This Is Rediculous
Wednesday, June 18, 2003 by MindlessPuppet | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
In the past 24 hours I've scrapped 2 skins, which I have entirely planned out. For those of you who know who I am, I took a nice long break from skinning. I start skinning again, only to find out that the original issues I had with WindowBlinds still exist, I mean sure they've add more; shell styles, more XP support, ect. But it seems as they haven't improved too much other than performance. I wonder if the programmers even attempt to skin themselves... Over a year ago I felt that I had maxed out the abilities of windowblinds, and sadly it still seems this way.
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Styl-X Design
Reply #2 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 3:29 PM
@ madice
Feel how ever you wan't to feel about it, but it sure makes your desktop looks awesome
Reply #2 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 3:29 PM
@ madiceFeel how ever you wan't to feel about it, but it sure makes your desktop looks awesome
MindlessPuppet
Reply #3 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 3:53 PM
Reply #3 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 3:53 PM
In reply to Madice, I'm not here for support. Simply here to vent about problems and limitations in the software. In reply to Styl, sure it makes your desktop look cool, but there only so much one can do. Essentially all skins look and function the same, not because of untalented skin authors, but because of a rediculous number of limitations and bugs in the software.
grayhaze
Reply #6 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 4:09 PM
Reply #6 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 4:09 PM
The key to skinning is knowing the limitations and working around them. There's very little I've wanted to do with WindowBlinds that I haven't eventually found a way to do. Perhaps your expectations are just a little too high?
MindlessPuppet
Reply #7 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 4:19 PM
Reply #7 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 4:19 PM
In response to grayhaze; I don't think they are getting too high, a skin I was trying to work out had the titlebar on the bottom. And it's incredible what problems arise from something so simple. Also transparency in borders seems to cause alot of design problems to. I mean, I've worked my way through most limitations I've found, but it's to the point where im using more than 40 buttons in the borders to create proper layering. Then there's little things, for example there is no "move window" action for buttons. It just feels that the design capability hasn't improved at all in the past two years.
mossedmoon
Reply #8 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:13 PM
Reply #8 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:13 PM
Well MP, I'm gonna have to agree with you, but I still just recently renewed my Object Desktop again, as I will next year (again). The WB4 improvements allow for skinning other 'areas' of the os but not the actual windows interface. I do see the WB effort moving along in nicely taken steps, not ungainly leaps. Paitience is, afterall, a virtue. Let me also say you're skins are innovative and exceptionally artistic, so it seems you're doing pretty good at playing the hand you're delt...
Aqua.
Reply #9 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:35 PM
Reply #9 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:35 PM
Puppet, would you kindly list all of the things you want to do that cannot currently be done? Would you also list the things you can do, but only in a very roundabout way?
mossedmoon
Reply #10 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:41 PM
Reply #10 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:41 PM
Swell idea, Aqua, although a little too Socratic...
Sylva
Reply #11 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 6:04 PM
Reply #11 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 6:04 PM
what exactly is the problem you are having with the bottom titlebar and the transparency? It seem to me maybe you might be overlooking the simpler solutions. Any problems I have come across so far have been quite easy to work around once the time is taken to look at things in a less complicated way.
Most of it is really quite simple. Sometimes, it's actually too simple to see it the first few times you look at it, but it's right in front of you.
Most of it is really quite simple. Sometimes, it's actually too simple to see it the first few times you look at it, but it's right in front of you.
MindlessPuppet
Reply #12 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 6:22 PM
Reply #12 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 6:22 PM
The bottom title bar has problems with vertical font position.
Also right aligned titles have clipping problems
the bottom title bar also causes problems with MANY programs.
Transparency had problems when it overlaps other sections, which leads you to need to use and ungodly amount of buttons.
Still no functionality for middle buttons.
should be a way to set minimum windows size, for those of use who put close on the right side, a la Apple.
No anti-aliasing for borders.
Alpha transparency for border buttons doesn't work properly in most cases.
The list goes on. Those are all problems with the current features. I could write pages on features it's missing. As I said the base of the program hasn't really changed too much in the past 2 years. In my personal opinion they need to just revamp the entire window skinning part of windowblinds, it was great in its day but it's due for a heavy update. It just seems skinning of other apps; WinAmp, Sonique, Media Player, ect ect have evolved so much, while windowblinds still lacks many fundamental features.
[Message Edited]
Also right aligned titles have clipping problems
the bottom title bar also causes problems with MANY programs.
Transparency had problems when it overlaps other sections, which leads you to need to use and ungodly amount of buttons.
Still no functionality for middle buttons.
should be a way to set minimum windows size, for those of use who put close on the right side, a la Apple.
No anti-aliasing for borders.
Alpha transparency for border buttons doesn't work properly in most cases.
The list goes on. Those are all problems with the current features. I could write pages on features it's missing. As I said the base of the program hasn't really changed too much in the past 2 years. In my personal opinion they need to just revamp the entire window skinning part of windowblinds, it was great in its day but it's due for a heavy update. It just seems skinning of other apps; WinAmp, Sonique, Media Player, ect ect have evolved so much, while windowblinds still lacks many fundamental features.
[Message Edited]
Sylva
Reply #13 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 6:36 PM
Reply #13 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 6:36 PM
It seems to me, after hearing discussions of a few of those problems, that a lot of those features may have actually been sacrificed for speed. Not neccessarily a bad thing in my opinion.
And as far as Winamp, sonique and media player go, their main purposes are not to be square blocks that show some form of data or another. they are mainly used to play music. And if you look at the video wondows in WA and WMP, they're basically square boxes, just like windows. There really is no way to compare a program that modifies the borders of several types of programs to a program made for one specific purpose that does not need to follow the rules of any other programs.
With the transparency overlapping, do you mean on rollup? that's the only place I have ever had a problem. In most cases, 2 buttons are all you need for that. one on each side.
The fact is, there will never be any one program that has all the features any one specific person wants it to have. Part of being a good skinner is to accept the challenge and make it work the way you want it to.
And as far as Winamp, sonique and media player go, their main purposes are not to be square blocks that show some form of data or another. they are mainly used to play music. And if you look at the video wondows in WA and WMP, they're basically square boxes, just like windows. There really is no way to compare a program that modifies the borders of several types of programs to a program made for one specific purpose that does not need to follow the rules of any other programs.
With the transparency overlapping, do you mean on rollup? that's the only place I have ever had a problem. In most cases, 2 buttons are all you need for that. one on each side.
The fact is, there will never be any one program that has all the features any one specific person wants it to have. Part of being a good skinner is to accept the challenge and make it work the way you want it to.
MindlessPuppet
Reply #14 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 6:58 PM
Reply #14 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 6:58 PM
I wasn't so much as comparing it to the media players skinning style, as much as the development that goes behind skinning a media player. WindowBlinds should requier some sort of (real) scripting, this way you could create much more dynamic looking skins. I mean just think of the extra abilities simple if/then statements could add, ie. you could have it stretch for smaller windows and tile for larger. When I said that skinning of other programs has evolved, I meant that the method used to do it has; now instead of relaying on a preset layout more is left up to the skinner. And I don't see why windowblinds should be any different. I understand we are creating skins for a "box that has data", but that's only because we are limited to it. When it comes down to it, most skins are pretty much cookie cutter patterns; even ones the try to venture beyond, such as my own, don't vary all that much.
It's not that I want it to have some crazy features to fit my needs, like I said it seems to be missing many fundamental features; such as z-indexing, semi-transparent borders, vertical text, ect. Things like these seem pretty basic, and would benefit everyone, it wouldn't just be formed around one person's needs.
It's not that I want it to have some crazy features to fit my needs, like I said it seems to be missing many fundamental features; such as z-indexing, semi-transparent borders, vertical text, ect. Things like these seem pretty basic, and would benefit everyone, it wouldn't just be formed around one person's needs.
sig101
Reply #15 Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:51 AM
Reply #15 Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:51 AM
Awhile back users/skinners were asked what they wanted to see in future for WB. I think that was done perhaps here and also in the newsgroup? Anyway, I don't know about the technical stuff but it sounds interesting. Have you contacted the developers directly to provide your input? Perhaps you did long ago, but it can't hurt to do so again. 
paxx
Reply #16 Thursday, June 19, 2003 5:55 AM
Reply #16 Thursday, June 19, 2003 5:55 AM
Also, a lot of issues seem to relate to speed. I asked Brad once why Windowblinds wouldn't support alpha blending on the edges for smooth borders. It seems it would slow down many computers and would bring a lot of "Windowblinds slows down my computer" complaints. Apparently it will be considered when it is estimated that most people have a powerfull computer.
craeonics
Reply #17 Thursday, June 19, 2003 11:42 AM
Reply #17 Thursday, June 19, 2003 11:42 AM
Or in other words, it's going to take years. Alpha is a true processor hog.
KarmaGirl
Reply #18 Thursday, June 19, 2003 11:47 AM
Reply #18 Thursday, June 19, 2003 11:47 AM
If you have suggestions about products (including bug reports, needed features,
improvements on current features, etc.) Please report them to Stardock. If
it relates to a Stardock product, contact Stardock. the developers do
*not* read these boards for bug reports or feature requests. If you email
a complete report to [email protected] it can be forwarded to the correct
developer who has the power to change the program. Otherwise, people can
complain until they are blue in the face and it won't change anything.
this site has skin libraries and a place to chat about skinning. It is
*not* a place to try and get programs changed or report bugs.
improvements on current features, etc.) Please report them to Stardock. If
it relates to a Stardock product, contact Stardock. the developers do
*not* read these boards for bug reports or feature requests. If you email
a complete report to [email protected] it can be forwarded to the correct
developer who has the power to change the program. Otherwise, people can
complain until they are blue in the face and it won't change anything.
this site has skin libraries and a place to chat about skinning. It is
*not* a place to try and get programs changed or report bugs.
Beastatron
Reply #19 Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:05 PM
Reply #19 Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:05 PM
I dont know what you mean by "limitations", but look at the skin called dinksDX. Whoever made that probably had to take months for that skin, but didnt scrap it because of "limitations". It bothers me when people complain about stuff like this. If you dont like it, stop whining and make your own program the way you like it. But if you cant even complete a skin without giving up, I dont think you'll have much hope of making a whole program. SO STOP WHINING!
CerebroJD
Reply #20 Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:09 PM
Reply #20 Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:09 PM
Beastatron: Lets try to keep thinking postive here. No need to get someone on the defensive with comments like that. I think that is was good that he bring this up so that we can help him figure out how to overcome these obstacles.
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Reply #1 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 3:13 PM