any advice on tracking down a winXP crash problem?
Friday, June 27, 2003 by feline | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
i am on the verge of going into hibernation, and stopping using my computer. that, or a total reformat.
my home machine (winXP pro) has two types of crash. both happen at complete random, and i can find no pattern or cause for these crashes.
in type 1 the machine experiences a hard lock. the screen just freezes, the mouse stops working, and the keyboard caps lock light no longer changes. the only option at this point is a hard reset >
in type 2 the machine spontaneously reboots.
both have happened to me already today.
now for the details:
i have run anti-virus and spyware checks, and found nothing.
i have a nvidia gforce2 MX 64meg graphics card, with the 40.72 drivers. these are not the most recent, but they are the most recent i have found where DVD playback still works.
i thought i saw a brief flash of blue when the machine spontaneously rebooted today, so it occurred to me i may have had a blue screen of death. so, i have just turned off the "automatically restart" option in system settings for dealing with a system failure. if i do get a blue screen of death, maybe it will give me some clues as to the possible root of the problem.
the only pattern i can provide is that the spontaneous reboots only happen when i am off line (56k modem, dial up connection) and the hard locks only happen when i am online.
i have been unable to find anything even close to helpful in the system event logs
i thought i had a pattern to the online hard locks, in that for every one of them microsoft messenger (the one bundled into winXP, msmsgs.exe) was always running. one night i had 3 hard locks in 3 hours with this program running *sob*
however, earlier tonight, online again, i had another hard lock without this program running.
i am under the impression that no application should be able to do this to my machine. since i have no evidence there is a hardware problem (and i don't really have the spending money to buy a whole new PC on the off chance) a driver problem seems possible. however, this doesn't get me very far.
knowing in the back of your mind that at any moment any and all work i am doing, and any conversations i am having, can be snatched away from me with no cause or notice, this is really starting to get to me. it is taking the fun out of using my computer
my home machine (winXP pro) has two types of crash. both happen at complete random, and i can find no pattern or cause for these crashes.
in type 1 the machine experiences a hard lock. the screen just freezes, the mouse stops working, and the keyboard caps lock light no longer changes. the only option at this point is a hard reset >
in type 2 the machine spontaneously reboots.
both have happened to me already today.
now for the details:
i have run anti-virus and spyware checks, and found nothing.
i have a nvidia gforce2 MX 64meg graphics card, with the 40.72 drivers. these are not the most recent, but they are the most recent i have found where DVD playback still works.
i thought i saw a brief flash of blue when the machine spontaneously rebooted today, so it occurred to me i may have had a blue screen of death. so, i have just turned off the "automatically restart" option in system settings for dealing with a system failure. if i do get a blue screen of death, maybe it will give me some clues as to the possible root of the problem.
the only pattern i can provide is that the spontaneous reboots only happen when i am off line (56k modem, dial up connection) and the hard locks only happen when i am online.
i have been unable to find anything even close to helpful in the system event logs
i thought i had a pattern to the online hard locks, in that for every one of them microsoft messenger (the one bundled into winXP, msmsgs.exe) was always running. one night i had 3 hard locks in 3 hours with this program running *sob*
however, earlier tonight, online again, i had another hard lock without this program running.
i am under the impression that no application should be able to do this to my machine. since i have no evidence there is a hardware problem (and i don't really have the spending money to buy a whole new PC on the off chance) a driver problem seems possible. however, this doesn't get me very far.
knowing in the back of your mind that at any moment any and all work i am doing, and any conversations i am having, can be snatched away from me with no cause or notice, this is really starting to get to me. it is taking the fun out of using my computer
 |
|
Page 4 of 7 | |
|
|---|
feline
Reply #62 Saturday, July 5, 2003 1:44 PM
*sigh* the current problem is that i:
* formatted
* installed a nice clean winXP pro
* did not install a single driver
* it is useless
before that, i installed the latest nvidia drivers, only to find that they nuked my ability to play DVD's. so, i moved to some slightly older nvidia drivers, and ended up with a totally unstable machine. please note that there may be no connection here between the nvidia drivers and the instability.
good answer, but it isnt a common factor
since it is external, it is turned off when not in use. and many of the crashes have happened when it is turned off.
also, i can send email and surf the web, even post here, with that very modem and my old machine.
IPlural, hardware checking program has now been running for just over 7 hours. the first 5 min checked some hardware, then it started a HD scan. it is going to be scanning the HD for many hours yet. and so far no sign of any problems.
Reply #62 Saturday, July 5, 2003 1:44 PM
| c714 - Have you updated any drivers lately? |
*sigh* the current problem is that i:
* formatted
* installed a nice clean winXP pro
* did not install a single driver
* it is useless
before that, i installed the latest nvidia drivers, only to find that they nuked my ability to play DVD's. so, i moved to some slightly older nvidia drivers, and ended up with a totally unstable machine. please note that there may be no connection here between the nvidia drivers and the instability.
| Fuzzy Logic - Dump the modem... That seems to be the common denominator. |
good answer, but it isnt a common factor
since it is external, it is turned off when not in use. and many of the crashes have happened when it is turned off.
also, i can send email and surf the web, even post here, with that very modem and my old machine.
IPlural, hardware checking program has now been running for just over 7 hours. the first 5 min checked some hardware, then it started a HD scan. it is going to be scanning the HD for many hours yet. and so far no sign of any problems.
IPlural
Reply #63 Saturday, July 5, 2003 6:30 PM
Reply #63 Saturday, July 5, 2003 6:30 PM
yeah, large drives do that, it does suck but it is time well spent for sanities sake.
If all comes out clean, then record the BISO/CMOS configuration for you Comports and PCI slots. At least, and then run Windows and see what your addon cards and drivers are set to by Windows Plug and Play, sometimes they do not jive and it can cause problem.
You also might want to make sure you have updated the Chip set Drivers for your specific motherboard, such as the newest release of the VIA 4 in 1 drivers.
My ASUS A7V motherboard used to puke on Win2k and WinXP just like your's is doing now. Once I removed the Promise driver and loaded the VIA 4 in 1, all problems went away.
Wish y'all lived close or I had it here at the house so it would be less a guessing game.
here's wishing you luck!
If all comes out clean, then record the BISO/CMOS configuration for you Comports and PCI slots. At least, and then run Windows and see what your addon cards and drivers are set to by Windows Plug and Play, sometimes they do not jive and it can cause problem.
You also might want to make sure you have updated the Chip set Drivers for your specific motherboard, such as the newest release of the VIA 4 in 1 drivers.
My ASUS A7V motherboard used to puke on Win2k and WinXP just like your's is doing now. Once I removed the Promise driver and loaded the VIA 4 in 1, all problems went away.
Wish y'all lived close or I had it here at the house so it would be less a guessing game.
here's wishing you luck!
kona0197
Reply #64 Saturday, July 5, 2003 6:35 PM
Reply #64 Saturday, July 5, 2003 6:35 PM
the only thing i can suggest is that it might be a bad mobo.
Anthony R
Reply #65 Saturday, July 5, 2003 9:37 PM
Reply #65 Saturday, July 5, 2003 9:37 PM
It is starting to sound like a voodoo curse.... or some type of demonic possession...Your computer has been pin struck and at this point I can only suggest opening yellow pages and finding a shaman or an exorcist.
Anthony R
Reply #66 Saturday, July 5, 2003 9:44 PM
Reply #66 Saturday, July 5, 2003 9:44 PM
*The power of christ compel you*
Is it bad if holy water burns me?
Is it bad if holy water burns me?
feline
Reply #67 Sunday, July 6, 2003 7:58 AM
Reply #67 Sunday, July 6, 2003 7:58 AM
*deep sigh*
well, after 11 1/2 hours the hardware scan finished. 5 minutes checking the PC, and the rest of the time checking the HD. it came up clean. it didnt report a single problem!
so, if for the moment i ignore the posibility of a hardware problem with the messed up modem, i am looking at:
* winXP was dead in the water since it was totally unstable
* win98 has problems booting
now, once before winXP was dead in the water, with terminal instability. that was caused by the 28.xx (from memory) nvidia drivers. based on similar problems frogboy was having, that seemed to be due to an interaction problem between the video drivers and the via motherboard bios.
so, it is possible that having to move from one nvidia (the latest) to an older one (since that was the only way to make DVD's work) totally f***** winXP, causing all the instability problems.
and win98, well, that went through 3 different sets of nvidia drivers while i tried to find a set that actually allowed me to watch my DVD's. i mean, surely i cannot blame nvidia for this, after all, why on earth would i actually want to watch any of the DVD's i have gone out and purchased??? (insert unbelivably rude and insulting comment here)
it was this logic that lead to the format.
however, how do i explain the fact that the modem doesnt allow me to send email? all right, perhaps even with all the checking the setup is wrong. however, this does not explain why i was unable to log into wincustomize, and why i was unable to post to another board with this modem!!!
this modem has been flawlessly auto detected in win98, winNT 4 workstation, win2k and winXP. and until this format it has always worked flawlessly.
*sigh* and i am posting this with the very same modem. so, either the clean install of winXP is already f*****, despite the fact i havent done anything with it, or there is a hardware problem. and if there is a hardware problem why does the hardware scanning program give my machine a clean bill of health?
feline starts to wonder if imersing my main PC in several gallons of holy water would help
well, after 11 1/2 hours the hardware scan finished. 5 minutes checking the PC, and the rest of the time checking the HD. it came up clean. it didnt report a single problem!
so, if for the moment i ignore the posibility of a hardware problem with the messed up modem, i am looking at:
* winXP was dead in the water since it was totally unstable
* win98 has problems booting
now, once before winXP was dead in the water, with terminal instability. that was caused by the 28.xx (from memory) nvidia drivers. based on similar problems frogboy was having, that seemed to be due to an interaction problem between the video drivers and the via motherboard bios.
so, it is possible that having to move from one nvidia (the latest) to an older one (since that was the only way to make DVD's work) totally f***** winXP, causing all the instability problems.
and win98, well, that went through 3 different sets of nvidia drivers while i tried to find a set that actually allowed me to watch my DVD's. i mean, surely i cannot blame nvidia for this, after all, why on earth would i actually want to watch any of the DVD's i have gone out and purchased??? (insert unbelivably rude and insulting comment here)
it was this logic that lead to the format.
however, how do i explain the fact that the modem doesnt allow me to send email? all right, perhaps even with all the checking the setup is wrong. however, this does not explain why i was unable to log into wincustomize, and why i was unable to post to another board with this modem!!!
this modem has been flawlessly auto detected in win98, winNT 4 workstation, win2k and winXP. and until this format it has always worked flawlessly.
*sigh* and i am posting this with the very same modem. so, either the clean install of winXP is already f*****, despite the fact i havent done anything with it, or there is a hardware problem. and if there is a hardware problem why does the hardware scanning program give my machine a clean bill of health?
feline starts to wonder if imersing my main PC in several gallons of holy water would help
feline
Reply #68 Sunday, July 6, 2003 8:01 AM
Reply #68 Sunday, July 6, 2003 8:01 AM
oh yes, before anyone mentions the bios vs nvidia drivers problem, i have already flashed my bios. i did that about a month ago, just after i got over the HD crash.
with the old bios i was getting memory access errors reported in the system event logs. the new bios has fixed that problem.
with the old bios i was getting memory access errors reported in the system event logs. the new bios has fixed that problem.
IPlural
Reply #69 Sunday, July 6, 2003 8:50 AM
Reply #69 Sunday, July 6, 2003 8:50 AM
there is a driver called " 4 in 1 " that you load into WIndowsXP. It handles the VIA buse controller, you might want to install or update to the newest one. This out right fixed my problems with Windows 2000 and Windows XP last year.
VIARena web site
http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=267
wish this computer would boot up giggling or something one of these times and flash just kidding on the screen or something. 
VIARena web site
http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=267
wish this computer would boot up giggling or something one of these times and flash just kidding on the screen or something. 
c242
Reply #70 Sunday, July 6, 2003 8:53 AM
Reply #70 Sunday, July 6, 2003 8:53 AM
c714 ??? 
- Sorry feline... 
Maybe it is the port and therefore a mainboard error that is causing Your modem-problems, too ? Just guessing further on. At the moment I tend to bet that it is the board.
- Sorry feline... 
Maybe it is the port and therefore a mainboard error that is causing Your modem-problems, too ? Just guessing further on. At the moment I tend to bet that it is the board.
feline
Reply #71 Sunday, July 6, 2003 9:02 AM
yep, i already have it.
before the HD crash i had a problem with slow to unwatably slow DVD playback on some DVD's. the most extreme case of this was "the usual suspects", which was just unwatchable. the system was sitting at 100% CPU usage, and it wasnt enough.
it turned out i needed to install the 4in1 drivers to make this work.
so, bottom line, previously the modem worked fine without the 4in1 drivers. however, i am considering applying them soon to see if it makes any difference. perhaps i will do that tonight.
Reply #71 Sunday, July 6, 2003 9:02 AM
| IPlural - there is a driver called " 4 in 1 " that you load into WIndowsXP. |
yep, i already have it.
before the HD crash i had a problem with slow to unwatably slow DVD playback on some DVD's. the most extreme case of this was "the usual suspects", which was just unwatchable. the system was sitting at 100% CPU usage, and it wasnt enough.
it turned out i needed to install the 4in1 drivers to make this work.
so, bottom line, previously the modem worked fine without the 4in1 drivers. however, i am considering applying them soon to see if it makes any difference. perhaps i will do that tonight.
werewolf
Reply #72 Sunday, July 6, 2003 9:04 AM
Reply #72 Sunday, July 6, 2003 9:04 AM
the 4in1's are a must install after a clean OS install. That's just my humble opinion though
feline
Reply #73 Sunday, July 6, 2003 1:41 PM
Reply #73 Sunday, July 6, 2003 1:41 PM
and another experiment bites the dust.
following the chain of thought about 4in1 drivers, i tried them. the winXP install is as clean as it is going to get. one installed program only, PowerDesk5. no new drivers installed.
so, i deleted the modem in control panel -> phone and modems
then i rebooted to be safe
then i installed the 4in1 drivers
which required a reboot, which was fine with me
so, just after the restart i turned on the modem, so it would be auto detected.
i gave windows a good 5 minutes to finish autodetecting my modem. then i went on line. and can you guess the result? yep, unable to load wincustomize, unable to send email. i had messed up the outlook express settings for downloading email deliberately to avoid splitting my email across 2 machines.
since this is the same behavour as last time, i didnt bother checking to see if i could connect to other sites, or download things.
i am fairly sure i was connected to the net, based on the pattern of lights on the front of the modem.
so, what is going on? it is as if the format "broke" COM1 at the hard ware level, but only broke it enough so that i cannot send email and load some sites. other things can be downloaded *sigh*
you know, i am reaching a state of almost zen calm over this, while underneath the calm layer, all manor of stress, upset and mayhem is boiling away. basically, i have reached the point of accepting that there is probably nothing what so ever i can do to fix my machine, and that some form of major hardware transplant (along with the associated cost) is going to be required.
following the chain of thought about 4in1 drivers, i tried them. the winXP install is as clean as it is going to get. one installed program only, PowerDesk5. no new drivers installed.
so, i deleted the modem in control panel -> phone and modems
then i rebooted to be safe
then i installed the 4in1 drivers
which required a reboot, which was fine with me
so, just after the restart i turned on the modem, so it would be auto detected.
i gave windows a good 5 minutes to finish autodetecting my modem. then i went on line. and can you guess the result? yep, unable to load wincustomize, unable to send email. i had messed up the outlook express settings for downloading email deliberately to avoid splitting my email across 2 machines.
since this is the same behavour as last time, i didnt bother checking to see if i could connect to other sites, or download things.
i am fairly sure i was connected to the net, based on the pattern of lights on the front of the modem.
so, what is going on? it is as if the format "broke" COM1 at the hard ware level, but only broke it enough so that i cannot send email and load some sites. other things can be downloaded *sigh*
you know, i am reaching a state of almost zen calm over this, while underneath the calm layer, all manor of stress, upset and mayhem is boiling away. basically, i have reached the point of accepting that there is probably nothing what so ever i can do to fix my machine, and that some form of major hardware transplant (along with the associated cost) is going to be required.
yrag2
Reply #74 Sunday, July 6, 2003 2:25 PM
Reply #74 Sunday, July 6, 2003 2:25 PM
feline...this is beginning to remind me of the Twilight Zone. First of all, forget about the modem. If I've got this right, it appears to work until you try e-mail. Trust me in that the modem doesn't know whether it's sending e-mail or flowers. (they're just not that smart). Everything, when tested separately, comes up with a clean bill of health. Together, it's crash time. I will assume that you got the make of your Mobo from your computer guy so you could flash it. I will also assume that it is a Via chip set board. The updated Via drivers, as are all, usually only address problems with on-board components (audio, USB, etc). There are, however, AGP drivers that can make or break a a perfectly good set-up. Might I suggest you keep the 4.48 drivers (except AGP) installed, but load up an older AGP driver. http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=300#old . Pick one with a date that was around when this machine DID work. (it did work, didn't it?). Run the 4.48 setup and when it gives the option to install/un-install AGP driver, un-install it. Run your older AGP driver setup and install it.
We're going to get this......it's now a mission
We're going to get this......it's now a mission
IPlural
Reply #75 Sunday, July 6, 2003 2:39 PM
Reply #75 Sunday, July 6, 2003 2:39 PM
mmm, something to consider.
www,modemhelp.org
http://www.modemhelp.org/
www,modemhelp.org
http://www.modemhelp.org/
Jafo
Reply #76 Sunday, July 6, 2003 8:11 PM
Reply #76 Sunday, July 6, 2003 8:11 PM
feline...I'm a Powerdesk Pro 5 user....have used Powerdesk for Eons....as many LiteSTEPpers do....you may be having 'issues' with the built-in viewer 'Quickview'.....be sure to check for recent updates [though there hasn't been any for quite a while....and I question Pdesk's true compatability with XP].
In fact, last system lockups that I have had were Powerdesk related.....usually the process pdexplo.exe would refuse to die...
Other than that, I'd be questioning 2 other things....just how 'good' your BIOS flashing really was...and, as kona mentioned earlier...your mobo itself.....'dry joints' do still happen.....though these days it's more likely to be actual board flexing breaking delicate printed circuits.
Possible verification there?....try a different OS....and eliminate XP as the culprit...
kona0197
Reply #77 Sunday, July 6, 2003 10:18 PM
I saw that problem when I cracked a new mobo when installing the fan/heatsink on a celeron board. Some boards are really cheap and flexy.
Hey feline i would just get a new mobo. They are so cheap these days you could pick up one on ebay for next to nothing.
Reply #77 Sunday, July 6, 2003 10:18 PM
| though these days it's more likely to be actual board flexing breaking delicate printed circuits. |
I saw that problem when I cracked a new mobo when installing the fan/heatsink on a celeron board. Some boards are really cheap and flexy.
Hey feline i would just get a new mobo. They are so cheap these days you could pick up one on ebay for next to nothing.
bordfryr
Reply #78 Monday, July 7, 2003 3:00 AM
Reply #78 Monday, July 7, 2003 3:00 AM
Given the current circumstances, I would recommend staying away from Ebay. I bought a "new" mobo from there and it was doa. Really should buy from a reputable seller that has a warranty. At least this time so poor Feline can get this critter fixed.
kona0197
Reply #79 Monday, July 7, 2003 9:40 AM
Reply #79 Monday, July 7, 2003 9:40 AM
Well then I personally recommend 2 of my favorites. They have NEVER given me any problems.
For a AMD solution:
http://shop4.outpost.com/product/3557434
For a Intel Solution:
http://shop4.outpost.com/product/3485363
These mobos rock.
For a AMD solution:
http://shop4.outpost.com/product/3557434
For a Intel Solution:
http://shop4.outpost.com/product/3485363
These mobos rock.
Please login to comment and/or vote for this skin.
Welcome Guest! Please take the time to register with us.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
- Richer content, access to many features that are disabled for guests like commenting on the forums and downloading skins.
- Access to a great community, with a massive database of many, many areas of interest.
- Access to contests & subscription offers like exclusive emails.
- It's simple, and FREE!
|
|
Page 4 of 7 | |
|
|---|
Reply #61 Friday, July 4, 2003 8:16 PM
besides you have enough being thrown at you all at one time. good luck with it
If all else fails, I would/do suggest a lock step approach.
remove hardware after post, booting into diagnostics and test, all works out fine.
boot into windows with the creation of a boot.log, check the log for anything odd, might find the problem there.
once in windows, check known psychical hardware resources as set on the card/motherboard to make sure Windows plug and play didn't decide to change something it should have left alone, set either Windows device resources to reflect actual hardware resources or vise versa as needed.
Check drivers for known issues.
check software configuration.
when finished and system is up and running, you not only have a working system, but you have a working map of your hardware and the resources that are assigned to system hardware/drivers outside and inside windows.
Later when or if you run into a problem with new hardware, or you are reading Known Issues for some software application and it says so and so card set to such and such resources is a known conflict, you will probably remember, hey thats where such and such card is set to, so problem resolution is much faster.
[Message Edited]