New facilities on WC for skinners only.
Tuesday, May 13, 2003 by MadIce | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I don't want to push any ideas I have, but the HotList thread has an odd name which does not cover its contents and does not attract very much attention from the established skinners. However, new skinners seem to be pleased with it. I would therefore like to give it another go and concentrate on ideas mentioned in that thread.
There is a rumor that the idea of the Experimental section (explained below) has been brought under the attention of the admins. It would be nice if we can find some skinners that really want this and show their support here. That would make it easier to sell it to the admins.
The number of visitors keeps growing and this site has been improved a lot. However, it looks to me that skinners do not have an efficient way to communicate here.
The proposal that I have is fairly simple. I would like to see a so called "Experimental section". That section looks much like the "ScreenShots section". It would feature the following:
- It has a screen shot.
- It has a comments section.
- It is intended for all WC supported apps and wallpapers.
- A skin or wallpaper can only be uploaded by using a ZIP file.
- There is no download count.
- There are no ratings.
- There is a limit of 3 monts or so to keep it on the site.
The idea is also mentioned in the HotList thread which you can find at this https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?id=142898&BID=WC&page=1#toppage
Skins in the spotlight do have a high download count, a high rating or are a Featured Skin. That _may_ give the idea that skinning is all about some kind of competition. The old school started skinning just for the fun of it, they loved to experiment and push the limits. Skinz.org may have been an important milestone, but I do remember Stardock's news groups to be full of people doing just that. A skin usually wasn't created in private. Instead people would upload a beta of the skin to binaries and people would comment about its color, the fonts used, the shape of the images, the look and feel, how to use the lastest WB techniques to the max or whatever.
Recently I noticed a shift towards support on the news groups. People are using it to get help about a specific product. I am glad to see that people are still willing to beta test Stardock's software, though. But it looks like the skinners are moving out.
I think it is natural that both the news groups and the WC site are moving more towards end users of skins and its software. Afterall there are more end users than skinners. The experimental section may be a location for skinners to learn and experiment gain.
People now test and experiment with skins on a much smaller scale. Examples: I will mail Transmutate to ask what he thinks of a wall that I have made or send my WB skin to the GreenReaper to test it, or Phil sends me his latest DesktopX creation. That is all very well and I love that people are willing to help eachother in this way. The only additional input one has is after releasing the skin. That leaves hardly room for new skinners. They do not have these contacts yet.
Times have changed and we cannot get that feeling back, but we have this fantastic site here that may allow us to get some of the advantages of the old school skinning (whatever that may be) back.
Sometime ago virophile and me were talking about that. We came up with the following idea: Create an extra category in the Library called "Experimental". It is designed for established skinners to experiment new techniques or test their betas and to help new skinners to create skins. That section is not related to a specific app, but it is limited to the apps supported on this site. In this section there should be NO download count, NO rating, but there should be a preview, the skin should be downloadable (no automatic installation is required, they will be ZIP files) and people should be able to post comments. The section should be open to site members and Stardock customers.
The "no download count" and "no rating" requirements are very important because we are not competing at this level. The "no guests" requierement is important because comments of the casual visitor is not what we are after and it may help preserve bandwidth. It would be fun to see how this would work. Maybe we can get some real interaction back. The message board is fun, but often is not about skinning at all. The Experimental section may bring that back.
The site works fine if you want to download the latest and greatest skins. The current lists help them to make a choise. Downloaders can sort the skins anyway they want. Nothing wrong with that. I feel this should go on like that.
Users can get help if they post their question on the message board. KarmaGirl and a lot of others make sure those questions are answered. Nothing wrong with that either.
The message board is also being used for entertainment and to socialize. That's OK with me too.
Skinners can upload their skins and frankly that is all they can do on this site. Now this worries me. Like I said before times have changed and so are the ways skinners work. You cannot change how they work, but you can help them in their creative process. The Experimental section and the HotList would just be an aid. Nothing more, nothing less.
Some skinners feel that they should be number one (and of course it is great if your skins are rewarded by high download counts and ratings), but not all skinners feel that way. A lot of skinners skin because they love to do it. Some others see it as an art form. Every skinner may have his or her own reason why to skin.
It is hard to get even attention for this thread, because skinners are a minority. Lately we have seen posts about hijacking the topic in threads. I would go a step further. I feel that lately the message board is completely hijacked by nonsense, politics and religion. Interesting and fun subjects (that should be there to stay), but they have nothing to do with skinning. It will drive skinners away from sites like these.
I am just trying to find ways to help skinners in their work they enjoy and the skins they give us for free.
If you think about it then it is an investment to new great and creative skins in the future.
MadIce hopes that it will get back some of the "community" feeling too
There is a rumor that the idea of the Experimental section (explained below) has been brought under the attention of the admins. It would be nice if we can find some skinners that really want this and show their support here. That would make it easier to sell it to the admins.
The number of visitors keeps growing and this site has been improved a lot. However, it looks to me that skinners do not have an efficient way to communicate here.
The proposal that I have is fairly simple. I would like to see a so called "Experimental section". That section looks much like the "ScreenShots section". It would feature the following:
- It has a screen shot.
- It has a comments section.
- It is intended for all WC supported apps and wallpapers.
- A skin or wallpaper can only be uploaded by using a ZIP file.
- There is no download count.
- There are no ratings.
- There is a limit of 3 monts or so to keep it on the site.
The idea is also mentioned in the HotList thread which you can find at this https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?id=142898&BID=WC&page=1#toppage
Skins in the spotlight do have a high download count, a high rating or are a Featured Skin. That _may_ give the idea that skinning is all about some kind of competition. The old school started skinning just for the fun of it, they loved to experiment and push the limits. Skinz.org may have been an important milestone, but I do remember Stardock's news groups to be full of people doing just that. A skin usually wasn't created in private. Instead people would upload a beta of the skin to binaries and people would comment about its color, the fonts used, the shape of the images, the look and feel, how to use the lastest WB techniques to the max or whatever.
Recently I noticed a shift towards support on the news groups. People are using it to get help about a specific product. I am glad to see that people are still willing to beta test Stardock's software, though. But it looks like the skinners are moving out.
I think it is natural that both the news groups and the WC site are moving more towards end users of skins and its software. Afterall there are more end users than skinners. The experimental section may be a location for skinners to learn and experiment gain.
People now test and experiment with skins on a much smaller scale. Examples: I will mail Transmutate to ask what he thinks of a wall that I have made or send my WB skin to the GreenReaper to test it, or Phil sends me his latest DesktopX creation. That is all very well and I love that people are willing to help eachother in this way. The only additional input one has is after releasing the skin. That leaves hardly room for new skinners. They do not have these contacts yet.
Times have changed and we cannot get that feeling back, but we have this fantastic site here that may allow us to get some of the advantages of the old school skinning (whatever that may be) back.
Sometime ago virophile and me were talking about that. We came up with the following idea: Create an extra category in the Library called "Experimental". It is designed for established skinners to experiment new techniques or test their betas and to help new skinners to create skins. That section is not related to a specific app, but it is limited to the apps supported on this site. In this section there should be NO download count, NO rating, but there should be a preview, the skin should be downloadable (no automatic installation is required, they will be ZIP files) and people should be able to post comments. The section should be open to site members and Stardock customers.
The "no download count" and "no rating" requirements are very important because we are not competing at this level. The "no guests" requierement is important because comments of the casual visitor is not what we are after and it may help preserve bandwidth. It would be fun to see how this would work. Maybe we can get some real interaction back. The message board is fun, but often is not about skinning at all. The Experimental section may bring that back.
The site works fine if you want to download the latest and greatest skins. The current lists help them to make a choise. Downloaders can sort the skins anyway they want. Nothing wrong with that. I feel this should go on like that.
Users can get help if they post their question on the message board. KarmaGirl and a lot of others make sure those questions are answered. Nothing wrong with that either.
The message board is also being used for entertainment and to socialize. That's OK with me too.
Skinners can upload their skins and frankly that is all they can do on this site. Now this worries me. Like I said before times have changed and so are the ways skinners work. You cannot change how they work, but you can help them in their creative process. The Experimental section and the HotList would just be an aid. Nothing more, nothing less.
Some skinners feel that they should be number one (and of course it is great if your skins are rewarded by high download counts and ratings), but not all skinners feel that way. A lot of skinners skin because they love to do it. Some others see it as an art form. Every skinner may have his or her own reason why to skin.
It is hard to get even attention for this thread, because skinners are a minority. Lately we have seen posts about hijacking the topic in threads. I would go a step further. I feel that lately the message board is completely hijacked by nonsense, politics and religion. Interesting and fun subjects (that should be there to stay), but they have nothing to do with skinning. It will drive skinners away from sites like these.
I am just trying to find ways to help skinners in their work they enjoy and the skins they give us for free.
If you think about it then it is an investment to new great and creative skins in the future.
MadIce hopes that it will get back some of the "community" feeling too
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CerebroJD
Reply #42 Wednesday, May 14, 2003 7:55 PM
Reply #42 Wednesday, May 14, 2003 7:55 PM
You could make it so someone could post their skin in the "Skinners Messageboard" section and get some constructive feedback from the skinners on how to improve it. Like a comments section only in messageboard format. Umm, its hard to explain. Am I making this somewhat clear? I hope so. BTW this section should not be accesible to the public at large. Only people who make skins should be allowed in. Like level 2+. Just to keep the rifraff down. Umm, thats about it for now. I'll do more brainstorming tonite.
CerebroJD goes to bed
CerebroJD goes to bed
MadIce
Reply #43 Thursday, May 15, 2003 11:33 AM
Reply #43 Thursday, May 15, 2003 11:33 AM
CerebroJD: Looks like you are proposing the same thing. Let me explain the details a bit. Hang on.
MadIce
Reply #44 Thursday, May 15, 2003 11:34 AM
Reply #44 Thursday, May 15, 2003 11:34 AM
Let's explain it a bit more. The Skinning message board (as suggested by Koasati) should be in combination with a library section that works much like regular sections. There should be a large and a small preview (much like the ScreenShot section, so you can show what is going on, a ZIP upload/download facility (which contains the current update), and a comments section (to exchange ideas). That comments section is in fact a single threaded message board. Just like the other skin libraries have. Its major difference is what it does NOT have: A download counter and a rating system. Another difference is that the skin will be renoved once it has been completed or after an inactivity of, lets say, 3 months.
The skin/wallpaper is in a development stage and therefore downloads should not be available to the public. But it should be available for other skinners to test. We have to find a way to make sure that only skinners can access this facility, because skinners are probably not interested (yet) in what the general public thinks. Afterall they are creating, experimenting or learning. We have to find a way so that first time skinners can access these facilities too. I am still thinking how we should achieve that. If skinners are interested in comments of the general public they can use the already existing ScreenShot section (which can be done by linking to the ScreenShot library).
We should give non-skinners read-only access rights to the comments and prohibit access to the ZIP-file. That would give the general public a chance to see what the skinners are cooking. It would also prevent moderated work to be distributed by the system and it would prevent buggy or incomplete work being distributed.
As an extra facility whe should have a message board dedicated to skinning. As we can see in the existing message board it is easy to make links to other parts of the site (or web). Moderation is sinple. Every thread not related to skinning will be deleted. This message board does not replace the existing one.
Who is getting access to these facilties?
1) Skinners (site members that already have uploaded skins on the site): Full access.
2) New skinners (site members that are planning a skin for the first time): Full access.
3) General public (site members that do skin): Limited access (as desscribed above).
What needs to be made?
1) A new section (much like all other sections) without a download counter and rating system.
2) The comment sections should be able to contain links to other parts of the site.
3) Full access to the new section for skinners (comments and downloads).
4) Limited access to the new section for non-skinners (read-only comments, no download).
5) Check for a 3 month period of inactivity. When inactive the skin will be deleted.
6) A new message board dedicated to skinning (exactly the same as the existing one).
The code for the Skinning message board can simply be reused.
The ScreenShot section is already present. We can just link to it.
Because the skin/wallpaper is stored in ZIP-files all apps can be supported.
How can you get access for the first time?
1) If you have already uploaded a skin or wallpaper access is automatic.
2) If you hever never uploaded and are a site member then mail to one of the admins.
An admin will not be able to refuse you as a skinners, even if you never made anything. Like Jafo said: "The upload area for feedback would probably be only 'checked' for questionable content, and not for any other 'standard'".
The skin/wallpaper is in a development stage and therefore downloads should not be available to the public. But it should be available for other skinners to test. We have to find a way to make sure that only skinners can access this facility, because skinners are probably not interested (yet) in what the general public thinks. Afterall they are creating, experimenting or learning. We have to find a way so that first time skinners can access these facilities too. I am still thinking how we should achieve that. If skinners are interested in comments of the general public they can use the already existing ScreenShot section (which can be done by linking to the ScreenShot library).
We should give non-skinners read-only access rights to the comments and prohibit access to the ZIP-file. That would give the general public a chance to see what the skinners are cooking. It would also prevent moderated work to be distributed by the system and it would prevent buggy or incomplete work being distributed.
As an extra facility whe should have a message board dedicated to skinning. As we can see in the existing message board it is easy to make links to other parts of the site (or web). Moderation is sinple. Every thread not related to skinning will be deleted. This message board does not replace the existing one.
Who is getting access to these facilties?
1) Skinners (site members that already have uploaded skins on the site): Full access.
2) New skinners (site members that are planning a skin for the first time): Full access.
3) General public (site members that do skin): Limited access (as desscribed above).
What needs to be made?
1) A new section (much like all other sections) without a download counter and rating system.
2) The comment sections should be able to contain links to other parts of the site.
3) Full access to the new section for skinners (comments and downloads).
4) Limited access to the new section for non-skinners (read-only comments, no download).
5) Check for a 3 month period of inactivity. When inactive the skin will be deleted.
6) A new message board dedicated to skinning (exactly the same as the existing one).
The code for the Skinning message board can simply be reused.
The ScreenShot section is already present. We can just link to it.
Because the skin/wallpaper is stored in ZIP-files all apps can be supported.
How can you get access for the first time?
1) If you have already uploaded a skin or wallpaper access is automatic.
2) If you hever never uploaded and are a site member then mail to one of the admins.
An admin will not be able to refuse you as a skinners, even if you never made anything. Like Jafo said: "The upload area for feedback would probably be only 'checked' for questionable content, and not for any other 'standard'".
jcg
Reply #45 Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:01 PM
Ok, it wouldn't be the first time.
Reply #45 Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:01 PM
| #41 by JourneyMan WOM - 5/14/2003 5:27:29 PM You missed something jcg. |
Ok, it wouldn't be the first time.
CerebroJD
Reply #46 Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:09 PM
Reply #46 Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:09 PM
MadIce that is it exactly! I think that would be great!
c242
Reply #47 Friday, May 16, 2003 7:09 AM
Only one word : YES!!!
Reply #47 Friday, May 16, 2003 7:09 AM
| A skinning-topic-only message board would be nice too |
Only one word : YES!!!
MadIce
Reply #48 Monday, May 19, 2003 6:51 AM
Reply #48 Monday, May 19, 2003 6:51 AM
MadIce hopes that the new proposals for 3 message boards will not distract from my proposal for an Experimental section.
And yes, I am in favour of a skinning message board (like I said before), but only in addition to the Experimental section.
What is the opinion of the admins about the proposal or is the Skinning message board used instead of the idea?
[Message Edited]
And yes, I am in favour of a skinning message board (like I said before), but only in addition to the Experimental section.
What is the opinion of the admins about the proposal or is the Skinning message board used instead of the idea?
[Message Edited]
Koasati
Reply #49 Monday, May 19, 2003 7:01 AM
Reply #49 Monday, May 19, 2003 7:01 AM
I'm glad you brought this up again............. I was about to do the same.
Your proposal is still being considered, as far as I know. I still love the idea. I think it would be a great help to all skinners, new, old, and in between. 
MadIce
Reply #50 Tuesday, May 20, 2003 6:43 AM
Reply #50 Tuesday, May 20, 2003 6:43 AM
Ah. Good. I'll make sure that I bump this thread once in a while to keep the idea alive.
MadIce
Reply #51 Tuesday, May 20, 2003 6:43 AM
Reply #51 Tuesday, May 20, 2003 6:43 AM
Ah. Good. I'll make sure that I bump this thread once in a while to keep the idea alive.
pjpowell
Reply #52 Tuesday, May 20, 2003 6:57 AM
Reply #52 Tuesday, May 20, 2003 6:57 AM
MadIce: When you said once in a while I didn't realise you meant every 8 seconds.
[email protected]
Reply #55 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 6:46 PM
Reply #55 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 6:46 PM
If anyone read 55 messages down, I like it.
PixelCargo
Reply #56 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:12 PM
Reply #56 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:12 PM
Ratings and comments tell me what to improve on. I like wincustomize just the way it is so shh.
MadIce
Reply #57 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:39 PM
Reply #57 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:39 PM
GLPort: The rating, download count and comments in your wallpaper section will not change. Are you happy again?
[Message Edited]
[Message Edited]
Doomgaze
Reply #58 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:10 PM
Reply #58 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:10 PM
We NEED stuff like this.
We NEED something to make it feel "alive" again.
Too many people are way too attached to having the "best" skin out there and are forgetting that it was fun. The whole elitist attitude towards it is so dry and beaten like a dead horse now that its sickening.
I feel like the community is dying.
And I'm probably right.
Howabout SOMETHING to breath life into it again?
We NEED something to make it feel "alive" again.
Too many people are way too attached to having the "best" skin out there and are forgetting that it was fun. The whole elitist attitude towards it is so dry and beaten like a dead horse now that its sickening.
I feel like the community is dying.
And I'm probably right.
Howabout SOMETHING to breath life into it again?
PixelCargo
Reply #59 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:45 PM
Reply #59 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:45 PM
Ok so only I will be able to see downloads and comments and ratings? Why cant we just get a check box or something for this option.
MadIce
Reply #60 Thursday, May 22, 2003 12:44 AM
Reply #60 Thursday, May 22, 2003 12:44 AM
GLport: I told you before: nothing will change for you. People with the title "Apprentice" should care about this community. You obviously do not. You don't even read what I write. The only thing you care about are downloads, comments and ratings.
Now move along. Nothing to see here.
[Message Edited]
Now move along. Nothing to see here.
[Message Edited]
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Reply #41 Wednesday, May 14, 2003 5:27 PM