US is going to war tomarrow... dang...
Sunday, March 16, 2003 by IPlural | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
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bakerstreet
Reply #1442 Monday, April 7, 2003 9:46 PM
Reply #1442 Monday, April 7, 2003 9:46 PM
They laughed at Carter, and it was a lot more sour when we just left the special ops smoldering in the sand. Wanna talk about Clinton? A hummer was not a mode of transit during his administration. 'Black Hawk Down' is now a training video. What the world really laughs at are people who talk big, get manhandled, and go home crying.
If anything will be snickered-at this time it will be our 'Woody Allen'-esque introspection and self doubt. Give the West enough sad-eyed kids and you can even have them volunteering as human shields. These people are willing to shove guns in the hands of 15 year-olds and send them to waste the enemy's ammunition. They are willing to kill their neighbors for propaganda value.
What do those people see on CNN? Well-fed college students in Birkenstocks laying in the streets of New York City covered with fake blood, screaming to protect people who hate them. People like Saddam Hussein don't understand people like Paxx and DavidK, they don't see wisdom or pacifism. All they see is weakness. It is their fondest desire to make a bigger dog tuck his tail and bow his head. They look at Europe and America and see easily-victimized people who are ready run home if a few 'expendable' citizens get thrown in front of a tank. Yes, we look like fools...
but not dangerous fools...
If anything will be snickered-at this time it will be our 'Woody Allen'-esque introspection and self doubt. Give the West enough sad-eyed kids and you can even have them volunteering as human shields. These people are willing to shove guns in the hands of 15 year-olds and send them to waste the enemy's ammunition. They are willing to kill their neighbors for propaganda value.
What do those people see on CNN? Well-fed college students in Birkenstocks laying in the streets of New York City covered with fake blood, screaming to protect people who hate them. People like Saddam Hussein don't understand people like Paxx and DavidK, they don't see wisdom or pacifism. All they see is weakness. It is their fondest desire to make a bigger dog tuck his tail and bow his head. They look at Europe and America and see easily-victimized people who are ready run home if a few 'expendable' citizens get thrown in front of a tank. Yes, we look like fools...
but not dangerous fools...
DavidK
Reply #1443 Monday, April 7, 2003 10:10 PM
Reply #1443 Monday, April 7, 2003 10:10 PM
Good response Baker.... and I'm glad to see you addressed something I actually said.
Ever notice the guys that seem to get the rotten end of all this stuff are the ordinary people? Whether it's your gung-ho boys with guns getting slaughtered or the sad-eyed kids in a demonstration getting gassed and clubbed or the civilians, living ordinary lives, that get bombed, straffed, napalmed and poisoned.
Did you notice that every one of Bush's administration evaded serving in combat? Bush himself was AWOL from his cheesy assignment at a Air National Guard post for 9 months. A duty he got through the political influence of his father. Seen any oil company executives even getting their feet dirty lately? How about the pharmaceutical company execs or even the wealthy tycoons in Iraq. Think any of them got blown up? Probably not. On CNN they made a big point of how the wealthy citizens of Baghdad were able to flee long before the fighting started.
We're all people and we all bleed. The hungry and impoverished seem to be the best fuel for this machine that thrives on conflict but even the fat young sons and daughters of the middle class make excellent cannon fodder. But you won't see the sons and daughters of the war makers, the industrial barons or the obscenely wealthy being subjected to such inhumane abuse. They have the privilige of being the ruling class. The ones who know how important it is to generate Saddams and Osamas to perpetuate the lie that there's not enough food or water for us all. That only in regional conflict can man attain his highest calling of liberating compassion. Only through the deaths of thousands do they maintain the lie that there is not enough bounty on this earth for its people. There is plenty for everyone, just not enough to keep the war machine fat because it feeds on human suffering and death. It's you, and me, and all our friends that are the real target of this conflict.
Ever notice the guys that seem to get the rotten end of all this stuff are the ordinary people? Whether it's your gung-ho boys with guns getting slaughtered or the sad-eyed kids in a demonstration getting gassed and clubbed or the civilians, living ordinary lives, that get bombed, straffed, napalmed and poisoned.
Did you notice that every one of Bush's administration evaded serving in combat? Bush himself was AWOL from his cheesy assignment at a Air National Guard post for 9 months. A duty he got through the political influence of his father. Seen any oil company executives even getting their feet dirty lately? How about the pharmaceutical company execs or even the wealthy tycoons in Iraq. Think any of them got blown up? Probably not. On CNN they made a big point of how the wealthy citizens of Baghdad were able to flee long before the fighting started.
We're all people and we all bleed. The hungry and impoverished seem to be the best fuel for this machine that thrives on conflict but even the fat young sons and daughters of the middle class make excellent cannon fodder. But you won't see the sons and daughters of the war makers, the industrial barons or the obscenely wealthy being subjected to such inhumane abuse. They have the privilige of being the ruling class. The ones who know how important it is to generate Saddams and Osamas to perpetuate the lie that there's not enough food or water for us all. That only in regional conflict can man attain his highest calling of liberating compassion. Only through the deaths of thousands do they maintain the lie that there is not enough bounty on this earth for its people. There is plenty for everyone, just not enough to keep the war machine fat because it feeds on human suffering and death. It's you, and me, and all our friends that are the real target of this conflict.
JamMeister33
Reply #1444 Monday, April 7, 2003 10:20 PM
Reply #1444 Monday, April 7, 2003 10:20 PM
#1447 by Developer wombat_1 - 4/7/2003 9:18:19 PM
jam, what's this 'we gunna kick butt' rubbish?
'we' implies your participation ...?????
Wombat, I am an American citizen, patriotic to the core, I am part of the overall 'WE' of the American people...
When I say "We gonna kick some big booty" I mean 'WE' the American people as a country, the finest country on Earth!
jam, what's this 'we gunna kick butt' rubbish?
'we' implies your participation ...?????
Wombat, I am an American citizen, patriotic to the core, I am part of the overall 'WE' of the American people...
When I say "We gonna kick some big booty" I mean 'WE' the American people as a country, the finest country on Earth!
Jafo
Reply #1445 Monday, April 7, 2003 10:37 PM
Reply #1445 Monday, April 7, 2003 10:37 PM
Now that's where Aussies tend to differ....we don't expound the virtues of Oz over all other countries as 'the finest country on Earth'.....usually, when pushed, we'll just say we wouldn't want to live anywhere else....
I've been to a few countries....that was 30 years ago....and it was as an Architecture tour, so wasn't for very long.....therefore my actual KNOWLEDGE of life and living conditions, etc in other countries is second-hand, at best, so therefore coloured by external opinion/prejudice.
My guess is thet taking into account issues such as pitiful gun-control, privatizing of medical assistance/benefits, etc, I may just want to tend to put the USA down a notch.
Yes, Australia under Imperial rule kinda trashed the rights of the Aboriginals...so a mark down to us...but we were still under the wing of the UK, back then...
Then of course, there's the problem of the '500 Nations'....[or lack of]...but that's down to the Spanish and English and French, I guess.....and John Wayne, of course..
I'm sure there are possibly 'better' countries on this planet than any of these mentioned....but if it's all about penis-envy then the great old US of A has the biggest of almost everything.....except Ayres Rock, of course...
I've been to a few countries....that was 30 years ago....and it was as an Architecture tour, so wasn't for very long.....therefore my actual KNOWLEDGE of life and living conditions, etc in other countries is second-hand, at best, so therefore coloured by external opinion/prejudice.
My guess is thet taking into account issues such as pitiful gun-control, privatizing of medical assistance/benefits, etc, I may just want to tend to put the USA down a notch.
Yes, Australia under Imperial rule kinda trashed the rights of the Aboriginals...so a mark down to us...but we were still under the wing of the UK, back then...
Then of course, there's the problem of the '500 Nations'....[or lack of]...but that's down to the Spanish and English and French, I guess.....and John Wayne, of course..
I'm sure there are possibly 'better' countries on this planet than any of these mentioned....but if it's all about penis-envy then the great old US of A has the biggest of almost everything.....except Ayres Rock, of course...
wombat_1
Reply #1446 Monday, April 7, 2003 10:58 PM
Reply #1446 Monday, April 7, 2003 10:58 PM
But does it ever need a bucket load of Viagra to make it move .... 
Now I'll get the flick for sure ...
Now I'll get the flick for sure ...
bakerstreet
Reply #1447 Monday, April 7, 2003 11:13 PM
Reply #1447 Monday, April 7, 2003 11:13 PM
DavidK: I have a deep respect for you and Paxx, and I know I give you hell. Thing it, it isn't so much that I disagree with your beliefs, it is that I don't think they are functional.
There is a reason Plato reserved his Ideals, his perfect prototypes, as untouchable... somewhere other than here. Machiavelli is on the other end of the scale, accepting only failure as a guide for morality.
I see myself as Stoic, tending toward Marcus Auralius' description of such. Natural order *has* to be taken into account when one creates a standard operating procedure. Anything that seeks to ignore the way nature functions, is doomed to failure. War is a law; greed is a law, it has always been here, and it is self-defeating to write it out of your system. You shouldn't embrace it either, because you see what it does to those who do, but you cannot act as though it doesn't exist.
I like dogs. I know people who love them and get bitten a lot, and raise generally disagreeable dogs. If you treat a dog like a person, he will impose his pack mentality on you and sooner or later you'll come into conflict with him. If you embrace his mentality to a degree, and situate yourself as a friendly, dominant figure, you'll never have a more reliable friend. Soft-hearted Disney anthropomorphism has created a lot of nasty, biting dogs, imho.
It's not great for international relations, either. When dealing with other nations, you have to look at what they respect, and emulate it as much as your ethics will allow. If you embrace something that is disrespected and unfruitful in their culture, then you are gonna suffer there. We've lost standing with peace-loving nations, but I think the ones who thought us lazy, cowardly and weak are less secure in their derision. That is a balance, like everything.
If anything, the world had decided in the last 30 years that the US never finished a war, and its enemies could do what they like with only a slap on the hand in return. The average citizen in the Middle East didn't see us liberating Kuwait, they saw us start a war and go home before we finished it. Hopefully, those ideas are being questioned now. If others drop a gauntlet and force us to reiterate the point, then maybe it *will* be North Korea or Syria next, I dunno. I hope not, but if it is required for our well-being and continued prosperity, we embrace defeat by avoiding it.
There is a reason Plato reserved his Ideals, his perfect prototypes, as untouchable... somewhere other than here. Machiavelli is on the other end of the scale, accepting only failure as a guide for morality.
I see myself as Stoic, tending toward Marcus Auralius' description of such. Natural order *has* to be taken into account when one creates a standard operating procedure. Anything that seeks to ignore the way nature functions, is doomed to failure. War is a law; greed is a law, it has always been here, and it is self-defeating to write it out of your system. You shouldn't embrace it either, because you see what it does to those who do, but you cannot act as though it doesn't exist.
I like dogs. I know people who love them and get bitten a lot, and raise generally disagreeable dogs. If you treat a dog like a person, he will impose his pack mentality on you and sooner or later you'll come into conflict with him. If you embrace his mentality to a degree, and situate yourself as a friendly, dominant figure, you'll never have a more reliable friend. Soft-hearted Disney anthropomorphism has created a lot of nasty, biting dogs, imho.
It's not great for international relations, either. When dealing with other nations, you have to look at what they respect, and emulate it as much as your ethics will allow. If you embrace something that is disrespected and unfruitful in their culture, then you are gonna suffer there. We've lost standing with peace-loving nations, but I think the ones who thought us lazy, cowardly and weak are less secure in their derision. That is a balance, like everything.
If anything, the world had decided in the last 30 years that the US never finished a war, and its enemies could do what they like with only a slap on the hand in return. The average citizen in the Middle East didn't see us liberating Kuwait, they saw us start a war and go home before we finished it. Hopefully, those ideas are being questioned now. If others drop a gauntlet and force us to reiterate the point, then maybe it *will* be North Korea or Syria next, I dunno. I hope not, but if it is required for our well-being and continued prosperity, we embrace defeat by avoiding it.
DavidK
Reply #1448 Monday, April 7, 2003 11:38 PM
Reply #1448 Monday, April 7, 2003 11:38 PM
That makes sense BB... could be the reason. I just hate the message it sends to other countries when there's a worldwide agreement on a treaty to ban something like land mines or biological weapons, and the US refuses to sign it.
Backing out of the nuclear treaties, proclaiming a right to "pre-emption", developing new nuclear weapons, bragging about our armed forces having switched to tactical nukes on many of their conventional delivery systems... it's all so much like giving the whole world the finger...
Backing out of the nuclear treaties, proclaiming a right to "pre-emption", developing new nuclear weapons, bragging about our armed forces having switched to tactical nukes on many of their conventional delivery systems... it's all so much like giving the whole world the finger...
Jafo
Reply #1449 Monday, April 7, 2003 11:41 PM
Reply #1449 Monday, April 7, 2003 11:41 PM
Very much so, Dave...and it's that same finger with the autonamous capacity to nuke whom-so-ever it pleases...
DavidK
Reply #1450 Monday, April 7, 2003 11:43 PM
Reply #1450 Monday, April 7, 2003 11:43 PM
And it';s even more embarrassing when the president wears elevator shoes and refuses to talk at a European conference because they won't promise him canned applaus and a faked standing ovation... a dreary day in American diplomacy... we look like fools...
DavidK
Reply #1452 Monday, April 7, 2003 11:46 PM
Reply #1452 Monday, April 7, 2003 11:46 PM
I'm on the wrong planet...
The convenient thing about history is you can focus on the parts that suit your reality the best. When things have been a certain way for a long time it's easy to think they've always been that way and that it's natural. There have been cultures that enjoyed over a thousand years of peace and propserity. Their demise always came from within, not from a conqueror.
America was leading the world to a new prosperity and a potential of world peace and a sharing of values that was not bound by cultural identity. Values that could transcend culture and have meaning to any society. There were great statesmen whose vision and drive for bettering the human condition was infecting the entire world's population with an inspiration and hope. They were all assasinated or pushed aside as the influence of greed and aquisition regained it's hold of the roots of the political tree. With four bullets four of the pillars of contemporary political wisdom were silenced forever.
There are no statesmen in politics today, only corporate execs, sleazy influence pedlers and marketing people. We have no leaders to guide us, only ideological tyrants to rob us of our dignity, our freedoms and our money. So why fight their wars and feed their greed and lust for power? Let them do it themselves. Let them kill each other. We should be growing food to feed our children, building schools to educate them and hospitals to heal them, but instead we grow armies to protect the wealthy from the rising population of dissatisfied jobless and impoverished desperate people.
America is earning the right to nothing more than a third-world status. We are becomming the very sort of government that free countries fear and no one respects. Our fall will be a story told in history books for centuries. That our grace and wisdom which once was a beacon to the world became a pipeline, sucking the wealth and human potential from every nation on the earth. If we continue to promote a global hegemony that serves industry for the goal of individual personal wealth, we are doomed.
The convenient thing about history is you can focus on the parts that suit your reality the best. When things have been a certain way for a long time it's easy to think they've always been that way and that it's natural. There have been cultures that enjoyed over a thousand years of peace and propserity. Their demise always came from within, not from a conqueror.
America was leading the world to a new prosperity and a potential of world peace and a sharing of values that was not bound by cultural identity. Values that could transcend culture and have meaning to any society. There were great statesmen whose vision and drive for bettering the human condition was infecting the entire world's population with an inspiration and hope. They were all assasinated or pushed aside as the influence of greed and aquisition regained it's hold of the roots of the political tree. With four bullets four of the pillars of contemporary political wisdom were silenced forever.
There are no statesmen in politics today, only corporate execs, sleazy influence pedlers and marketing people. We have no leaders to guide us, only ideological tyrants to rob us of our dignity, our freedoms and our money. So why fight their wars and feed their greed and lust for power? Let them do it themselves. Let them kill each other. We should be growing food to feed our children, building schools to educate them and hospitals to heal them, but instead we grow armies to protect the wealthy from the rising population of dissatisfied jobless and impoverished desperate people.
America is earning the right to nothing more than a third-world status. We are becomming the very sort of government that free countries fear and no one respects. Our fall will be a story told in history books for centuries. That our grace and wisdom which once was a beacon to the world became a pipeline, sucking the wealth and human potential from every nation on the earth. If we continue to promote a global hegemony that serves industry for the goal of individual personal wealth, we are doomed.
Jafo
Reply #1453 Monday, April 7, 2003 11:52 PM
Reply #1453 Monday, April 7, 2003 11:52 PM
I like Dave's grasp of vocabulary....a joy to read...
BTW, unconfirmed reports are that Saddam and nephews are 'ex-parrots', thanks to 4 2000lb bombs....
BTW, unconfirmed reports are that Saddam and nephews are 'ex-parrots', thanks to 4 2000lb bombs....
bakerstreet
Reply #1454 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:09 AM
Reply #1454 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:09 AM
Please, David, please clue me in on this thousand years of peace... Where? I'd bet dimes to donuts it never existed, and if it did it is a fragile anomaly in all of human history.
" So why fight their wars and feed their greed and lust for power?"
Because their nations, too, are ruled by "corporate execs, sleazy influence peddlers and marketing people" and they will behave as such whether we do or not. If we try to behave in a way outside the natural order, we'll find ourselves outside it, and maybe worse, a victim of it. Didn't you read my post?
Listen, I love peace and ethics as much as anyone, but to allow your nation to decline and drift aimlessly in the currents made by other, less idealistic nations is poor stewardship. That isn't what we elect people to do. There is an effect to every cause, and you can't forget that inaction is a cause as well. This world is being sliced up and its resources are being reallocated constantly. Should nations with lofty ideals just forgo their claim on any of them?
The US isn't Iceland, and we can't pretend we are, unless you think we should somehow reduce our population to a completely self-sustaining level and rely on allies to protect us. I think you will find, in that case, that those nations who rely upon our consumerism won't praise our idealism, rather be enraged at our withdrawal. We would be of no use when people like Saddam Hussein invade places like Kuwait. North Korea would no doubt see *any* closed-door policy as an act of war...
For someone who embraces the idea of 'ecosystems' you are really quick to forget how they work.
" So why fight their wars and feed their greed and lust for power?"
Because their nations, too, are ruled by "corporate execs, sleazy influence peddlers and marketing people" and they will behave as such whether we do or not. If we try to behave in a way outside the natural order, we'll find ourselves outside it, and maybe worse, a victim of it. Didn't you read my post?
Listen, I love peace and ethics as much as anyone, but to allow your nation to decline and drift aimlessly in the currents made by other, less idealistic nations is poor stewardship. That isn't what we elect people to do. There is an effect to every cause, and you can't forget that inaction is a cause as well. This world is being sliced up and its resources are being reallocated constantly. Should nations with lofty ideals just forgo their claim on any of them?
The US isn't Iceland, and we can't pretend we are, unless you think we should somehow reduce our population to a completely self-sustaining level and rely on allies to protect us. I think you will find, in that case, that those nations who rely upon our consumerism won't praise our idealism, rather be enraged at our withdrawal. We would be of no use when people like Saddam Hussein invade places like Kuwait. North Korea would no doubt see *any* closed-door policy as an act of war...
For someone who embraces the idea of 'ecosystems' you are really quick to forget how they work.
craeonics
Reply #1455 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:13 AM
Reply #1455 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:13 AM
Baker's world is one where Peace and Coexistence are foreign concepts.
By the way, how is the US ever going to find out if Saddam is dead or alive if they're dropping bunker busters on his head? You'll never find a corpse that way.
By the way, how is the US ever going to find out if Saddam is dead or alive if they're dropping bunker busters on his head? You'll never find a corpse that way.
bakerstreet
Reply #1456 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:36 AM
Reply #1456 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:36 AM
no, crea, 'Peace and Coexistence' exist in my world, but they are the product of stewardship, not accidental occurrences. If it were we wouldn't need police or law.
Go to any demilitarized zone, go to any nation with no law, and see if the natural order is 'Peace and Coexistence'. Take a look at the Ivory Coast, for instance. France expected peace and coexistence just to happen on its own?
There is always someone there to beat you up and take your lunch money, that is nature. Society is a system that *actively* prevents it. Must've been a shock when 'peace and coexistence' didn't show up to stop the tribal militias in the "Democratic Republic of Congo" this week: http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=21637
Not that anyone at the UN will care unless they can find someone else to blame for it. 'Peace and Coexistence' are the products of action, not inaction.
Go to any demilitarized zone, go to any nation with no law, and see if the natural order is 'Peace and Coexistence'. Take a look at the Ivory Coast, for instance. France expected peace and coexistence just to happen on its own?
There is always someone there to beat you up and take your lunch money, that is nature. Society is a system that *actively* prevents it. Must've been a shock when 'peace and coexistence' didn't show up to stop the tribal militias in the "Democratic Republic of Congo" this week: http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=21637
Not that anyone at the UN will care unless they can find someone else to blame for it. 'Peace and Coexistence' are the products of action, not inaction.
wombat_1
Reply #1457 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:40 AM
Reply #1457 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:40 AM
Baker .... my dogs are VERY much part of the family, being hounds we're all just part of the 'pack'.
But you won't find better behaved or even tempered mutts than ours ... never shown any sign of aggressive behavior!
Then again, Beagles are 'the' superior breed
And thank you Mr Schultz (?) for letting us play with your dog .....
But you won't find better behaved or even tempered mutts than ours ... never shown any sign of aggressive behavior!
Then again, Beagles are 'the' superior breed
And thank you Mr Schultz (?) for letting us play with your dog .....
craeonics
Reply #1458 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:45 AM
Reply #1458 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:45 AM
Let's not forget "progress". Without that people will continue running around in circles, doing what they always did.
What you see in Africa is centuries of tribal warfare. The only thing that stopped them from doing so during the colonial period was armed force. Exit coloniser, exit stability, resume the old ways. Only now they've got modern weaponry, so they kill more efficiently.
What you see in Africa is centuries of tribal warfare. The only thing that stopped them from doing so during the colonial period was armed force. Exit coloniser, exit stability, resume the old ways. Only now they've got modern weaponry, so they kill more efficiently.
goodmorphing
Reply #1459 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:46 AM
Reply #1459 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:46 AM
Today I watched a news story that was talking about "postwar" Iraq. They were analyzing the mistakes made in Afghanistan and other places, and they said they had concluded that one of the biggest mistake was in not providing stewardship so that any political process could be effected. They said that its absense opened the way for thugism, rather than a real government
... it kind of seems a little that that is why government evolved in the first place.
... it kind of seems a little that that is why government evolved in the first place.
goodmorphing
Reply #1460 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:58 AM
Reply #1460 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:58 AM
One thing I wonder a lot is how much the discovery and destruction of all those ammo dumps in Iraq and Afghanistan is going to affect the general unrest in the region?
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Reply #1441 Monday, April 7, 2003 9:20 PM