US is going to war tomarrow... dang...
Sunday, March 16, 2003 by IPlural | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
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paxx
Reply #822 Sunday, March 23, 2003 10:26 PM
Reply #822 Sunday, March 23, 2003 10:26 PM
Images are people dead in combat are always awful. There's no denying that. I don't know where you saw that they've been executed, I haven't heard that anywhere. Apparently they were attacked by Iraki troops, they engaged in combat, some were killed, some were taken prisoners. It's war. People die. That's why I hate war. Did I say it before?
As for comparing this one with 1991, me too, I've seen images of US POWS of 1991, that's why I was positively surprised to see those ones. They seemed to have been treated as one would expect POWs to be treated. I think this time Irak will treat them different. After all, they may want to prove the World that they're not such bad guys after all. That's also why I think that even if they do have chemical weapons, they won't use them, and leave them well hidden. I think they know they'll lose the war, and their only small hope is to show the US was wrong to attack them in the first place. Anyway, that's what I'd do if I was them. But obviously a egocentrist dictator may not think the same way as I do. :/
As for comparing this one with 1991, me too, I've seen images of US POWS of 1991, that's why I was positively surprised to see those ones. They seemed to have been treated as one would expect POWs to be treated. I think this time Irak will treat them different. After all, they may want to prove the World that they're not such bad guys after all. That's also why I think that even if they do have chemical weapons, they won't use them, and leave them well hidden. I think they know they'll lose the war, and their only small hope is to show the US was wrong to attack them in the first place. Anyway, that's what I'd do if I was them. But obviously a egocentrist dictator may not think the same way as I do. :/
IPlural
Reply #823 Sunday, March 23, 2003 11:41 PM
Reply #823 Sunday, March 23, 2003 11:41 PM
oh he'll use them if he has them and they will not show up until everyone is nice and close either...
He knows he is a dead man walking, if still alive and so do all his close advisors.
So what do they have to loose, might as well take as many as they can with them in one final
kick in the face of the world and Bush in general...
could be and probably am wrong, but, thats the feelings I get about it...
He knows he is a dead man walking, if still alive and so do all his close advisors.
So what do they have to loose, might as well take as many as they can with them in one final
kick in the face of the world and Bush in general...
could be and probably am wrong, but, thats the feelings I get about it...
bakerstreet
Reply #824 Monday, March 24, 2003 1:02 AM
Reply #824 Monday, March 24, 2003 1:02 AM
paxx : While I think you are a hopeless goofball at times, your posts do me a lot of good sometimes. I thank God that we live in a world that has corners safe and innocent enough to cultivate opinions like yours. That is the goal of conflicts like this, really; a world that can't comprehend people like Hussein.
"I think this time Irak will treat them different. After all, they may want to prove the World that they're not such bad guys after all. That's also why I think that even if they do have chemical weapons, they won't use them, and leave them well hidden. I think they know they'll lose the war, and their only small hope is to show the US was wrong to attack them in the first place. "
The only word I can come up with for that is precious. God bless ya, paxx, I hope you are right, and if you aren't, maybe a few dozen wars like this and you will be. I promise, i'm not being snide, it is just one of those shining moments when you realize that the person you are arguing with *really* believes what he is saying. I'm not gonna storm into my little girl's room and tell here there is no Santa, and I can't bring myself to argue with ya after that post.
"I think this time Irak will treat them different. After all, they may want to prove the World that they're not such bad guys after all. That's also why I think that even if they do have chemical weapons, they won't use them, and leave them well hidden. I think they know they'll lose the war, and their only small hope is to show the US was wrong to attack them in the first place. "
The only word I can come up with for that is precious. God bless ya, paxx, I hope you are right, and if you aren't, maybe a few dozen wars like this and you will be. I promise, i'm not being snide, it is just one of those shining moments when you realize that the person you are arguing with *really* believes what he is saying. I'm not gonna storm into my little girl's room and tell here there is no Santa, and I can't bring myself to argue with ya after that post.
Ande
Reply #825 Monday, March 24, 2003 3:58 AM
Reply #825 Monday, March 24, 2003 3:58 AM
Just as well there were no coalition personnel in the bullrushes, surrender was not an option they could have exercised eh.
Xerraire
Reply #826 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:31 AM
Reply #826 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:31 AM
~Paxx, you wrote:
"There's no denying that. I don't know where you saw that they've been executed, I haven't heard that anywhere. Apparently they were attacked by Iraki troops, they engaged in combat, some were killed, some were taken prisoners"
Here the reports are:
"While an Iraqi smiled at the camera over the bodies and shifted them to better display the wounds, the tape showed what is purported to be U.S. Marines in U.S. military attire lying on the floor with serious head and torso wounds -- many execution style."
"There's no denying that. I don't know where you saw that they've been executed, I haven't heard that anywhere. Apparently they were attacked by Iraki troops, they engaged in combat, some were killed, some were taken prisoners"
Here the reports are:
"While an Iraqi smiled at the camera over the bodies and shifted them to better display the wounds, the tape showed what is purported to be U.S. Marines in U.S. military attire lying on the floor with serious head and torso wounds -- many execution style."
paxx
Reply #827 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:49 AM
Reply #827 Monday, March 24, 2003 5:49 AM
bakerstreet, in the end, I tend to be an optimist and believe in good will. Go figure.
One other thought about the POWs. In 1991, if memory serves me right, the prisoners were held in the actual Palace, or at least in Bagdad anyway, where they were detained by the presidential guards. This time they are being held in a what seem to be a secondary city. Again, Icould be wrong, but maybe those gards are not as blood thirsty as Saddam's immediate army.
Xerraire: well, that's interpretation. As I said, the French CBC broadcasted live the footage, and while I did see blood in the face and on the body of the soldiers, I would say that saying they were executed is a broad interpretation. After all, we don't know al the details of the attack, there could have been grenades used or such, in which case wounds all over the body are possible. I'm not saying they haven't been executed, I just say that from the images I saw, I saw nothing that shows that.
One other thought about the POWs. In 1991, if memory serves me right, the prisoners were held in the actual Palace, or at least in Bagdad anyway, where they were detained by the presidential guards. This time they are being held in a what seem to be a secondary city. Again, Icould be wrong, but maybe those gards are not as blood thirsty as Saddam's immediate army.
Xerraire: well, that's interpretation. As I said, the French CBC broadcasted live the footage, and while I did see blood in the face and on the body of the soldiers, I would say that saying they were executed is a broad interpretation. After all, we don't know al the details of the attack, there could have been grenades used or such, in which case wounds all over the body are possible. I'm not saying they haven't been executed, I just say that from the images I saw, I saw nothing that shows that.
paxx
Reply #828 Monday, March 24, 2003 6:07 AM
Reply #828 Monday, March 24, 2003 6:07 AM
On the other hand, I must voice my disappointment concerning something disturbing I saw on TV. They were showing American/British/Aussie (I don't know which they were) fireing some sort of rocket on a building. And then then all cheered in wooo-hooos and yipeeeeas when the target blew up. I hope, I pray, that it was a practice target they knew was unhabited...
Xerraire
Reply #829 Monday, March 24, 2003 6:50 AM
Reply #829 Monday, March 24, 2003 6:50 AM
paxx
you don't have any disappointment to express regarding Iraq burning up their oil wells on purpose, or their fake surrenders, or their car bombs aimed at journalists?
or is this behavior you expected from the iraqis?
you don't have any disappointment to express regarding Iraq burning up their oil wells on purpose, or their fake surrenders, or their car bombs aimed at journalists?
or is this behavior you expected from the iraqis?
IPlural
Reply #830 Monday, March 24, 2003 7:20 AM
Reply #830 Monday, March 24, 2003 7:20 AM
well you've got a sniper or a number of people firing upon you from a building and someone hits it with a Javelin rocket and the shooting stops. What they supposed to do, boo? I mean seriously?
I can understand your abhorrence of war and such, hell I'm the same, but I am not going to forget that they are the ones doing the shooting and being shot at long enough to judge them for celebrating being the one left living in a do or die situation...
I can understand your abhorrence of war and such, hell I'm the same, but I am not going to forget that they are the ones doing the shooting and being shot at long enough to judge them for celebrating being the one left living in a do or die situation...
sig101
Reply #831 Monday, March 24, 2003 7:34 AM
Reply #831 Monday, March 24, 2003 7:34 AM
Paxx, in 1991 the prisoners were turned over to the Iraqi secret police, not known for their gentle manners, for interrogation.
That target you mention was not a practice nor a civilian target. That building held Iraqi soldiers firing on the Marines trying to kill them. What you saw was one small part of an approximately 4 hour firefight. In the end some Iraqis surrendered and prisoners were taken. The prisoners were not shown on TV. Neither were there scenes of Marines jubliantly showing off the bodies of dead Iraqis, acts when done by Iraqis against Americans soldiers don't appear to disturb you quite as much.
Scenes perhaps you haven't seen...in another part of Iraq an air attack on an Iraqi position firing at coalition forces called off because the Iraqi soldiers had surrounded themselves with the locals to serve as human shields. The efforts to minimize civilian casualties increase the risk for the coalition soldiers. Infantry will have to go in to try to selectively target the soldiers while trying to avoid civilian casualties. Much simpler, quicker and safer for them to say, "it's war and people die" and take out the threat the easy way by air. But they didn't.
That target you mention was not a practice nor a civilian target. That building held Iraqi soldiers firing on the Marines trying to kill them. What you saw was one small part of an approximately 4 hour firefight. In the end some Iraqis surrendered and prisoners were taken. The prisoners were not shown on TV. Neither were there scenes of Marines jubliantly showing off the bodies of dead Iraqis, acts when done by Iraqis against Americans soldiers don't appear to disturb you quite as much.
Scenes perhaps you haven't seen...in another part of Iraq an air attack on an Iraqi position firing at coalition forces called off because the Iraqi soldiers had surrounded themselves with the locals to serve as human shields. The efforts to minimize civilian casualties increase the risk for the coalition soldiers. Infantry will have to go in to try to selectively target the soldiers while trying to avoid civilian casualties. Much simpler, quicker and safer for them to say, "it's war and people die" and take out the threat the easy way by air. But they didn't.
The Rated PG
Reply #832 Monday, March 24, 2003 8:47 AM
Reply #832 Monday, March 24, 2003 8:47 AM
Has anyone seen a link on-line to the video itself?
paxx
Reply #833 Monday, March 24, 2003 9:12 AM
Reply #833 Monday, March 24, 2003 9:12 AM
If they were being sot at by snipers from that building, I understand the necessity of shooting it down. I just found the cheers a bit much. But I understand this is war, as I understand the survival instinct takes over in such times. I understand it, but it still is disturbing.
Hey, people. I'm not saying the Iraki are good guys there. I guess that's war is: you fight for your life.
As for the oil wells, wouldn't you do the same, placed in the same situation? I think it's understandable behavior.
Oh, and I have indeed seen Iraki prisoners on TV, hands on their head and all.
Anyway. War is ugly.
On a side note, here is an example of how the coverage of the war may be different from one contry to the other. Click on this link to the french canadian channel: http://www.radio-canada.ca/nouvelles/special/nouvelles/irak/irak/index.shtml. Nevermind the text, I know most don't understand French, but just look at the header of the page, top right. That's the image the channel chose to represent that war.
Hey, people. I'm not saying the Iraki are good guys there. I guess that's war is: you fight for your life.
As for the oil wells, wouldn't you do the same, placed in the same situation? I think it's understandable behavior.
Oh, and I have indeed seen Iraki prisoners on TV, hands on their head and all.
Anyway. War is ugly.
On a side note, here is an example of how the coverage of the war may be different from one contry to the other. Click on this link to the french canadian channel: http://www.radio-canada.ca/nouvelles/special/nouvelles/irak/irak/index.shtml. Nevermind the text, I know most don't understand French, but just look at the header of the page, top right. That's the image the channel chose to represent that war.
paxx
Reply #834 Monday, March 24, 2003 9:15 AM
Reply #834 Monday, March 24, 2003 9:15 AM
Hum, the link above doesn't work because it included my end of sentence period in the URL.
Try this instead http://www.radio-canada.ca/nouvelles/special/nouvelles/irak/irak/index.shtml , or just remove the period at the end.
Try this instead http://www.radio-canada.ca/nouvelles/special/nouvelles/irak/irak/index.shtml , or just remove the period at the end.
Xerraire
Reply #835 Monday, March 24, 2003 9:18 AM
Reply #835 Monday, March 24, 2003 9:18 AM
For my part, paxx
I jump around to all newspaper sites. I am very international, having lived abroad, married with a man from Spain, and have friends everywhere. I didn't have that link, thanks.
I jump around to all newspaper sites. I am very international, having lived abroad, married with a man from Spain, and have friends everywhere. I didn't have that link, thanks.
Xerraire
Reply #836 Monday, March 24, 2003 9:19 AM
Reply #836 Monday, March 24, 2003 9:19 AM
i found the link you meant anyway 
nothing an internet savvy lady couldn't find
nothing an internet savvy lady couldn't find
IPlural
Reply #837 Monday, March 24, 2003 9:20 AM
Reply #837 Monday, March 24, 2003 9:20 AM
very true paxx, I noticed a bit ago that a ferry9?) got hit by a missle, they are claiming it was US, I hope not....
KarmaGirl
Reply #838 Monday, March 24, 2003 9:25 AM
Reply #838 Monday, March 24, 2003 9:25 AM
It is still believed that "showing images of the soldiers violated the Geneva Conventions, which prohibits subjecting prisoners of war to humiliating treatment."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/23/sprj.irq.aldouri/index.html
I haven't seen any of these images, and I'm fine with that. I think it's disrespectful when they show images of any person that has been killed (especially if their family has not been notified). I wish we could go back to the days when news wasn't so instant.
sig101, what's new about the Iraqi military using their people for human shields? it's just another example of how mistreated the people are in that country. They know that the US doesn't want to harm civilians, so they use them as protection.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/23/sprj.irq.aldouri/index.html
I haven't seen any of these images, and I'm fine with that. I think it's disrespectful when they show images of any person that has been killed (especially if their family has not been notified). I wish we could go back to the days when news wasn't so instant.
sig101, what's new about the Iraqi military using their people for human shields? it's just another example of how mistreated the people are in that country. They know that the US doesn't want to harm civilians, so they use them as protection.
Xerraire
Reply #839 Monday, March 24, 2003 9:29 AM
Reply #839 Monday, March 24, 2003 9:29 AM
In the mean time,
US TROOPS CAPTURE CHEMICAL PLANT >> http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/PrinterFull&cid=1048389497622
US TROOPS CAPTURE CHEMICAL PLANT >> http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/PrinterFull&cid=1048389497622
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Reply #821 Sunday, March 23, 2003 9:31 PM