T-Man's Religous Debate for Doreen
Wednesday, April 30, 2003 by T-Man | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
My God is right and your god is wrong. Unless of course your god is the same as my God. But in either case, I am right.
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paxx
Reply #82 Friday, May 2, 2003 6:44 AM
Reply #82 Friday, May 2, 2003 6:44 AM
I don't believe in god. I don't believe in religions.
I believe in a few things though.
I believe the message of the man called Jesus was a good one. One of love, respect and forgiveness.
I don't believe Jesus dies on the cross. He was still alive when they took him down. There are a number of writtings about this. Although most of his disciples didn't know about it. Jesus was "rescued" by a rich priest by the name of Joseph of Arimatia (not sure about the English spelling of that) and a few other jews belonging to the same sect as Jesus was (the Essenians)
Jesus was jewish. Peter and the other disciples were also jewish. There was never any intention of starting a new religion. It's a rich jewish roman (Paul, or Saul - his jewish name) who started the official christian religion, with the intention of being its leader. He even had many disagreements with Peter about this fact. Peter and the other disciples refused the idea of starting a new religion. They still considered themselves as jews. The whole catholic religion is a scheme, mainly made up by Saul.
Anyway. I did a lot of readings on this. The fact is tat most religions - and the christian religion is no different - has the main purpose of controling the masses and serve their own purpose.
Although I don't believe in God, I think that believing in God and loving God is one thing tat I respect in others; but I also believe that there is little good in organised worshiping such as what religions are.
I believe in a few things though.
I believe the message of the man called Jesus was a good one. One of love, respect and forgiveness.
I don't believe Jesus dies on the cross. He was still alive when they took him down. There are a number of writtings about this. Although most of his disciples didn't know about it. Jesus was "rescued" by a rich priest by the name of Joseph of Arimatia (not sure about the English spelling of that) and a few other jews belonging to the same sect as Jesus was (the Essenians)
Jesus was jewish. Peter and the other disciples were also jewish. There was never any intention of starting a new religion. It's a rich jewish roman (Paul, or Saul - his jewish name) who started the official christian religion, with the intention of being its leader. He even had many disagreements with Peter about this fact. Peter and the other disciples refused the idea of starting a new religion. They still considered themselves as jews. The whole catholic religion is a scheme, mainly made up by Saul.
Anyway. I did a lot of readings on this. The fact is tat most religions - and the christian religion is no different - has the main purpose of controling the masses and serve their own purpose.
Although I don't believe in God, I think that believing in God and loving God is one thing tat I respect in others; but I also believe that there is little good in organised worshiping such as what religions are.
IPlural
Reply #83 Friday, May 2, 2003 9:35 AM
Reply #83 Friday, May 2, 2003 9:35 AM
religion is death insurance
in my pov
20 years ago I stepped into traffic in front of cars to carry a frightened dog that so many people took the time to blow their horn at as they tried to scare it from being in their way so they could get to that most important place instead of stopping.
If someone breaks down at the traffic light, instead of blowing my horn I pull to the side of the road and help them push the car out of traffic lanes and shake my head in bafflement of those who are so self absorbed they would rather put more stress and pressure on someone in need.
I pull off the road when I see someone with a flat and no apparent means of changing it and offer assistance, out of gas, get in the truck/car and I will drive you to get gas and bring you back with your can of gas and make sure you get your vehicle started before I leave.
I give my tithe to those on the side of the road who live in the woods, car, truck or below an underpass. Some change or a couple of dollars might feed them, those with them, give them some gas to get where they need, or they might spend it on something to drink which is their choice to make. I hope it is for something positive to help them but it is their choice because at that point I have done what I can for them at that specific the moment. If I can or find a way to do more I will.
I've my son who is serving in the USCG for a year now and is just 18, my daughter who is 8 and
another son who is 18 that has enlisted in the USAF that heads to basic in August, his name is Chris. He is my son by choice not birth, we are his parents by choice in his opinion and heart. His Father is in prison because of drug trafficking and his mother spent time in prison for stealing the life savings of an elderly man she was a home nurse for. Chris was taken into a families home, a good family from all accounts. The father was a Boyscout Leader, Baseball and Soccer Coach, while also working his business supplying Restaurants he also is one of the leaders at their church. His wife is running the house and also a school teacher at the church. Chris first got high when he was 10 years old, at 12 his father was taking him around with him on drug deals and feeding him Valium, smoking dew and drinking beer. By 13 he had him snorting cocaine, blacking out from being drunk, 13 1/2 he had a friend give Chris his first tattoo. 14 dad goes to prison, mom goes to prison, gets taken into a very religious home with good intentions. Chris starts skipping school, school does not call, the son of the psudo parents is a life long friend of Chris and he has a friend who's parents travel all the time and they get into the Wet bar on a regular basis, Chris gets a call from his cousin who gives him some valium and they get drunk and down. Family finds this all out after the school calls the house and the boys come home they sit them down and get the whole story. Chris is now evil and is going to be turned over to the state and their birth son is sent to a live in drunk rehab for one month. Chris stays with the state in Juvenile Detention Center(kiddie prison) for a month and gets sent to a large state home where he waits to be put into a foster home. He runs away and my son hears about it and hunts him down and brings him home. That is how my second son came to be, birth by situational cause and effect?
Anyway, my point is this. I am not religious, and I do not know exactly what God is or if there is one, but I do not feel there is a God as depicted by any religious means. I also KNOW for a fact that if there is a God as depicted by religious means, I want nothing to do with them/it. Anything or anyone all powerful who allows the things to happen on this planet as they do is not anything/anyone I want anything to do with. If they were a human being I would not have anything to do with them so why would I bow to them in any other form? (again mpov)
Religion/God, yeah it can be a very positive thing, it can be a very shallow thing no matter how one would argue just how deeply the believe and follow, it can be an extremal destructive thing which history proves out over and over again.
People need to start taking responsibility for their thoughts, feelings and the things they do or do not do across the board and stop dodging them and passing it off to God or Satan. Until they do one of the larger walls standing in front of humanities social evolution is going to block the way. And no I do not mean religion/god, I mean exactly what I say, quit passing the buck of responsibility and assume what one owns.
Oh and get rid of this assumption that one has to have a middle man between them and their god. Seems to me most of the confusion comes about because of the interpreter people put between them and god.
Maybe (None shalt come before me) meant that people shouldn't allow anyone to come between them and God.
Not that any other religion is not real.
Same applies to the one that everyone uses to prove theirs is the one true religion.
Monty Python and Eddie Izzard have some ideas I like
in my pov
20 years ago I stepped into traffic in front of cars to carry a frightened dog that so many people took the time to blow their horn at as they tried to scare it from being in their way so they could get to that most important place instead of stopping.
If someone breaks down at the traffic light, instead of blowing my horn I pull to the side of the road and help them push the car out of traffic lanes and shake my head in bafflement of those who are so self absorbed they would rather put more stress and pressure on someone in need.
I pull off the road when I see someone with a flat and no apparent means of changing it and offer assistance, out of gas, get in the truck/car and I will drive you to get gas and bring you back with your can of gas and make sure you get your vehicle started before I leave.
I give my tithe to those on the side of the road who live in the woods, car, truck or below an underpass. Some change or a couple of dollars might feed them, those with them, give them some gas to get where they need, or they might spend it on something to drink which is their choice to make. I hope it is for something positive to help them but it is their choice because at that point I have done what I can for them at that specific the moment. If I can or find a way to do more I will.
I've my son who is serving in the USCG for a year now and is just 18, my daughter who is 8 and
another son who is 18 that has enlisted in the USAF that heads to basic in August, his name is Chris. He is my son by choice not birth, we are his parents by choice in his opinion and heart. His Father is in prison because of drug trafficking and his mother spent time in prison for stealing the life savings of an elderly man she was a home nurse for. Chris was taken into a families home, a good family from all accounts. The father was a Boyscout Leader, Baseball and Soccer Coach, while also working his business supplying Restaurants he also is one of the leaders at their church. His wife is running the house and also a school teacher at the church. Chris first got high when he was 10 years old, at 12 his father was taking him around with him on drug deals and feeding him Valium, smoking dew and drinking beer. By 13 he had him snorting cocaine, blacking out from being drunk, 13 1/2 he had a friend give Chris his first tattoo. 14 dad goes to prison, mom goes to prison, gets taken into a very religious home with good intentions. Chris starts skipping school, school does not call, the son of the psudo parents is a life long friend of Chris and he has a friend who's parents travel all the time and they get into the Wet bar on a regular basis, Chris gets a call from his cousin who gives him some valium and they get drunk and down. Family finds this all out after the school calls the house and the boys come home they sit them down and get the whole story. Chris is now evil and is going to be turned over to the state and their birth son is sent to a live in drunk rehab for one month. Chris stays with the state in Juvenile Detention Center(kiddie prison) for a month and gets sent to a large state home where he waits to be put into a foster home. He runs away and my son hears about it and hunts him down and brings him home. That is how my second son came to be, birth by situational cause and effect?
Anyway, my point is this. I am not religious, and I do not know exactly what God is or if there is one, but I do not feel there is a God as depicted by any religious means. I also KNOW for a fact that if there is a God as depicted by religious means, I want nothing to do with them/it. Anything or anyone all powerful who allows the things to happen on this planet as they do is not anything/anyone I want anything to do with. If they were a human being I would not have anything to do with them so why would I bow to them in any other form? (again mpov)
Religion/God, yeah it can be a very positive thing, it can be a very shallow thing no matter how one would argue just how deeply the believe and follow, it can be an extremal destructive thing which history proves out over and over again.
People need to start taking responsibility for their thoughts, feelings and the things they do or do not do across the board and stop dodging them and passing it off to God or Satan. Until they do one of the larger walls standing in front of humanities social evolution is going to block the way. And no I do not mean religion/god, I mean exactly what I say, quit passing the buck of responsibility and assume what one owns.
Oh and get rid of this assumption that one has to have a middle man between them and their god. Seems to me most of the confusion comes about because of the interpreter people put between them and god.
Maybe (None shalt come before me) meant that people shouldn't allow anyone to come between them and God.
Not that any other religion is not real.
Same applies to the one that everyone uses to prove theirs is the one true religion.
Monty Python and Eddie Izzard have some ideas I like
IPlural
Reply #84 Friday, May 2, 2003 9:40 AM
Reply #84 Friday, May 2, 2003 9:40 AM
styl
Pagan are evil and those who follow em are in league with the Devil
actually I like the idea of humans living *within* nature and being a part of the spiritual essence and balance along with everything else.
Pagan are evil and those who follow em are in league with the Devil
actually I like the idea of humans living *within* nature and being a part of the spiritual essence and balance along with everything else.
Bangkokboy
Reply #85 Friday, May 2, 2003 11:19 AM
Reply #85 Friday, May 2, 2003 11:19 AM
paxx - interesting story, but it overlooks one point. when Joseph of Arimethia took the body, the Jewish religious leaders had Pontius Pilate send a roman guard detail with him to secure the tomb and guard it, so that Jesus's followers could not steal the body and then claim that He had risen. the penalty for any roman soldier who failed at any guard duty was being flayed ankles to neck with a flagellum in front of the assembled roman troops, and then mercifully being finished off by drawing and quartering, crucifixion, or some other method. those roman guards were acutely aware of what their fate would be if that body in the tomb disappeared for any reason whatsoever. the bible records that when the soldiers saw the empty tomb, they "shook like dead men" - knowing that they would soon be dead men. 
joetheblow
Reply #86 Friday, May 2, 2003 12:35 PM
Reply #86 Friday, May 2, 2003 12:35 PM
wow IPlural! that post was as long as mine!!
we should get out more.
we should get out more.
joetheblow
Reply #87 Friday, May 2, 2003 12:43 PM
Reply #87 Friday, May 2, 2003 12:43 PM
Hey, I said Him. See; its in my posts.
You can quote me Doreen...
At least now you can.
(I also, obviously, said Her to... what is the point of that? I'm special)
You can quote me Doreen...
At least now you can.
(I also, obviously, said Her to... what is the point of that? I'm special)
Lady_Akasha
Reply #88 Friday, May 2, 2003 1:40 PM
Reply #88 Friday, May 2, 2003 1:40 PM
»"#78 by Skinner Styl skinner - 5/2/2003 12:36:35 AM
»Anyone knows what wicca is? and if so, what you think about it?? "
Wiccan in itself has only been around since the 1950''s. It was started by a man called Gerald Gardner. Many called him the father of Wicca. Wicca is bascially the revival of the "Old Religion".
Wicca means witch in the days of old, back in europe. Wiccans generally practice SpellCrafting and several publications note that the word Wicca was chosen as it is more of a memorial for all the witches that were unmercifully killed at the hands of the church/crusades, back in days long ago. Wicca in itself is more of a neo-pagan path. However, not all pagans practice magik, and not all who practice The Craft are pagans. Although the greater portion of Wiccans are also pagan, and they believe in "Gods" rather than one male god. A goddess and her consort the God, it could of the old greek, roman, egyptian, norse mythologies.
Wicca like every religion or path, as long as the intent of goodness is involved... it''s wonderful.
[Message Edited]
»Anyone knows what wicca is? and if so, what you think about it?? "
Wiccan in itself has only been around since the 1950''s. It was started by a man called Gerald Gardner. Many called him the father of Wicca. Wicca is bascially the revival of the "Old Religion".
Wicca means witch in the days of old, back in europe. Wiccans generally practice SpellCrafting and several publications note that the word Wicca was chosen as it is more of a memorial for all the witches that were unmercifully killed at the hands of the church/crusades, back in days long ago. Wicca in itself is more of a neo-pagan path. However, not all pagans practice magik, and not all who practice The Craft are pagans. Although the greater portion of Wiccans are also pagan, and they believe in "Gods" rather than one male god. A goddess and her consort the God, it could of the old greek, roman, egyptian, norse mythologies.
Wicca like every religion or path, as long as the intent of goodness is involved... it''s wonderful.
[Message Edited]
Lady_Akasha
Reply #89 Friday, May 2, 2003 1:42 PM
Reply #89 Friday, May 2, 2003 1:42 PM
»"Pagan are evil and those who follow em are in league with the Devil "
May I ask how many pagans you've known? What are you basing this on?
There is good and bad in every single path/religion.
May I ask how many pagans you've known? What are you basing this on?
There is good and bad in every single path/religion.
craeonics
Reply #90 Friday, May 2, 2003 2:27 PM
Reply #90 Friday, May 2, 2003 2:27 PM
You can only be in league with the devil if you believe in one. Therefore this can never apply to a true Wiccan.
Styl> my head is full of (useless) trivia, hence why I always win with Trivial Pursuit. Has little to do with intelligence, more with remembering the average tidbit here and there.
IPlural> Even though it was a long one, that was a great post. People should take their own responsibility and not hide behind others (be it divinities or people).
Styl> my head is full of (useless) trivia, hence why I always win with Trivial Pursuit. Has little to do with intelligence, more with remembering the average tidbit here and there.
IPlural> Even though it was a long one, that was a great post. People should take their own responsibility and not hide behind others (be it divinities or people).
mooshoo
Reply #91 Friday, May 2, 2003 3:57 PM
Reply #91 Friday, May 2, 2003 3:57 PM
isn't that why most non-believers are so set in being non-believers? Because the believers condemn the non-believers? It's sad, because that's exactly what I see the non-believers doing here, and everywhere. They preach "don't condemn me just because I don't agree with you!" yet they are calling me and fellow Christians brainwashed, un-intelligent, and what not... :-/
I'm sorry I don't agree with you, but that doesn't make me any less intelligent than you.
I'm sorry I don't agree with you, but that doesn't make me any less intelligent than you.
IPlural
Reply #92 Friday, May 2, 2003 4:43 PM
Reply #92 Friday, May 2, 2003 4:43 PM
>> #88 by Madam Lady Akasha
>> Wicca like every religion or path, as long
>> as the intent of goodness is involved... it''s
>> wonderful.
exactly so
>>> #89 by Madam Lady Akasha - 5/2/2003 1:42:46 PM
»"Pagan are evil and those who follow em are in league with the Devil "
>>> May I ask how many pagans you've known? What are you basing this on?
>>> There is good and bad in every single path/religion
I was being cynical, didn't notice the smile ending that sentence?
Also I would take it a step further and say that not only is there
positive and negative in all paths/religions, but also each and
ever single human being. The choice is theirs...
Humanity holds my faith love is my religion and nature is my church, by choice.
#91 by mooshoo
No bashing intended by me in the least.
>> Wicca like every religion or path, as long
>> as the intent of goodness is involved... it''s
>> wonderful.
exactly so
>>> #89 by Madam Lady Akasha - 5/2/2003 1:42:46 PM
»"Pagan are evil and those who follow em are in league with the Devil "
>>> May I ask how many pagans you've known? What are you basing this on?
>>> There is good and bad in every single path/religion
I was being cynical, didn't notice the smile ending that sentence?
Also I would take it a step further and say that not only is there
positive and negative in all paths/religions, but also each and
ever single human being. The choice is theirs...
Humanity holds my faith love is my religion and nature is my church, by choice.
#91 by mooshoo
No bashing intended by me in the least.
Weaksid
Reply #93 Friday, May 2, 2003 4:50 PM
Reply #93 Friday, May 2, 2003 4:50 PM
Weaksid walks in, looks around, and says I'm not touching this one with a 100mile pole.
Weaksid just says... This is going to end up a very very long thread. Then leaves.
Weaksid just says... This is going to end up a very very long thread. Then leaves.
Doreen
Reply #94 Friday, May 2, 2003 8:11 PM
Reply #94 Friday, May 2, 2003 8:11 PM
hehe joe!
well not up to me what ppl call him/her/it? I have my own beliefs of what God is I don't base them on what other ppl believe or tell me, I only went to Church in the past to "hear" someone else read the Bible to me cuz I am too lazy to read it myself actually, but I feel out of place in a Church for some reason (yes I'm crazy) hehe
well not up to me what ppl call him/her/it? I have my own beliefs of what God is I don't base them on what other ppl believe or tell me, I only went to Church in the past to "hear" someone else read the Bible to me cuz I am too lazy to read it myself actually, but I feel out of place in a Church for some reason (yes I'm crazy) hehe
Doreen
Reply #95 Friday, May 2, 2003 8:14 PM
Reply #95 Friday, May 2, 2003 8:14 PM
I have several Churches all around me but if I do decide to go back to Church I decided I will probably go back to the original Church I went to before a while back not sure yet, specially since rain hit tonight and is suppose to rain all weekend now so now I've got another excuse not to go... (evil thoughts again) hehe
snarph
Reply #96 Friday, May 2, 2003 8:21 PM
Reply #96 Friday, May 2, 2003 8:21 PM
no mention of the dyslexic agnostic who stayed up all night loosing sleep wondering if there really was a Dog
Jafo
Reply #99 Friday, May 2, 2003 11:45 PM
Reply #99 Friday, May 2, 2003 11:45 PM
Religion is the opiate of the masses...
[I wonder if that makes the Crusades a 'drug war'?]...
[I wonder if that makes the Crusades a 'drug war'?]...
Lady_Akasha
Reply #100 Friday, May 2, 2003 11:46 PM
Reply #100 Friday, May 2, 2003 11:46 PM
#92 by IPlural - 5/2/2003 4:43:03 PM »"I was being cynical, didn't notice the smile ending that sentence?"
I'm sorry, I misunderstood. My aplogies.
#92 by IPlural - 5/2/2003 4:43:03 PM
Also I would take it a step further and say that not only is there
positive and negative in all paths/religions, but also each and
ever single human being. The choice is theirs...
You're 100% correct, I agree with you totally.
I'm sorry, I misunderstood. My aplogies.
#92 by IPlural - 5/2/2003 4:43:03 PM
Also I would take it a step further and say that not only is there
positive and negative in all paths/religions, but also each and
ever single human being. The choice is theirs...
You're 100% correct, I agree with you totally.
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Reply #81 Friday, May 2, 2003 6:38 AM
If I'm right I am having a great time now and will have a greater time later in Heaven.
If I'm wrong I lose nothing because I am still having fun and enjoying myself now and later if that's the end who cares. I won't know anything about it.
But I have no doubts.