New facilities on WC for skinners only.
Tuesday, May 13, 2003 by MadIce | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I don't want to push any ideas I have, but the HotList thread has an odd name which does not cover its contents and does not attract very much attention from the established skinners. However, new skinners seem to be pleased with it. I would therefore like to give it another go and concentrate on ideas mentioned in that thread.
There is a rumor that the idea of the Experimental section (explained below) has been brought under the attention of the admins. It would be nice if we can find some skinners that really want this and show their support here. That would make it easier to sell it to the admins.
The number of visitors keeps growing and this site has been improved a lot. However, it looks to me that skinners do not have an efficient way to communicate here.
The proposal that I have is fairly simple. I would like to see a so called "Experimental section". That section looks much like the "ScreenShots section". It would feature the following:
- It has a screen shot.
- It has a comments section.
- It is intended for all WC supported apps and wallpapers.
- A skin or wallpaper can only be uploaded by using a ZIP file.
- There is no download count.
- There are no ratings.
- There is a limit of 3 monts or so to keep it on the site.
The idea is also mentioned in the HotList thread which you can find at this https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?id=142898&BID=WC&page=1#toppage
Skins in the spotlight do have a high download count, a high rating or are a Featured Skin. That _may_ give the idea that skinning is all about some kind of competition. The old school started skinning just for the fun of it, they loved to experiment and push the limits. Skinz.org may have been an important milestone, but I do remember Stardock's news groups to be full of people doing just that. A skin usually wasn't created in private. Instead people would upload a beta of the skin to binaries and people would comment about its color, the fonts used, the shape of the images, the look and feel, how to use the lastest WB techniques to the max or whatever.
Recently I noticed a shift towards support on the news groups. People are using it to get help about a specific product. I am glad to see that people are still willing to beta test Stardock's software, though. But it looks like the skinners are moving out.
I think it is natural that both the news groups and the WC site are moving more towards end users of skins and its software. Afterall there are more end users than skinners. The experimental section may be a location for skinners to learn and experiment gain.
People now test and experiment with skins on a much smaller scale. Examples: I will mail Transmutate to ask what he thinks of a wall that I have made or send my WB skin to the GreenReaper to test it, or Phil sends me his latest DesktopX creation. That is all very well and I love that people are willing to help eachother in this way. The only additional input one has is after releasing the skin. That leaves hardly room for new skinners. They do not have these contacts yet.
Times have changed and we cannot get that feeling back, but we have this fantastic site here that may allow us to get some of the advantages of the old school skinning (whatever that may be) back.
Sometime ago virophile and me were talking about that. We came up with the following idea: Create an extra category in the Library called "Experimental". It is designed for established skinners to experiment new techniques or test their betas and to help new skinners to create skins. That section is not related to a specific app, but it is limited to the apps supported on this site. In this section there should be NO download count, NO rating, but there should be a preview, the skin should be downloadable (no automatic installation is required, they will be ZIP files) and people should be able to post comments. The section should be open to site members and Stardock customers.
The "no download count" and "no rating" requirements are very important because we are not competing at this level. The "no guests" requierement is important because comments of the casual visitor is not what we are after and it may help preserve bandwidth. It would be fun to see how this would work. Maybe we can get some real interaction back. The message board is fun, but often is not about skinning at all. The Experimental section may bring that back.
The site works fine if you want to download the latest and greatest skins. The current lists help them to make a choise. Downloaders can sort the skins anyway they want. Nothing wrong with that. I feel this should go on like that.
Users can get help if they post their question on the message board. KarmaGirl and a lot of others make sure those questions are answered. Nothing wrong with that either.
The message board is also being used for entertainment and to socialize. That's OK with me too.
Skinners can upload their skins and frankly that is all they can do on this site. Now this worries me. Like I said before times have changed and so are the ways skinners work. You cannot change how they work, but you can help them in their creative process. The Experimental section and the HotList would just be an aid. Nothing more, nothing less.
Some skinners feel that they should be number one (and of course it is great if your skins are rewarded by high download counts and ratings), but not all skinners feel that way. A lot of skinners skin because they love to do it. Some others see it as an art form. Every skinner may have his or her own reason why to skin.
It is hard to get even attention for this thread, because skinners are a minority. Lately we have seen posts about hijacking the topic in threads. I would go a step further. I feel that lately the message board is completely hijacked by nonsense, politics and religion. Interesting and fun subjects (that should be there to stay), but they have nothing to do with skinning. It will drive skinners away from sites like these.
I am just trying to find ways to help skinners in their work they enjoy and the skins they give us for free.
If you think about it then it is an investment to new great and creative skins in the future.
MadIce hopes that it will get back some of the "community" feeling too
There is a rumor that the idea of the Experimental section (explained below) has been brought under the attention of the admins. It would be nice if we can find some skinners that really want this and show their support here. That would make it easier to sell it to the admins.
The number of visitors keeps growing and this site has been improved a lot. However, it looks to me that skinners do not have an efficient way to communicate here.
The proposal that I have is fairly simple. I would like to see a so called "Experimental section". That section looks much like the "ScreenShots section". It would feature the following:
- It has a screen shot.
- It has a comments section.
- It is intended for all WC supported apps and wallpapers.
- A skin or wallpaper can only be uploaded by using a ZIP file.
- There is no download count.
- There are no ratings.
- There is a limit of 3 monts or so to keep it on the site.
The idea is also mentioned in the HotList thread which you can find at this https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?id=142898&BID=WC&page=1#toppage
Skins in the spotlight do have a high download count, a high rating or are a Featured Skin. That _may_ give the idea that skinning is all about some kind of competition. The old school started skinning just for the fun of it, they loved to experiment and push the limits. Skinz.org may have been an important milestone, but I do remember Stardock's news groups to be full of people doing just that. A skin usually wasn't created in private. Instead people would upload a beta of the skin to binaries and people would comment about its color, the fonts used, the shape of the images, the look and feel, how to use the lastest WB techniques to the max or whatever.
Recently I noticed a shift towards support on the news groups. People are using it to get help about a specific product. I am glad to see that people are still willing to beta test Stardock's software, though. But it looks like the skinners are moving out.
I think it is natural that both the news groups and the WC site are moving more towards end users of skins and its software. Afterall there are more end users than skinners. The experimental section may be a location for skinners to learn and experiment gain.
People now test and experiment with skins on a much smaller scale. Examples: I will mail Transmutate to ask what he thinks of a wall that I have made or send my WB skin to the GreenReaper to test it, or Phil sends me his latest DesktopX creation. That is all very well and I love that people are willing to help eachother in this way. The only additional input one has is after releasing the skin. That leaves hardly room for new skinners. They do not have these contacts yet.
Times have changed and we cannot get that feeling back, but we have this fantastic site here that may allow us to get some of the advantages of the old school skinning (whatever that may be) back.
Sometime ago virophile and me were talking about that. We came up with the following idea: Create an extra category in the Library called "Experimental". It is designed for established skinners to experiment new techniques or test their betas and to help new skinners to create skins. That section is not related to a specific app, but it is limited to the apps supported on this site. In this section there should be NO download count, NO rating, but there should be a preview, the skin should be downloadable (no automatic installation is required, they will be ZIP files) and people should be able to post comments. The section should be open to site members and Stardock customers.
The "no download count" and "no rating" requirements are very important because we are not competing at this level. The "no guests" requierement is important because comments of the casual visitor is not what we are after and it may help preserve bandwidth. It would be fun to see how this would work. Maybe we can get some real interaction back. The message board is fun, but often is not about skinning at all. The Experimental section may bring that back.
The site works fine if you want to download the latest and greatest skins. The current lists help them to make a choise. Downloaders can sort the skins anyway they want. Nothing wrong with that. I feel this should go on like that.
Users can get help if they post their question on the message board. KarmaGirl and a lot of others make sure those questions are answered. Nothing wrong with that either.
The message board is also being used for entertainment and to socialize. That's OK with me too.
Skinners can upload their skins and frankly that is all they can do on this site. Now this worries me. Like I said before times have changed and so are the ways skinners work. You cannot change how they work, but you can help them in their creative process. The Experimental section and the HotList would just be an aid. Nothing more, nothing less.
Some skinners feel that they should be number one (and of course it is great if your skins are rewarded by high download counts and ratings), but not all skinners feel that way. A lot of skinners skin because they love to do it. Some others see it as an art form. Every skinner may have his or her own reason why to skin.
It is hard to get even attention for this thread, because skinners are a minority. Lately we have seen posts about hijacking the topic in threads. I would go a step further. I feel that lately the message board is completely hijacked by nonsense, politics and religion. Interesting and fun subjects (that should be there to stay), but they have nothing to do with skinning. It will drive skinners away from sites like these.
I am just trying to find ways to help skinners in their work they enjoy and the skins they give us for free.
If you think about it then it is an investment to new great and creative skins in the future.
MadIce hopes that it will get back some of the "community" feeling too
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Chris
Reply #64 Wednesday, June 4, 2003 8:59 AM
Reply #64 Wednesday, June 4, 2003 8:59 AM
Just want to add my two cents, and I'm proably just reiterating what has been previously said.
I think that something along MadIce's ideas need to be implemented if, in the long run the skinning / desktop modding community (at least in regards to the apps that we use here) is to thrive
Consider: With each passing version, WB gets more sophisticated, allowing a whole new array of things for skinners to play with and learn. DesktopX gets more sophisticated as well, gaining more power and flexability with each release. This holds true for ObjectBar as well. More functionality means thre's more to learn and experiment with than in the past.
As MadIce said, in the past skinners and mod'ers used to frequent the newsgroups to hash skinning issues and ideas out. That appears to be no longer the case. Similary the board here is primarly a user board, and there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself. But there's little sense of skinner/mod'er community here that you can find in other similar communities.
There is no centralized/concentrated work-in-progress skins and comments area, with folks offering suggestions and techniques, and tutorials and tricks of the trade, whether its a skinning issue, a photoshop/graphics issue, or a scripting/programming/plugin issue.
IMO, if people really want to take advantage of what these applications have to offer, and foster interest, then such a community would be nice. Or you risk things falling to the wayside or dying on the vine, or only mastered by a handful of people. Case in point: WindowBlinds Smart Buttons. IIRC, starone and feline had to beat their heads against the wall when dealing with them.
[Message Edited]
I think that something along MadIce's ideas need to be implemented if, in the long run the skinning / desktop modding community (at least in regards to the apps that we use here) is to thrive
Consider: With each passing version, WB gets more sophisticated, allowing a whole new array of things for skinners to play with and learn. DesktopX gets more sophisticated as well, gaining more power and flexability with each release. This holds true for ObjectBar as well. More functionality means thre's more to learn and experiment with than in the past.
As MadIce said, in the past skinners and mod'ers used to frequent the newsgroups to hash skinning issues and ideas out. That appears to be no longer the case. Similary the board here is primarly a user board, and there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself. But there's little sense of skinner/mod'er community here that you can find in other similar communities.
There is no centralized/concentrated work-in-progress skins and comments area, with folks offering suggestions and techniques, and tutorials and tricks of the trade, whether its a skinning issue, a photoshop/graphics issue, or a scripting/programming/plugin issue.
IMO, if people really want to take advantage of what these applications have to offer, and foster interest, then such a community would be nice. Or you risk things falling to the wayside or dying on the vine, or only mastered by a handful of people. Case in point: WindowBlinds Smart Buttons. IIRC, starone and feline had to beat their heads against the wall when dealing with them.
[Message Edited]
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #65 Wednesday, June 4, 2003 9:25 AM
Reply #65 Wednesday, June 4, 2003 9:25 AM
As a new skinner i welcome this idea.My first skin might have been created in half the timeand been more fun and less frustration at trying to solve problems(some of which apparently dont have solutions...would have helped to know rather than waste hours for nothing)
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #67 Wednesday, June 4, 2003 9:40 AM
Reply #67 Wednesday, June 4, 2003 9:40 AM
I am really enjoying being part of this very interesting internet subculture.the creativity level is amazing.The willingness to help each other.The humour(some of you guys crack me up).A skinners only forum is a great idea.A side note about competition and stats...nothing wrong with a little HEALTHY competition.Thats what drives skinners to push past mediocrity.We create skins and give them away for free because we love skinning.Comments and stats are our bread and butter.When my first skin went up i checked on it a lot just to see its little counter go up.Now i can settle down and breathe a sigh of contentment that people like it.Hi everybody!
MadIce
Reply #68 Wednesday, June 4, 2003 10:04 AM
Reply #68 Wednesday, June 4, 2003 10:04 AM
I.R. Brainiac, welcome. I hope you have a great time here. Thanks for your comments.
Nothing wrong with healthy competition, but some of these guys are now anal about downloads and ratings. A few years ago there seemed to be more coorporation than now. Most of the skinners work on their own now. There is less room for creativity if you just want to be #1. More and more middle of the road skins appear. Also, if you don't share the craft we end up sooner or later with a small skinner's elite knowning the craft and people like yourself wouldn't have a chance.
[Message Edited]
Nothing wrong with healthy competition, but some of these guys are now anal about downloads and ratings. A few years ago there seemed to be more coorporation than now. Most of the skinners work on their own now. There is less room for creativity if you just want to be #1. More and more middle of the road skins appear. Also, if you don't share the craft we end up sooner or later with a small skinner's elite knowning the craft and people like yourself wouldn't have a chance.
[Message Edited]
MadIce
Reply #69 Wednesday, June 4, 2003 10:23 AM
Reply #69 Wednesday, June 4, 2003 10:23 AM
Yes, Chris. I share your concerns.
Today I was talking with Keila and she said that she would love to do a WB skin and would even pay to learn it. That gives a rough idea how difficult it has become. Tutorials and documentation are missing or incomplete. The WC site is not equiped to handle skinners at all. However, WC is a great site for downloaders, but there are few life signs of the so called skinning community. If WC could have such a releative simple facility then people like Keila would already have started skinning WB.
Another example: feline is working on a new DX plugin. We are talking about it on the Message Board Marathon thread, surrounded by a chocolate world. He now started a thread to get beta testers. If that thread has no or little response within 24 hours it drops in oblivion. A permanent Experimental Section would have made his attempts so much easier.
Today I was talking with Keila and she said that she would love to do a WB skin and would even pay to learn it. That gives a rough idea how difficult it has become. Tutorials and documentation are missing or incomplete. The WC site is not equiped to handle skinners at all. However, WC is a great site for downloaders, but there are few life signs of the so called skinning community. If WC could have such a releative simple facility then people like Keila would already have started skinning WB.
Another example: feline is working on a new DX plugin. We are talking about it on the Message Board Marathon thread, surrounded by a chocolate world. He now started a thread to get beta testers. If that thread has no or little response within 24 hours it drops in oblivion. A permanent Experimental Section would have made his attempts so much easier.
joetheblow
Reply #71 Wednesday, June 4, 2003 5:54 PM
Reply #71 Wednesday, June 4, 2003 5:54 PM
geeze just do it already!
I have 5 or 6 skins that need some serious input.
I have 5 or 6 skins that need some serious input.
MadIce
Reply #72 Thursday, June 5, 2003 2:57 AM
feline's thread nearly died, so I am trying to be creative by spamming other threads with a message like this:
We finally have a new DX plugin. Here is your chance to help fellow skinners out! Look at https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?BID=WC&id=156259#toppage
Reply #72 Thursday, June 5, 2003 2:57 AM
| Another example: feline is working on a new DX plugin. We are talking about it on the Message Board Marathon thread, surrounded by a chocolate world. He now started a thread to get beta testers. If that thread has no or little response within 24 hours it drops in oblivion. A permanent Experimental Section would have made his attempts so much easier. |
feline's thread nearly died, so I am trying to be creative by spamming other threads with a message like this:
We finally have a new DX plugin. Here is your chance to help fellow skinners out! Look at https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?BID=WC&id=156259#toppage
feline
Reply #73 Thursday, June 5, 2003 3:02 AM
that is why i *bounced* the thread again
doing this requires some time and resources by someone, probably T-Man. of course, since he has nothing to do all day...
realistically, it is waiting on the official GO from the site admins / owners / coders. once it gets that (it may already have that), they still need the time to get this up and running.
i am just doing my bit to make sure this isn't forgotten in the mean time
Reply #73 Thursday, June 5, 2003 3:02 AM
| joetheblow - geeze just do it already! |
that is why i *bounced* the thread again
doing this requires some time and resources by someone, probably T-Man. of course, since he has nothing to do all day...
realistically, it is waiting on the official GO from the site admins / owners / coders. once it gets that (it may already have that), they still need the time to get this up and running.
i am just doing my bit to make sure this isn't forgotten in the mean time
MadIce
Reply #74 Thursday, June 5, 2003 3:30 AM
Reply #74 Thursday, June 5, 2003 3:30 AM
The Experimental Section seems to be under the attention of the admins for some time now. But they still have not made a decision. So, we still need the skinner's support in this thread. If skinner's do not repond then why would WC bother with this idea at all?
Koasati
Reply #75 Thursday, June 5, 2003 3:40 AM
Reply #75 Thursday, June 5, 2003 3:40 AM
Yes, listen to MadIce................. skinners, speak up!!
MadIce
Reply #76 Thursday, June 5, 2003 3:52 AM
Reply #76 Thursday, June 5, 2003 3:52 AM
Thanks, Koasati.
On the other hand, one of my arguments is that skinners are not visiting the message boards often. So, getting support from them would be a bit hard, don't you think?
How about making this thread "stick on top" to compensate for that problem?
[Message Edited]
On the other hand, one of my arguments is that skinners are not visiting the message boards often. So, getting support from them would be a bit hard, don't you think?
How about making this thread "stick on top" to compensate for that problem?
[Message Edited]
feline
Reply #78 Thursday, June 5, 2003 5:48 AM
i am beginning to develop the sneaky suspicion the only way we will know if this is going to work is to try it.
feline would love to use such a section
after all, i want a "safe" way to play with my experimental (ie, have been known to crash DesktopX
) plugins and get feedback.
the question of how many skinners we can get to use it may only be answered by trying.
feline wonders how basic we can make the idea for a first trial, and still have it usable.
the simpler the first attempt is, the less work it takes, so hopefully the more willing people will be to allocate the time / resources to it as an experiment.
feline *thinks* ...
at a basic level, we want a place to talk, and storage for zip files.
so, if there was a new library section called "experimental" with rating and download counts disabled, all we would need is somewhere to talk.
we could create a handful of message board threads, and give all of them the same initial title. so, threads called:
"EXPERIMENT: plugins"
"EXPERIMENT: window blinds"
"EXPERIMENT: desktopX objects"
this way, those of us who are interested can place these threads (easily separated by titles) into our watch lists. then, at a later date, they can be easily separated out by name.
this isn't an ideal solution, but would this be enough for a rather ruff and ready trial of the idea?
the only initial work required at the site level is to add the new section to the library, and to tweak it to remove ratings and download comments. feline doesn't know how much work that is though.
the really major problem with this idea is going to be attracting the skinners to this library section, and to the threads. the other main problem is going to be the threads getting full of "help" posts, and getting pulled totally off topic and out of shape.
thread control could be done by aggressive post deletion by an admin, but that might cause more problems (with people saying "where did my posts go") than it solves.
*sigh*
feline looks for some help in thinking this one through
Reply #78 Thursday, June 5, 2003 5:48 AM
| So, we still need the skinner's support in this thread. If skinner's do not repond then why would WC bother with this idea at all? |
i am beginning to develop the sneaky suspicion the only way we will know if this is going to work is to try it.
feline would love to use such a section
after all, i want a "safe" way to play with my experimental (ie, have been known to crash DesktopX
) plugins and get feedback.the question of how many skinners we can get to use it may only be answered by trying.
feline wonders how basic we can make the idea for a first trial, and still have it usable.
the simpler the first attempt is, the less work it takes, so hopefully the more willing people will be to allocate the time / resources to it as an experiment.
feline *thinks* ...
at a basic level, we want a place to talk, and storage for zip files.
so, if there was a new library section called "experimental" with rating and download counts disabled, all we would need is somewhere to talk.
we could create a handful of message board threads, and give all of them the same initial title. so, threads called:
"EXPERIMENT: plugins"
"EXPERIMENT: window blinds"
"EXPERIMENT: desktopX objects"
this way, those of us who are interested can place these threads (easily separated by titles) into our watch lists. then, at a later date, they can be easily separated out by name.
this isn't an ideal solution, but would this be enough for a rather ruff and ready trial of the idea?
the only initial work required at the site level is to add the new section to the library, and to tweak it to remove ratings and download comments. feline doesn't know how much work that is though.
the really major problem with this idea is going to be attracting the skinners to this library section, and to the threads. the other main problem is going to be the threads getting full of "help" posts, and getting pulled totally off topic and out of shape.
thread control could be done by aggressive post deletion by an admin, but that might cause more problems (with people saying "where did my posts go") than it solves.
*sigh*
feline looks for some help in thinking this one through
MadIce
Reply #79 Thursday, June 5, 2003 5:58 AM
Reply #79 Thursday, June 5, 2003 5:58 AM
Maybe even simpler feline: Like a normal section each skin/plugin/wallpaper has its own comment section. No need to divide it into subjects.
feline
Reply #80 Thursday, June 5, 2003 6:05 AM
Reply #80 Thursday, June 5, 2003 6:05 AM
feline doh!
now why didn't i think of that?
it may still require the occasional post to be deleted, but that should work fine.
the only problem with that *may* be the length of the discussions. if you are on a 56k modem (i am at home) long pages here take an age to load. i don't see that as being an imminent concern though
so, any thoughts on this "simple initial experiment" from the admins?
now why didn't i think of that?
it may still require the occasional post to be deleted, but that should work fine.
the only problem with that *may* be the length of the discussions. if you are on a 56k modem (i am at home) long pages here take an age to load. i don't see that as being an imminent concern though
so, any thoughts on this "simple initial experiment" from the admins?
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Reply #61 Thursday, May 22, 2003 9:58 AM
(bump)
[Message Edited]