US is going to war tomarrow... dang...
Sunday, March 16, 2003 by IPlural | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
opps
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moshi
Reply #842 Monday, March 24, 2003 10:36 AM
Reply #842 Monday, March 24, 2003 10:36 AM
and don´t forget we are told that Basra and Um Kasar are conquered since thursday evening every few hours. not true until now ...
IPlural
Reply #843 Monday, March 24, 2003 11:33 AM
Reply #843 Monday, March 24, 2003 11:33 AM
how does torching the oil serve military purpose? Oh, turning day into night, making it so night vision can not work correctly, put the oppisition into as much discomfort as possible, mind games, many different things. I am not saying it is right or a choice I would make, of course I am not facing the allies either so I can not say for sure what I would do, but it does have it's function's on a military position...
Same as using Agent Orange and defoliation in jungles, or 20,000 pound plus conventional bombs, or cluster bombs, mines, flame throwers, cannons, all the chemical and bio weapons we the USA have in storage, many different things that seem so mindless, have a purpose in war...
just my pov...
Same as using Agent Orange and defoliation in jungles, or 20,000 pound plus conventional bombs, or cluster bombs, mines, flame throwers, cannons, all the chemical and bio weapons we the USA have in storage, many different things that seem so mindless, have a purpose in war...
just my pov...
IPlural
Reply #844 Monday, March 24, 2003 11:36 AM
Reply #844 Monday, March 24, 2003 11:36 AM
I doubt very much that Ecology, the clean up / impact or the bank account mean much to the Iraqi military or leaders...
paxx
Reply #845 Monday, March 24, 2003 11:36 AM
Reply #845 Monday, March 24, 2003 11:36 AM
sig: wether prisonners surrender or are taken after a combat, they are still prisonners. I've seen them walk with their hands on their head in front of US/UK soldiers with guns behind them. Obviously they weren't being told they could go home.
As far as the oil wells, I say it's understandable because for them the oil is why the US is attacking in the first place. They are basically saying "You want the oil? Well, there! Now nobody can get them." Not exactly a very nice intelligent thought, but understandable when you know you're going to lose the war. Of course, it's as mature as sticking your tongue out, but I can hardly condemn it.
Hum, I don't know about the 200 casualties. I heard that Bagdad claimed there has been 7 dead, but that was after the first night of bombing only. It may be more now. Dunno.
As far as the oil wells, I say it's understandable because for them the oil is why the US is attacking in the first place. They are basically saying "You want the oil? Well, there! Now nobody can get them." Not exactly a very nice intelligent thought, but understandable when you know you're going to lose the war. Of course, it's as mature as sticking your tongue out, but I can hardly condemn it.
Hum, I don't know about the 200 casualties. I heard that Bagdad claimed there has been 7 dead, but that was after the first night of bombing only. It may be more now. Dunno.
Xerraire
Reply #846 Monday, March 24, 2003 1:13 PM
Reply #846 Monday, March 24, 2003 1:13 PM
paxx
your condemnation (you can't condemn iraq with the oil wells)
seems only aimed at americans. I don't think I am the only one that is getting that feeling here...
your condemnation (you can't condemn iraq with the oil wells)
seems only aimed at americans. I don't think I am the only one that is getting that feeling here...
wombat_1
Reply #847 Monday, March 24, 2003 1:26 PM
Reply #847 Monday, March 24, 2003 1:26 PM
Xerraire...paax is a rare person, one who stands by his convictions.
He is entitled to his opinions, which are better informed than 99% of the other posts on this board.
He is entitled to his opinions, which are better informed than 99% of the other posts on this board.
paxx
Reply #848 Monday, March 24, 2003 1:38 PM
Reply #848 Monday, March 24, 2003 1:38 PM
Xerraire, I don't condemn anyone.
All I was pointing was that US had also shown POWs on camera. That's all.
The only other comment I made was concerning cheers from soldiers after blowing up a building. Was just pointing that it made me uneasy, as if I was watching people play a video game, not killing people.
I also said that War is ugly. It kills people. On all sides. War is Ugly. I hate war, I hate people dying. Any people.
All I was pointing was that US had also shown POWs on camera. That's all.
The only other comment I made was concerning cheers from soldiers after blowing up a building. Was just pointing that it made me uneasy, as if I was watching people play a video game, not killing people.
I also said that War is ugly. It kills people. On all sides. War is Ugly. I hate war, I hate people dying. Any people.
DavidK
Reply #850 Monday, March 24, 2003 3:34 PM
Reply #850 Monday, March 24, 2003 3:34 PM
Does anybody remember the videos of Afghan prisoners? Remember Johnny Walker Lindh and the interviews, the video of him being undressed, his bullet wounds and the fact that he was vilified before the whole world. Yes it's hypocritical but the American position about the prisoner videos is expected, as is the very pro-American news coverage. To expect anything else would be naive.
America will present their side in their press and the Iraqi's will try to get their own perspective shown. Several journalists have quit in protest over being "embedded" with military units. They feel they can't see or tell the truth because they are led away from areas they want to report on.
The bus of civilians that was hit by a rocket fired from an American warplane is another perfect example of what war does. I haven't heard any details other than it was one of those big buses crammed full of Syrian nationals trying to get to a safe place on the Syrian border, and probably all of them were killed. There is also the group of journalists that was fired on by an American tank, apparently because some Iraqi soldiers where trying to surrender.
The embarrassing stories won't get much play, the victories will probably be somewhat exaggerated, the horror will be blamed on someone else or an equipment failure. It's to be expected.
I believe the American forces truly endeavor to minimize civilian casualties. But this is war and every soul that dies, civilian or military, is human. We are engaging in the most horrible enterprise that mankind has ever invented. There is no glory now, only tragic death and suffering inflicted on men, women and children by members of their own species.
It is never a victory to take a life. No matter what the reason or justification. It is only one thing when death is the answer to a situation. It's a complete failure of reasoning, diplomacy, education and conscience. It's a complete failure of competence to have to kill other human beings. And for that, we have all miserably failed as people. There is no glory, only shame.
America will present their side in their press and the Iraqi's will try to get their own perspective shown. Several journalists have quit in protest over being "embedded" with military units. They feel they can't see or tell the truth because they are led away from areas they want to report on.
The bus of civilians that was hit by a rocket fired from an American warplane is another perfect example of what war does. I haven't heard any details other than it was one of those big buses crammed full of Syrian nationals trying to get to a safe place on the Syrian border, and probably all of them were killed. There is also the group of journalists that was fired on by an American tank, apparently because some Iraqi soldiers where trying to surrender.
The embarrassing stories won't get much play, the victories will probably be somewhat exaggerated, the horror will be blamed on someone else or an equipment failure. It's to be expected.
I believe the American forces truly endeavor to minimize civilian casualties. But this is war and every soul that dies, civilian or military, is human. We are engaging in the most horrible enterprise that mankind has ever invented. There is no glory now, only tragic death and suffering inflicted on men, women and children by members of their own species.
It is never a victory to take a life. No matter what the reason or justification. It is only one thing when death is the answer to a situation. It's a complete failure of reasoning, diplomacy, education and conscience. It's a complete failure of competence to have to kill other human beings. And for that, we have all miserably failed as people. There is no glory, only shame.
Bangkokboy
Reply #851 Monday, March 24, 2003 3:58 PM
Reply #851 Monday, March 24, 2003 3:58 PM
"I believe the American forces truly endeavor to minimize civilian casualties. But this is war and every soul that dies, civilian or military, is human. We are engaging in the most horrible enterprise that mankind has ever invented. There is no glory now, only tragic death and suffering inflicted on men, women and children by members of their own species." DavidK
what you describe - tragic death and suffering inflicted on men, women and children by members of their own species - has been going on for years at Saddam's direction. Our arrival did not start it. "the most horrible enterprise that mankind has ever invented" occurs when you take the armies out of one side of the war equation, and substitute the tyrant's own helpless citizenry in their place.
what you describe - tragic death and suffering inflicted on men, women and children by members of their own species - has been going on for years at Saddam's direction. Our arrival did not start it. "the most horrible enterprise that mankind has ever invented" occurs when you take the armies out of one side of the war equation, and substitute the tyrant's own helpless citizenry in their place.
joetheblow
Reply #852 Monday, March 24, 2003 4:28 PM
Reply #852 Monday, March 24, 2003 4:28 PM
#789 by Xerraire - 3/22/2003 7:23:21 PM
My trust in the media is likely in the negative numbers, but, I just read something on UPI of interest: Link
The more I learn of Saddam and how he treats people the more I fear for those caputured. Not to mention those who have to live in a society like this.
I don't like Bush. Probably a nice guy, but as presedent I have many consernes. Then his policies; yikes!! I am sure he could have gotten more support for the War effert if he didn't shove it down people throats. He might be right about going into Iraq, but how he went about it surely was a problem.
It just started 5 days ago and it feels like five weeks. I want this to end. I want to hear the stories. I want to see the 'evil' of Saddam. Maybe we won't get so many people angry at us when all of this comes out. Let rebiulding begin and boom, on our way to North Korea.
My trust in the media is likely in the negative numbers, but, I just read something on UPI of interest: Link
The more I learn of Saddam and how he treats people the more I fear for those caputured. Not to mention those who have to live in a society like this.
I don't like Bush. Probably a nice guy, but as presedent I have many consernes. Then his policies; yikes!! I am sure he could have gotten more support for the War effert if he didn't shove it down people throats. He might be right about going into Iraq, but how he went about it surely was a problem.
It just started 5 days ago and it feels like five weeks. I want this to end. I want to hear the stories. I want to see the 'evil' of Saddam. Maybe we won't get so many people angry at us when all of this comes out. Let rebiulding begin and boom, on our way to North Korea.
bakerstreet
Reply #853 Monday, March 24, 2003 4:59 PM
Reply #853 Monday, March 24, 2003 4:59 PM
US military personnel are losing their lives *because* the US doesn't want to kill civilians. We have reached the point in the conflict that many warplanes and helicopters are coming back with their payload because they could not deliver it, which means they faced the threat they went to destroy, turned their backs to them, and left. how much easier would it be to simply carpet bomb these places?
The world has become such an evil, corrupt place that the *act* of placing an anti-aircraft weapon on a school is understandable; only destroying it is evil. All the Iraqi military need do is strap small children onto their backs and the war would be over, the evil US would have to go home. I have no doubt that Saddam Hussein is running the war from beneath some untouchable, civilian place.
Paxx: you need to allow military personnel to have whatever emotions they are gonna have on the battlefield. You have no clue how they feel, and though you can find it in your heart to understand many more complex, wrongful emotions felt by evil people, you are clueless to those who risk their lives to battle them. Those in the military already live by so many idiotic rules of engagement, and you would have "show no happiness or pleasure at a successful attack" added to the list.
DavidK: "It's a complete failure of competence to have to kill other human beings"
I am so utterly sick of this ignorant attitude. If you and Paxx want to assail every veteran who ever cheered when their mission was successful, go ahead, but it it reflects most harshly on you, and how utterly removed from real life you are. I equate it to people who enjoy a steak and gag when they realize where it comes from. I can't think of a worse fate for myself, though I suppose it makes you feel elevated.
Go back and enjoy your comfort, and forget that it is totally based upon countless "complete failures of competence".
The world has become such an evil, corrupt place that the *act* of placing an anti-aircraft weapon on a school is understandable; only destroying it is evil. All the Iraqi military need do is strap small children onto their backs and the war would be over, the evil US would have to go home. I have no doubt that Saddam Hussein is running the war from beneath some untouchable, civilian place.
Paxx: you need to allow military personnel to have whatever emotions they are gonna have on the battlefield. You have no clue how they feel, and though you can find it in your heart to understand many more complex, wrongful emotions felt by evil people, you are clueless to those who risk their lives to battle them. Those in the military already live by so many idiotic rules of engagement, and you would have "show no happiness or pleasure at a successful attack" added to the list.
DavidK: "It's a complete failure of competence to have to kill other human beings"
I am so utterly sick of this ignorant attitude. If you and Paxx want to assail every veteran who ever cheered when their mission was successful, go ahead, but it it reflects most harshly on you, and how utterly removed from real life you are. I equate it to people who enjoy a steak and gag when they realize where it comes from. I can't think of a worse fate for myself, though I suppose it makes you feel elevated.
Go back and enjoy your comfort, and forget that it is totally based upon countless "complete failures of competence".
DavidK
Reply #854 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:09 PM
Well, if you want to bang N.Korea it looks like you won't be dissapointed Joe. Remember when we went into Afganistan and GWB kept saying "this is the first war of the twenty-first century"?
Richard Perle, Rumsfeld's advisor and one of the key architects of the Bush Neocons' current multi-war agenda says Iran is next but N.Korea will be a priority. There is much money to be made and with the right investments anybody can make a 'killing' in this New American Century.
From the NY Times: "His convictions of right and wrong extend to the right and wrong investments. On Wednesday he participated in a Goldman Sachs conference call to advise clients on investment opportunities arising from the war, titled, "Implications of an Imminent War: Iraq Now. North Korea Next?"
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/23/opinion/23DOWD.html?ex=1049447795&ei=1&en=fe9486b8b8fe82cb
Reply #854 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:09 PM
Well, if you want to bang N.Korea it looks like you won't be dissapointed Joe. Remember when we went into Afganistan and GWB kept saying "this is the first war of the twenty-first century"?
Richard Perle, Rumsfeld's advisor and one of the key architects of the Bush Neocons' current multi-war agenda says Iran is next but N.Korea will be a priority. There is much money to be made and with the right investments anybody can make a 'killing' in this New American Century.
From the NY Times: "His convictions of right and wrong extend to the right and wrong investments. On Wednesday he participated in a Goldman Sachs conference call to advise clients on investment opportunities arising from the war, titled, "Implications of an Imminent War: Iraq Now. North Korea Next?"
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/23/opinion/23DOWD.html?ex=1049447795&ei=1&en=fe9486b8b8fe82cb
joetheblow
Reply #855 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:21 PM
Reply #855 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:21 PM
US news showed Iraq POW's on camera NOT the US government showing POW's and asking for rank and file.
I don't like war either paxx. I wish I could stand by my conviction on this one, but I can't. I've been trying to answer my own questions about this whole thing and it keeps leading to one decision.
War.
I don't like war either paxx. I wish I could stand by my conviction on this one, but I can't. I've been trying to answer my own questions about this whole thing and it keeps leading to one decision.
War.
bakerstreet
Reply #856 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:21 PM
Reply #856 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:21 PM
lmao. David...again... Bush has less than 2 years left, then *if* he is re-elected he has 4 more, tops. In that time we are going to somehow conquer both Iran and North Korea, and still have time left for bullying the rest of the world and doing all the evil we can to US citizens here. You people will shamelessly go to all ends to villify someone.
In the last few days I have seen some really, really odd things come out of you. Reverand Moon? Who knows what will be next. Are you getting enough zinc? I have seen the same sort of opinions coming *out* of N. Korea... I have really wondered once or twice whether someone was posting on your account without you knowing.
In the last few days I have seen some really, really odd things come out of you. Reverand Moon? Who knows what will be next. Are you getting enough zinc? I have seen the same sort of opinions coming *out* of N. Korea... I have really wondered once or twice whether someone was posting on your account without you knowing.
DavidK
Reply #857 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:29 PM
Reply #857 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:29 PM
Hiya Baker, don't be ashamed, lot's of people get a boner over war. It's not uncommon at all. I was born a pacifist and spent my whole life being one. I'm just an artist, I don't have the answers to prevent war. I don't think anyone does because those that can profit from war will do so no matter what argument comes along. I think it can be vieweed in no other way than as a failure. It's the worst possible answer to any problem.
DavidK
Reply #858 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:39 PM
Reply #858 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:39 PM
2004 will be interesting. I said back in 2000 (on the skinz MB) that if Bush gets elected there won't be any elections in 2004. I still think I may have been right except that Bush didn't exactly get elected, more like appointed. I think people are being blind to the build-up of a big-brother type infrastructure and the selling of fear. There's plenty of time left for a coup to become visible and elections to be cancelled if that's necessary. Remember, it's not my generation that this is being built for, we're going away and being replaced with a New American Century...
"Be careful what you say" - Ari Fleischer
"Be careful what you say" - Ari Fleischer
sig101
Reply #859 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:47 PM
Reply #859 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:47 PM
Paxx, it just seems to me that you are suggesting that there is equivalence in the treatment by Iraq of coalition EPOW's and Iraqis who have surrendered to coalition forces. POW's marching down a road filmed by the press as an incidental part of their coverage is not the equivalent of being interrogated by gov't officials on state run TV.
Bangkokboy
Reply #860 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:59 PM
Reply #860 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:59 PM
rework Orwell's "1984" and call it "2004" if you wish. i refuse to live scared.
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Reply #841 Monday, March 24, 2003 10:18 AM
About the prisoners, as mentioned previously the ones you likely saw soldiers who surrendered without engaging in combat. They are not treated the same as those soldiers who engage in combat and are then taken prisoner as enemy prisoners of war (EPOW's). Apparently, those who lay down their arms without fighting are detained, will be checked out and then let go. Those who have engaged in combat are treated as formal EPOW's and the press is not supposed to film them. At least that is according to the reporters who are there.
How is it understandable to torch the oil wells? What purpose does it serve? Militarily or otherwise? The troops don't rely on that oil for supply. It has an ecological impact and if they destroy the wells en masse, it effects Iraq more immediately than anyone as that is its major product and the Iraqis have to live there. Was it similarly understandable for them to torch the Kuwaiti oil fields as they retreated from Kuwait?