Unfriendly comments
Tuesday, June 17, 2003 by grayhaze | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Today I received the following e-mail from someone who shall remain nameless:
"Im using your dinksdx-blue skin for windwowsblinds and i think it is really awful.
i love the tab with the controlls for winamp. the buttons for next song etc are working, but it doesn't display the title of the song which is playing. did i overread something i have to do to activate them?"
I answered his question regardless of his bad manners, but I'm amazed that people like this are out there. What can the logic be in insulting someone's hard work and then asking for help in using it? >
For those people who are having this problem, make sure you have at least version 4.00c of WindowBlinds.
"Im using your dinksdx-blue skin for windwowsblinds and i think it is really awful.
i love the tab with the controlls for winamp. the buttons for next song etc are working, but it doesn't display the title of the song which is playing. did i overread something i have to do to activate them?"
I answered his question regardless of his bad manners, but I'm amazed that people like this are out there. What can the logic be in insulting someone's hard work and then asking for help in using it? >
For those people who are having this problem, make sure you have at least version 4.00c of WindowBlinds.
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Orion
Reply #42 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 8:47 AM
Reply #42 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 8:47 AM
Jafo: In your context and in your examples...I concur. You rox!
Lady_Akasha
Reply #43 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 8:33 PM
I completely 100% disagree on that statement. What does someone having the right to say they utterly dislike a piece have to do with one having or not having pride in their work?
If an artist is so proud of their work, and then one person decides 'it's awful' and that person is so overcome by this statement we have either one of two things. Either that artist DIDN"T have very much pride/confidence to begin with or if they're in such uproar over it--they need a reality check and come back down to earth.
Find what there is to be learned from it. Sure hearing 'it sucks' can sting quite hard. After the feeling of being insulted wears off, look at the design see what can be improved.
Freedom of speech is everyone's right. Manners or approach have no factor in said law. Of course tact, manners, and approach should be handled correctly--but reality is that isn't always so.
You're right it shouldn't. Of course it would be nice if all the long hours of work is appreciated because creation of ANY kind is more than just hard work, there's a little piece of that artists heart and soul in that design, whatever it may be. I agree with you. However, it shouldn't be assumed that it is 'owed.' Again that is where my little word can come into play again...."Humble"
"spit in your face" a little intense, isn't it? If an artist of any genre gets a statement such as "I think its quite bad.Sorry don't see why you're so popular" (these are JUST examples of comments) is that a 'spit in the face'? I don't think so. It would suck to recieve such a comment, and yep that sting would cause discomfort. HOWEVER it's not a spit in the face--it's a comment simply stating you're not 'that' good in this being's opinion.
Would it be nice if that person who felt that a work 'sucks' used tact and manners? ABSOLUTELY! And naturally we'd all prefer that. Who wouldn't! But again, I have to stress people DO have a right to say they don't like something in anyway they see fit.
It should be a learning experience, and hopefully grounding.
Candid comments are not so common here as I mentioned before, and in truth-- that's a shame. Because at some other sites it does get pretty candid at times--and it can be not only humbling but a growing experience. Often one says "Ouch that hurt!" but there's something to be learned from everything.
Reply #43 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 8:33 PM
| 37 by JourneyMan grayhaze - 6/18/2003 5:52:06 AM As for those people who think it's right for someone to comment that a skin 'sucks', you obviously hold little pride in the work you do. |
I completely 100% disagree on that statement. What does someone having the right to say they utterly dislike a piece have to do with one having or not having pride in their work?
If an artist is so proud of their work, and then one person decides 'it's awful' and that person is so overcome by this statement we have either one of two things. Either that artist DIDN"T have very much pride/confidence to begin with or if they're in such uproar over it--they need a reality check and come back down to earth.
Find what there is to be learned from it. Sure hearing 'it sucks' can sting quite hard. After the feeling of being insulted wears off, look at the design see what can be improved.
Freedom of speech is everyone's right. Manners or approach have no factor in said law. Of course tact, manners, and approach should be handled correctly--but reality is that isn't always so.
| it shouldn't be out of the question to expect a little respect. |
You're right it shouldn't. Of course it would be nice if all the long hours of work is appreciated because creation of ANY kind is more than just hard work, there's a little piece of that artists heart and soul in that design, whatever it may be. I agree with you. However, it shouldn't be assumed that it is 'owed.' Again that is where my little word can come into play again...."Humble"
| You put your heart and soul into producing something that you hope will bring pleasure to people, only to have someone turn around and spit in your face. I don't think I'd ever want to accept that sort of behaviour. |
"spit in your face" a little intense, isn't it? If an artist of any genre gets a statement such as "I think its quite bad.Sorry don't see why you're so popular" (these are JUST examples of comments) is that a 'spit in the face'? I don't think so. It would suck to recieve such a comment, and yep that sting would cause discomfort. HOWEVER it's not a spit in the face--it's a comment simply stating you're not 'that' good in this being's opinion.
Would it be nice if that person who felt that a work 'sucks' used tact and manners? ABSOLUTELY! And naturally we'd all prefer that. Who wouldn't! But again, I have to stress people DO have a right to say they don't like something in anyway they see fit.
It should be a learning experience, and hopefully grounding.
Candid comments are not so common here as I mentioned before, and in truth-- that's a shame. Because at some other sites it does get pretty candid at times--and it can be not only humbling but a growing experience. Often one says "Ouch that hurt!" but there's something to be learned from everything.
Jafo
Reply #44 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 11:36 PM
Reply #44 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 11:36 PM
Lady Akasha....you misinterpreted the quote in #37....grayhaze said that if a person is happy to comment that another person's work sucks then the commenter hasn't pride in his OWN work, or else he would not belittle the efforts of others so readily....at least that's my interpretation of his comment...
Freedom of speech is about the rights of an individual to hold his own opinion and verbalize it, and not freedom of language choice, or freedom of acceptable moral respectability. It's not about a freedom to be rude at all.
"it's a comment simply stating you're not 'that' good in this being's opinion."....fortunately such comments are only as good as the 'quality' [perceived or real] of the person stating it.
If Alexandrie stated my WB skin was crap then I'd be obliged to concur. If a 'newbie' non-skinner said it was crap I'd pat him on the head and ignore it.....UNLESS he was coherent enough to proffer an explanation, since his bona-fides do not precede him.
Remember....'any way they see fit' includes some quite juicy language which could make a hardenned Marine blush....and that 'right' they very definitely do NOT have on this site...
feline
Reply #45 Thursday, June 19, 2003 2:59 AM
i feel i have to respond to this. you seem to be making the assumption that when an artist (lets say me, since i know how i feel) uploads something to this site, then i must be quite confident in it.
what is the basis for this assumption? i have written a small and simple DX plugin which a couple of kind people are testing for me. when i have polished it a bit more i am planning on uploading it.
however, this is my first (and so far only) DX plugin. i am NOT "deeply confident" about it, but it does what it is supposed to do on at least 2 machines. i don't consider that a good basis for excessive confidence in it. perhaps i am just a very sensitive person *shrug*
so, if after uploading i get 2 comments, one saying it is very useful, and one rude one saying it is crap, what am i to think?
should i get up on my high horse, and decide to ignore the bad comment since i "know" that my work is flawless and wonderful? that would be the very egotism that people seem to object to.
should i ignore all comments from people who have never themselves written a plugin, since they aren't "qualified to appreciate my work"? if so, then why am i bothering to upload (share) it in the first place?
perhaps this is simply a matter of perspective, but i don't really see where you are coming from.
is it "wrong" of me to hope that if my plugin helps some people they will respond with a few kind words??? after all, that is the only payment i am expecting to get here.
Reply #45 Thursday, June 19, 2003 2:59 AM
| Lady Akasha - If an artist is so proud of their work, and then one person decides 'it's awful' and that person is so overcome by this statement we have either one of two things. Either that artist DIDN"T have very much pride/confidence to begin with or if they're in such uproar over it--they need a reality check and come back down to earth. |
i feel i have to respond to this. you seem to be making the assumption that when an artist (lets say me, since i know how i feel) uploads something to this site, then i must be quite confident in it.
what is the basis for this assumption? i have written a small and simple DX plugin which a couple of kind people are testing for me. when i have polished it a bit more i am planning on uploading it.
however, this is my first (and so far only) DX plugin. i am NOT "deeply confident" about it, but it does what it is supposed to do on at least 2 machines. i don't consider that a good basis for excessive confidence in it. perhaps i am just a very sensitive person *shrug*
so, if after uploading i get 2 comments, one saying it is very useful, and one rude one saying it is crap, what am i to think?
should i get up on my high horse, and decide to ignore the bad comment since i "know" that my work is flawless and wonderful? that would be the very egotism that people seem to object to.
should i ignore all comments from people who have never themselves written a plugin, since they aren't "qualified to appreciate my work"? if so, then why am i bothering to upload (share) it in the first place?
perhaps this is simply a matter of perspective, but i don't really see where you are coming from.
is it "wrong" of me to hope that if my plugin helps some people they will respond with a few kind words??? after all, that is the only payment i am expecting to get here.
grayhaze
Reply #46 Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:38 AM
Reply #46 Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:38 AM
I think feline hit the nail on the head when she talked about payment. The majority of work that is uploaded here is made freely available and the only payment we get for our hard work is to see that our work is appreciated. I don't consider that in any way egotistical.
Although a particular upload might not be considered to be their best work by the author, they will usually feel that what they have produced is of a high standard, otherwise they wouldn't upload it in the first place. So there is a certain amount of pride involved in the response that they get.
I respect and welcome constructive comments about my work, and usually work to fix any problems that come to my attention. However, a 'spit-in-the-face' comment such as 'this sucks' or 'why did you upload this crap' does nothing to make me want to take a look at my work and improve it. Such comments are just plain rude and unnecessary. Freedom of speech can be taken a little too far these days, and is often used as an excuse to throw around vicious attacks which should be a thing of the past in a civilized world.
Those pointless comments are the kind that should just be kept to yourself. They serve no purpose other than to create ill feeling, and I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise. All it takes is one comment of 'this broke my machine' or 'windowblinds sucks' to cast doubt on the usefulness of a skin for other potential downloaders, and such comments are usually intended as an attack on either the author or the product they are skinning.
My irritation really comes from those people who feel that they need to e-mail you to tell you 'your skin sucks', and offer no constructive criticism to back up their claim. This is something very unique to the internet, and I think is something of a step backwards in moral and ethical behaviour. That same person would never dream of writing a letter to their next door neighbour to tell them their house is a mess or that their garden's ugly.
Although a particular upload might not be considered to be their best work by the author, they will usually feel that what they have produced is of a high standard, otherwise they wouldn't upload it in the first place. So there is a certain amount of pride involved in the response that they get.
I respect and welcome constructive comments about my work, and usually work to fix any problems that come to my attention. However, a 'spit-in-the-face' comment such as 'this sucks' or 'why did you upload this crap' does nothing to make me want to take a look at my work and improve it. Such comments are just plain rude and unnecessary. Freedom of speech can be taken a little too far these days, and is often used as an excuse to throw around vicious attacks which should be a thing of the past in a civilized world.
Those pointless comments are the kind that should just be kept to yourself. They serve no purpose other than to create ill feeling, and I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise. All it takes is one comment of 'this broke my machine' or 'windowblinds sucks' to cast doubt on the usefulness of a skin for other potential downloaders, and such comments are usually intended as an attack on either the author or the product they are skinning.
My irritation really comes from those people who feel that they need to e-mail you to tell you 'your skin sucks', and offer no constructive criticism to back up their claim. This is something very unique to the internet, and I think is something of a step backwards in moral and ethical behaviour. That same person would never dream of writing a letter to their next door neighbour to tell them their house is a mess or that their garden's ugly.
Lady_Akasha
Reply #47 Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:57 PM
Reply #47 Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:57 PM
Aye did I get myself in a pickle or what? 
(not that doesn't mean that I take back anything I said.)
First off, GRAYHAZE let me say this before anything else. "My points were not neccessarily a jab at you. I don't know you enough to do that. Two, your incident is as I mentioned before; This person was obviously very contradictory. Secondly, the fact that they did that via email rather than on the actual comments section strikes me as odd. But then again some people do that I suppose--I get a lot of comments on my work via email instead. I'm not neccessarily (can't spell that word for beans) validating this person in particular.
My statements were generalized about artists not being able to handle negative feedback all too often.
Maybe I did, that is quite possible. And if so, my bad, and I'm sorry.
That is very true, I can't argue that. However, I think it's safe to say that I don't support such verbal expression or language as by my own commenting during my time here, has NEVER been brash or inappropriate. I've always been respectful and the like, my actions speak for itself. I am always respectful and 'try' to be encouraging and say nice things. As just like you folks I hope for the same thing in return.
However, I don't think there is a thing so proposterous about me saying that getting negative feedback CAN BE HUMBLING! and even SHOULD BE HUMBLING! I AGREE with all your statements about the hard work, the heart, the time that goes into making the work and such things should be taken into consideration before blurting out a nasty statement. ALL AGREED! But I am saying that isn't always the reality!
There is this atittude of viewers/uses have less rights to an opinion if they are not an artist themself. *rattles head* Ummm the viewers are the ones that come here all the time, pay for their subscriptions to get the skins, walls, icons,etc. Because they've never broken down and made a skin, they can't say "I'm sorry I just don't like it--it doesn't look very good." Well, now that persons statement holds no value--their not a skinner. I'm sorry I've heard such statements on several occassions and I don't agree with that and never will. That's like saying a patient can't say their doctor isn't very good because he doesn't know how to do surgery.
Let's say a citizen makes a post and says; "I was browsing through the selection of skins, I was hoping for something a bit dramatic and very artistic. Everthing seems nice, but rather bland..." Let's be real, that citizen would get STOMPED over here. Because he said most of the work is bland. Why doesn't he have that right? If that is what he/she feels why is it not ok to say that? I'm not saying "like it", keep that in mind.
My whole point is that, I just think people should have the right to say they don't like something if they don't, without being considered a nimwit. If an artist CHOSES to post their works on a world wide web, making it open for feedback they ARE giving the open public such freedoms, then they should be able to handle it diplomatically. I agree a statement such as 'this sucks' isn't the most intellectual of statements, I AGREE. But if that's what they feel they do have that right. (I am NOT speaking of speech that would "make a marine blush") Which that statement in itself if you think about it is quite isulting and politically incorrect. That's insulting the couth of all marines, if you think about it.
(not that doesn't mean that I take back anything I said.)First off, GRAYHAZE let me say this before anything else. "My points were not neccessarily a jab at you. I don't know you enough to do that. Two, your incident is as I mentioned before; This person was obviously very contradictory. Secondly, the fact that they did that via email rather than on the actual comments section strikes me as odd. But then again some people do that I suppose--I get a lot of comments on my work via email instead. I'm not neccessarily (can't spell that word for beans) validating this person in particular.
My statements were generalized about artists not being able to handle negative feedback all too often.
| #44 by Jafo - 6/18/2003 11:36:57 PM Lady Akasha....you misinterpreted the quote in #37....grayhaze said that if a person is happy to comment that another person's work sucks then the commenter hasn't pride in his OWN work, or else he would not belittle the efforts of others so readily....at least that's my interpretation of his comment... |
Maybe I did, that is quite possible. And if so, my bad, and I'm sorry.
| Remember....'any way they see fit' includes some quite juicy language which could make a hardenned Marine blush....and that 'right' they very definitely do NOT have on this site... |
That is very true, I can't argue that. However, I think it's safe to say that I don't support such verbal expression or language as by my own commenting during my time here, has NEVER been brash or inappropriate. I've always been respectful and the like, my actions speak for itself. I am always respectful and 'try' to be encouraging and say nice things. As just like you folks I hope for the same thing in return.
However, I don't think there is a thing so proposterous about me saying that getting negative feedback CAN BE HUMBLING! and even SHOULD BE HUMBLING! I AGREE with all your statements about the hard work, the heart, the time that goes into making the work and such things should be taken into consideration before blurting out a nasty statement. ALL AGREED! But I am saying that isn't always the reality!
There is this atittude of viewers/uses have less rights to an opinion if they are not an artist themself. *rattles head* Ummm the viewers are the ones that come here all the time, pay for their subscriptions to get the skins, walls, icons,etc. Because they've never broken down and made a skin, they can't say "I'm sorry I just don't like it--it doesn't look very good." Well, now that persons statement holds no value--their not a skinner. I'm sorry I've heard such statements on several occassions and I don't agree with that and never will. That's like saying a patient can't say their doctor isn't very good because he doesn't know how to do surgery.
Let's say a citizen makes a post and says; "I was browsing through the selection of skins, I was hoping for something a bit dramatic and very artistic. Everthing seems nice, but rather bland..." Let's be real, that citizen would get STOMPED over here. Because he said most of the work is bland. Why doesn't he have that right? If that is what he/she feels why is it not ok to say that? I'm not saying "like it", keep that in mind.
My whole point is that, I just think people should have the right to say they don't like something if they don't, without being considered a nimwit. If an artist CHOSES to post their works on a world wide web, making it open for feedback they ARE giving the open public such freedoms, then they should be able to handle it diplomatically. I agree a statement such as 'this sucks' isn't the most intellectual of statements, I AGREE. But if that's what they feel they do have that right. (I am NOT speaking of speech that would "make a marine blush") Which that statement in itself if you think about it is quite isulting and politically incorrect. That's insulting the couth of all marines, if you think about it.
Lady_Akasha
Reply #48 Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:01 PM
Reply #48 Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:01 PM
P.S.
I would! If that person is nasty and has all their junk in the front yard...or something of the like, they're devaluing the worth of my property!
| That same person would never dream of writing a letter to their next door neighbour to tell them their house is a mess or that their garden's ugly. |
I would! If that person is nasty and has all their junk in the front yard...or something of the like, they're devaluing the worth of my property!
Jafo
Reply #49 Friday, June 20, 2003 12:01 AM
Reply #49 Friday, June 20, 2003 12:01 AM
OK...language that would make a motor-race official blush, then.....[and I've been one for 30 years so I can vouch for their/our usual lurid eloquence]....mustn't upset the Marines....fragile as they are....
Jafo
Reply #50 Friday, June 20, 2003 12:06 AM
Reply #50 Friday, June 20, 2003 12:06 AM
As for the layman saying the skin is 'bland' ....that's fine as it's a personal opinion....what is not of any real 'value' is a layman claiming it is 'childish' or 'badly done', when he usually has no idea at all what is involved in creating it and therefore has no understanding of whether the outcome WAS 'badly done' or not. Anyone ever wondered why skinners tend to be older than the average of the skin users? Food for thought there....
grayhaze
Reply #52 Friday, June 20, 2003 4:45 AM
Reply #52 Friday, June 20, 2003 4:45 AM
I agree that users should be allowed to make comments along the lines of 'I don't like this, it could be better', even though those comments aren't of any real use to anyone. The distinction I've made a couple of times already is between those comments and the kind that you'd say to the plumber who's just torn out all of the pipes in your bathroom and then holds his hand out for payment.
I think the users have things the wrong way round. They somehow feel that us skinners owe them something for the time they've taken to look at your work, when really it's they who owe something (if only a little respect) for the time we've taken to create something for them, regardless of the outcome. They may argue that having paid a subscription fee to the site or having bought a Stardock product entitles them to say what they want to the skinners who keep the site going, but that simply isn't the case.
As I said before, skinners in general don't get any payment for the work they do, so the fact that a user has paid a subscription to the site makes absolutely no difference to them. They create skins because it's something they enjoy, and offer them to others as an added extra. They don't need comments to feel they have done a good job, as the download figures go some way to measuring how well they've done, but nice comments add a little incentive to continuing their work. The outright negative comments serve no purpose whatsoever, other than to hurt the skinner and make them feel like it's not worth their time to create anything new. We've seen plenty of skinners quit because of negative comments in the past.
I don't see why we should just sit back and accept non-constructive negative comments. It all comes down to respect. Regardless of whether the user commenting has an idea of the amount of work that went into a skin, it's not exactly a huge leap of intuition to realise that a skin takes more than a casual afternoon's work to put together.
I think the users have things the wrong way round. They somehow feel that us skinners owe them something for the time they've taken to look at your work, when really it's they who owe something (if only a little respect) for the time we've taken to create something for them, regardless of the outcome. They may argue that having paid a subscription fee to the site or having bought a Stardock product entitles them to say what they want to the skinners who keep the site going, but that simply isn't the case.
As I said before, skinners in general don't get any payment for the work they do, so the fact that a user has paid a subscription to the site makes absolutely no difference to them. They create skins because it's something they enjoy, and offer them to others as an added extra. They don't need comments to feel they have done a good job, as the download figures go some way to measuring how well they've done, but nice comments add a little incentive to continuing their work. The outright negative comments serve no purpose whatsoever, other than to hurt the skinner and make them feel like it's not worth their time to create anything new. We've seen plenty of skinners quit because of negative comments in the past.
I don't see why we should just sit back and accept non-constructive negative comments. It all comes down to respect. Regardless of whether the user commenting has an idea of the amount of work that went into a skin, it's not exactly a huge leap of intuition to realise that a skin takes more than a casual afternoon's work to put together.
eieio
Reply #53 Friday, June 20, 2003 4:57 AM
Reply #53 Friday, June 20, 2003 4:57 AM
I also have to agree with Lady A. In so far as a lot of comments/statements that are not 'shiningly positive' tend to get mobbed a lot of the time with very negative and provocative rebukes or name calling, often from some of the regular posters here.I'm not talking about the moronic 'this sux' kind, but the general 'hmm, I don't really like this' kind. I feel these types of rebukes are often as rude as the original 'that sux' poster. I think that kind of response inhibits any real feedback that can be useful to an artist in order to see the things he/she missed or overlooked. People may tend to refrain from posting anything but 'happy' comments and, although they are very ego boosting, don't do a lot to help an artist grow and expand.
Don't get me wrong; there is some constructive criticism here. I welcome that type of feedback.
I don't like it when I get those senseless comments either, but what do I gain from baiting those types of posters? If I respond in a blatantly negative and abusive manner, what does it do to improve the culture and sense of community?
eieio holds a private conversation with himself
(OK, pictoratus, you told yourself you would never get involved in these types of discussions. Now you've done it!)
Don't get me wrong; there is some constructive criticism here. I welcome that type of feedback.
I don't like it when I get those senseless comments either, but what do I gain from baiting those types of posters? If I respond in a blatantly negative and abusive manner, what does it do to improve the culture and sense of community?
eieio holds a private conversation with himself
(OK, pictoratus, you told yourself you would never get involved in these types of discussions. Now you've done it!)
feline
Reply #54 Friday, June 20, 2003 5:30 AM
Reply #54 Friday, June 20, 2003 5:30 AM
i think in part this discussion comes back to the age old (well, i feels like that anyway 
) question of "who is most important to the site".
i am not sure that is quite the right way to phrase it, but i think that is close enough.
if the skinners are the most important, then the idea that they must be protected from all negative reactions, and only see lovely comments makes sense (yes, this is a bit extreme).
if the people who pay to support the site are the most important, then they have the "right" to say what ever they want about anything that is uploaded at this site.
neither of this is the real situation. the site needs both sets of people, and other groups as well (like the admins, the coders, etc)
of late this message board does seem less tolerant, and more sensitive. but, you need to remember that it wasn't long ago that it felt like it was being ripped apart from within.
for any skin, there are going to be people who like it, and people who don't like it. no doubt as a skin author it is nice to hear that people love your work
should people never say they don't like a specific skin? i would say no.
i would like to think they wouldn't get stomped.
there have been many cases where this seemed to happen, but normally they are where someone who we have never seen post or comment before appears on the message board, complains that all of the walls (for example) are "crap", there is nothing they want here, and why cannot they download anything more?
now, this was normally triggered by them reaching their download limit, which used to be 50 meg. under the circumstances, it is reasonable to ask if they hate so much of the work here, why have they downloaded so much of it, and why are they demanding the right to download even more of it for free?
over all, i agree that artists should be aware that not everyone likes their work. at the same time, a reasoned "critique" from a fellow skinner is going to get more attention, and deserve more respect, than a row of vomit icons (thankfully no longer available).
so, a request (although most people probably wont spot it buried in this thread):
if you don't like a skin, and decide to tell the artist this, please be polite, and if possible, give some reason for your views.
eg, "i don't really like this wall since it is far to dark for my tastes, and doesn't provide any sensible space for my icons"
any skinners want to comment on this? i presume you aren't going to object to, or get upset about, this sort of "constructive" negative feedback. personally, i would be quite happy with these sort of comments.
) question of "who is most important to the site".i am not sure that is quite the right way to phrase it, but i think that is close enough.
if the skinners are the most important, then the idea that they must be protected from all negative reactions, and only see lovely comments makes sense (yes, this is a bit extreme).
if the people who pay to support the site are the most important, then they have the "right" to say what ever they want about anything that is uploaded at this site.
neither of this is the real situation. the site needs both sets of people, and other groups as well (like the admins, the coders, etc)
of late this message board does seem less tolerant, and more sensitive. but, you need to remember that it wasn't long ago that it felt like it was being ripped apart from within.
for any skin, there are going to be people who like it, and people who don't like it. no doubt as a skin author it is nice to hear that people love your work
should people never say they don't like a specific skin? i would say no.
| Lady Akasha - Let's say a citizen makes a post and says; "I was browsing through the selection of skins, I was hoping for something a bit dramatic and very artistic. Everthing seems nice, but rather bland..." Let's be real, that citizen would get STOMPED over here. Because he said most of the work is bland. Why doesn't he have that right? If that is what he/she feels why is it not ok to say that? I'm not saying "like it", keep that in mind. |
i would like to think they wouldn't get stomped.
there have been many cases where this seemed to happen, but normally they are where someone who we have never seen post or comment before appears on the message board, complains that all of the walls (for example) are "crap", there is nothing they want here, and why cannot they download anything more?
now, this was normally triggered by them reaching their download limit, which used to be 50 meg. under the circumstances, it is reasonable to ask if they hate so much of the work here, why have they downloaded so much of it, and why are they demanding the right to download even more of it for free?
over all, i agree that artists should be aware that not everyone likes their work. at the same time, a reasoned "critique" from a fellow skinner is going to get more attention, and deserve more respect, than a row of vomit icons (thankfully no longer available).
so, a request (although most people probably wont spot it buried in this thread
):if you don't like a skin, and decide to tell the artist this, please be polite, and if possible, give some reason for your views.
eg, "i don't really like this wall since it is far to dark for my tastes, and doesn't provide any sensible space for my icons"
any skinners want to comment on this? i presume you aren't going to object to, or get upset about, this sort of "constructive" negative feedback. personally, i would be quite happy with these sort of comments.
Lecrayon
Reply #55 Friday, June 20, 2003 5:33 AM
Reply #55 Friday, June 20, 2003 5:33 AM
As I said before I would recommend anyone just to have an exhibition of your work in a gallery......Now just go incognito and listen to upstarts and people that have the urge to degrade anything. It's a laugh. Only a few will give their real thoughts and maybe dare to give advice. You, as the artist will learn to sift the meant comments soon enough. On a site like this, it is just the same. It will vary from "rox" to "sux" and both are meaningless, unless it has the "because bla bla bla and I would do bla bla bla" comment behind it. That will give the author some idea where to improve (or not). Otherwise it's just "a comment" with which you can boost your ego, or maybe some incentive for sheep to skip or download your work.
...Now just go incognito and listen to upstarts and people that have the urge to degrade anything. It's a laugh. Only a few will give their real thoughts and maybe dare to give advice. You, as the artist will learn to sift the meant comments soon enough. On a site like this, it is just the same. It will vary from "rox" to "sux" and both are meaningless, unless it has the "because bla bla bla and I would do bla bla bla" comment behind it. That will give the author some idea where to improve (or not). Otherwise it's just "a comment" with which you can boost your ego, or maybe some incentive for sheep to skip or download your work.
grayhaze
Reply #57 Friday, June 20, 2003 6:02 AM
Reply #57 Friday, June 20, 2003 6:02 AM
That's all I'm asking for feline, a little constructive criticism. I like getting that sort of feedback, as if enough people feel the same way about an aspect of my work I'll make a real effort to change it.
I never said that people shouldn't be able to say they don't like something. I'd find the site a pretty dull place if all I got on my skins were comments saying 'fantastic' or 'well done'. I like to be able to improve my skills, and in many ways I find skinning a good medium to do this with. I'm probably the harshest critic of my own work, and it doesn't take more than a few minutes after a skin is complete for me to start picking fault with it, so I would never suggest that others can't do the same.
So the whole issue comes down to one thing - more constructive criticism, less abuse.
I never said that people shouldn't be able to say they don't like something. I'd find the site a pretty dull place if all I got on my skins were comments saying 'fantastic' or 'well done'. I like to be able to improve my skills, and in many ways I find skinning a good medium to do this with. I'm probably the harshest critic of my own work, and it doesn't take more than a few minutes after a skin is complete for me to start picking fault with it, so I would never suggest that others can't do the same.
So the whole issue comes down to one thing - more constructive criticism, less abuse.
Chef Garry
Reply #58 Friday, June 20, 2003 6:32 AM
Reply #58 Friday, June 20, 2003 6:32 AM
GH:
While I support pretty much everything you've said, I take umbriage here. With the exception of admittedly more than a few trolls, skin comments and messages show, I think, rather a lot of support and appreciation from the majority of us users.
Here, here! A round of ale for all! "Whiskey for my men and beer for my horses"
| I think the users have things the wrong way round. They somehow feel that us skinners owe them something for the time they've taken to look at your work |
While I support pretty much everything you've said, I take umbriage here. With the exception of admittedly more than a few trolls, skin comments and messages show, I think, rather a lot of support and appreciation from the majority of us users.
| It all comes down to respect |
Here, here! A round of ale for all! "Whiskey for my men and beer for my horses"
grayhaze
Reply #59 Friday, June 20, 2003 7:09 AM
Reply #59 Friday, June 20, 2003 7:09 AM
Chef Garry >> My apologies for that comment, as it wasn't really worded in the way I intended it. I was referring to the users who leave the unkind comments, not users in general.
Chef Garry
Reply #60 Friday, June 20, 2003 7:17 AM
Reply #60 Friday, June 20, 2003 7:17 AM
I understood that, just felt the point needed to be made. You've always shown yourself to be a gentleman and I appreciate your work and your comments. Nice design on your website too!
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Reply #41 Wednesday, June 18, 2003 8:27 AM
#11 by Admin KarmaGirl - 6/17/2003 6:46:19 PM grayhaze, why can't you just believe that you are not god's gift to skinning? Geez...what an ego! KarmaGirl runs quickly away so that she doesn't get smacked with a dead trout by grayhaze...yes, and I was joking in case anyone didn't understand..
Don't make me hurt you...
grayhaze readies a live trout for extra comedic effect
oohhhhh...nobody expects a *live* trout!