrete proof of God, there would still remain many of the ethical questions that we currently face, such as 'why were we created?', and 'if God does care for his creation, why then is there pain and suffering?', among others.
I am most definitely not a biblical literalist. I think the Bible has inestimable value as a source of guidance and history. But I don't want to limit God by trying to hold Him within a book.
paxx
Reply #467 Thursday, September 18, 2003 7:30 PM
Reply #467 Thursday, September 18, 2003 7:30 PM
Kona, I don't deny the possibility that there is a God. As I've said already a few times, I don't believe there is a God, but I still admit there is a possibility that there is a God, somewhere, somehow. The thing I am sure about is that all religions are crap, manmade, with the sole purpose of taking advantage of gulable people. Cherish your God, but be independant about it. Don't rely on some other mortal who claims to speak the words of God, cause he's lying to you. Just let it be between you and your God.
Maybe there is a God. But if there is one indeed, I'm sure that it's the very same one for everybody. Buddha, Yaveh, Jehovah, God, Jesus, Allah, Zeus, Jupiter, ... If there is a God, they probably are all the same guy. Don't rely on a book written by man, just think for yourself and feel for yourself. Develop your own intimate relationship with your God.
I'm not anti-God. I know some very peacefull people whom I love dearly who have a beautifull relationship with their God. I personally don't believe in it. But I don't deny that their belief is beautiful. But religion is not beautiful. Religion is ugly. Religion is all about power, control and money.
The Rated PG
Reply #468 Thursday, September 18, 2003 7:44 PM
‘Earthquake Claims 10,000 in India.’ ‘Thousands Perish in Bangladesh’s Flood.’ Tragedy is constantly in the news, including large-scale, ‘senseless’ disasters that snuff out the lives of thousands, such as the terrorist attacks on New York’s World Trade Center. Nor is tragedy confined to today—it wasn’t too long ago that an evil regime wiped out 6 million Jews and many others. In addition to the headline events, each of us suffers pain at one time or another—illness, headaches, accidents and death. It’s not surprising, when the burdens become too great, that people cry out to God in anguish, ‘Why don’t you do anything? Don’t you care?’
How can an all-powerful, loving God allow suffering?
As the shock of each traumatic event subsides, people begin asking why such things occur. Reading about past wars or visiting memorials like the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., inevitably raises the same question, ‘How can there be a loving God controlling the universe in the light of such death and suffering?’How can an all-powerful, loving God allow suffering?
interesting read beware it is long http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/death_suffering.asp?vPrint=1
Reply #468 Thursday, September 18, 2003 7:44 PM
| and 'if God does care for his creation, why then is there pain and suffering?', |
‘Earthquake Claims 10,000 in India.’ ‘Thousands Perish in Bangladesh’s Flood.’ Tragedy is constantly in the news, including large-scale, ‘senseless’ disasters that snuff out the lives of thousands, such as the terrorist attacks on New York’s World Trade Center. Nor is tragedy confined to today—it wasn’t too long ago that an evil regime wiped out 6 million Jews and many others. In addition to the headline events, each of us suffers pain at one time or another—illness, headaches, accidents and death. It’s not surprising, when the burdens become too great, that people cry out to God in anguish, ‘Why don’t you do anything? Don’t you care?’
How can an all-powerful, loving God allow suffering?
As the shock of each traumatic event subsides, people begin asking why such things occur. Reading about past wars or visiting memorials like the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., inevitably raises the same question, ‘How can there be a loving God controlling the universe in the light of such death and suffering?’How can an all-powerful, loving God allow suffering?
interesting read beware it is long http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/death_suffering.asp?vPrint=1
kona0197
Reply #469 Thursday, September 18, 2003 7:46 PM
population control.
Reply #469 Thursday, September 18, 2003 7:46 PM
| How can an all-powerful, loving God allow suffering? |
population control.
Aleatoric
Reply #470 Thursday, September 18, 2003 8:03 PM
Reply #470 Thursday, September 18, 2003 8:03 PM
Actually, I have my own thoughts about those questions, and I think that there's a greater purpose than the simple accounting of numbers. I truly believe that those kind of events are necessary for our overall growth as intelligent beings.
My point was that even if God came to earth, waved at us, and said 'Here I am!', and then left, those questions would still remain.
Merely proving the existence of God (assuming it's even possible to do so), wouldn't necessarily solve everything else.
My point was that even if God came to earth, waved at us, and said 'Here I am!', and then left, those questions would still remain.
Merely proving the existence of God (assuming it's even possible to do so), wouldn't necessarily solve everything else.
The Rated PG
Reply #471 Thursday, September 18, 2003 8:11 PM
It is true that man has used religion for political gain. Hitler had "God with us" engraved on the belts of Nazi soldiers. America said, "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition." The law may even allow you to start the Christian Nazi Party, if you so desire. You can become a "reverend" for a few dollars through the tabloid classifieds and then further your political agenda with the world's blessing, no matter how much it smears the name of Christ. If Jesus told His followers to love their enemies, and someone puts a knife into someone's back in the name of Christianity, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that something isn't quite right. If we human beings can detect it, how much more will God? He will deal with it on Judgment Day.
Reply #471 Thursday, September 18, 2003 8:11 PM
| The thing I am sure about is that all religions are crap, manmade, with the sole purpose of taking advantage of gulable people |
| But religion is not beautiful. Religion is ugly. Religion is all about power, control and money. |
It is true that man has used religion for political gain. Hitler had "God with us" engraved on the belts of Nazi soldiers. America said, "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition." The law may even allow you to start the Christian Nazi Party, if you so desire. You can become a "reverend" for a few dollars through the tabloid classifieds and then further your political agenda with the world's blessing, no matter how much it smears the name of Christ. If Jesus told His followers to love their enemies, and someone puts a knife into someone's back in the name of Christianity, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that something isn't quite right. If we human beings can detect it, how much more will God? He will deal with it on Judgment Day.
Aleatoric
Reply #472 Thursday, September 18, 2003 8:30 PM
Reply #472 Thursday, September 18, 2003 8:30 PM
TheRatedPG,
Your link was interesting. I personally have a problem with the idea that we are made to suffer as punishment for the sin of Adam. A just God isn't going to blame (or punish) the son for the sins of the father.
Here's another religious perspective on that concept:
http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs07.htm
Your link was interesting. I personally have a problem with the idea that we are made to suffer as punishment for the sin of Adam. A just God isn't going to blame (or punish) the son for the sins of the father.
Here's another religious perspective on that concept:
http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs07.htm
Chris TH
Reply #474 Thursday, September 18, 2003 10:07 PM
Reply #474 Thursday, September 18, 2003 10:07 PM
http://aca.mq.edu.au/PaulDavies/Multiverse_StanfordUniv_March2003.pdf
Many other interesting links by this scientist.
It is possible to get highly intricate order out of chaos under the right conditions - is life the spreme strange attractor?
Many other interesting links by this scientist.
It is possible to get highly intricate order out of chaos under the right conditions - is life the spreme strange attractor?
The Rated PG
Reply #475 Thursday, September 18, 2003 10:48 PM
Reply #475 Thursday, September 18, 2003 10:48 PM
by the way chris TH. When providing links, it is better to provide a page rather than an instant download. That way people who are not familiar with computers are not confused or possibilities of downloading virus. 
Thanks though
Thanks though
The Rated PG
Reply #476 Thursday, September 18, 2003 11:32 PM
you are right in thinking that, however the only thing as a result of the first sin was the inevitablity of death. We are not being punished for what Adam did(sin)(Eve did it first remember) Adam could have told Eve no. His choice. (It boggles the mind that it was only one rule and we couldn't even keep from not doing that) We ourselves bear full responsibility for our own decisions to sin. And all evil in the universe emanates from the afteraffects of what we have chosen to do/done. Childlike a little fib, a little white lie, that get's bigger and bigger with each lie that is told to cover the other up. Speaking of children, unborn, babies, and those unable to intellectually understand. They have the ability to sin just as Adam or anyone else, if they die they're not punished because of What their parents did? Scripture is clear that children and the unborn have original sin-including both the propensity to sin as well as the inherent guilt of original sin. But could it be that somehow Christ's atonement did pay for the guilt for these helpless ones throughout all time? Yes, and therefore it is a credible assumption that a child who dies at an age too young to have made a conscious, willful rejection of Jesus Christ will be taken free from punishment to heaven.
Reply #476 Thursday, September 18, 2003 11:32 PM
| #472 by Aleatoric - 9/18/2003 8:30:04 PM |
| I personally have a problem with the idea that we are made to suffer as punishment for the sin of Adam. A just God isn't going to blame (or punish) the son for the sins of the father. |
you are right in thinking that, however the only thing as a result of the first sin was the inevitablity of death. We are not being punished for what Adam did(sin)(Eve did it first remember) Adam could have told Eve no. His choice. (It boggles the mind that it was only one rule and we couldn't even keep from not doing that) We ourselves bear full responsibility for our own decisions to sin. And all evil in the universe emanates from the afteraffects of what we have chosen to do/done. Childlike a little fib, a little white lie, that get's bigger and bigger with each lie that is told to cover the other up. Speaking of children, unborn, babies, and those unable to intellectually understand. They have the ability to sin just as Adam or anyone else, if they die they're not punished because of What their parents did? Scripture is clear that children and the unborn have original sin-including both the propensity to sin as well as the inherent guilt of original sin. But could it be that somehow Christ's atonement did pay for the guilt for these helpless ones throughout all time? Yes, and therefore it is a credible assumption that a child who dies at an age too young to have made a conscious, willful rejection of Jesus Christ will be taken free from punishment to heaven.
joetheblow
Reply #477 Friday, September 19, 2003 12:04 AM
Maybe it didn't work. Being born with it would just make it too easy.
a book is one way. just one. you can look at a rock, water, mules, peaches, trees, grapes, and so on and get the same infomation.
I just confused myself.
Reply #477 Friday, September 19, 2003 12:04 AM
| If "God" is so great, why would he need to give us a book to tell us how to live? Wouldn't we be born with such knowledge? Why would we have to be taught about "God". The spirituality of native American Indians is amazing, and they don't require a "book". *But* they do have a lot of folklore that is handed down from generation to generation (If you put that folklore in a book, you would have the equivalent of the bible, but in Native American Indian terms.) |
Maybe it didn't work. Being born with it would just make it too easy.
a book is one way. just one. you can look at a rock, water, mules, peaches, trees, grapes, and so on and get the same infomation.
I just confused myself.
MadIce
Reply #478 Friday, September 19, 2003 6:03 AM
Reply #478 Friday, September 19, 2003 6:03 AM
While surfing the web I found an interesting web page which you may find interesting.
David Bohm was a friend of Einstein, worked with Oppenheimer, worked at the Radiation Laboratory during WW2 and wrote books like "Quantum Theory", "Causality and Chance in Modern Physics" and "The Special Theory of Relativity". In short he was one of the most brilliant theoretical physicists of our era. He not only had a great interest in quantum mechanics, but also in philosophy. In his later work this became more and more prominent. Bohm was actually very involved in matters like truth, order, existence and eternity. And he interconnected matters like these in his other scientific work.
Have a look at http://www.bbk.ac.uk/lib/bohm.html .
David Bohm was a friend of Einstein, worked with Oppenheimer, worked at the Radiation Laboratory during WW2 and wrote books like "Quantum Theory", "Causality and Chance in Modern Physics" and "The Special Theory of Relativity". In short he was one of the most brilliant theoretical physicists of our era. He not only had a great interest in quantum mechanics, but also in philosophy. In his later work this became more and more prominent. Bohm was actually very involved in matters like truth, order, existence and eternity. And he interconnected matters like these in his other scientific work.
Have a look at http://www.bbk.ac.uk/lib/bohm.html .
Jafo
Reply #479 Friday, September 19, 2003 8:15 AM
Reply #479 Friday, September 19, 2003 8:15 AM
Kona....if 'God' loved me as much as you say he loves you, he would have made you a better speller..... 
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Reply #461 Thursday, September 18, 2003 5:54 PM
There have been a few points where that's true, but, by and large, this has been much more civil overall than other threads of this type that I have seen.
I think, that to a large degree, everyone on this site seems to have a basic level of respect for each other that isn't always evidenced on other sites I've seen.