US is going to war tomarrow... dang...
Sunday, March 16, 2003 by IPlural | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
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paxx
Reply #762 Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:08 AM
Reply #762 Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:08 AM
Kona, there was a poll a few years ago asking "Does the sun pass between the moon and the Earth in the winter?".
40% answered yes.
Because a lot of people believe something, it does not make it true.
Just lsiten to yourself. If you are not allowed to disagree with the governemnt, that makes the opposition party illegal. With no opposition party, you have a dictoatorship. That's what you want?
40% answered yes.
Because a lot of people believe something, it does not make it true.
Just lsiten to yourself. If you are not allowed to disagree with the governemnt, that makes the opposition party illegal. With no opposition party, you have a dictoatorship. That's what you want?
kona0197
Reply #763 Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:15 AM
Reply #763 Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:15 AM
NO thats not what I want. I always tought supporting the troops and the President no matter what was patriotic thats all. I guess I was wrong. America is no dictatorship but it sure seems (to some, not myself) that we are headed in that direction. Of course your statement (Because a lot of people believe something, it does not make it true.) is quite correct. take evoulotion and creation for example. Plenty of people believe in both, but that does not prove either are correct. Sorry i even brought up the stupid poll thing. I just thought people here at WC would get a kick out of it. Instead I get my head chewed off.
IPlural
Reply #764 Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:29 AM
this cracks me up....
If you do not buy into the administration and keep your mouth shut your unAmerican...
WOW
I wonder how many germans ebnt to such a position when the brownshirts took power?
If you question or protest your not a true German, and you will be put down and denounced daily until you conform...
Or, Jim Jones says we must move south away from the Federal Government because they mean to destroy us and if you
refuse to come you are evil and aginst God, your family will be damned to burn in hell, shut up already and quit
your sniveling and drink that damn CoolAide already, seesh, some people...
Saddam says you will do as your told or we rape your daughters again and shoot your other dog..
We are the Borg, do not fear assimulation is painless and you will not remember afterwards so your thoughts and fears
are pointless...
Get in line at the back, what's in the boxes? I think toilet paper and over there it looks likes, YES bread!
Poncho Vila comes and steals my chickens, the goverment comes after Poncho and steals my chickens not the American army comes after Poncho and they too steal my chickens, all I want is for people to stop stealing my chickens...
Sorry kona, it is your right under the freedoms of being an American, rights that I served to protect and every single male in my family served to protect and many many other before, at the same time, do now and will in the future protect, your right to call me unamerican because I dissent, weird thing is, they and I protected my and others rights to do the same. That is until such time as they outlaw it, who knows maybe Ashcroft will get his Patriot Act II pushed through...
Then if anyone speaks side ways and he takes notice he can always label them something that will allow him to put them in prision or at worse remove thier citizenship, now thats American !!
We have a number of war time vet's in here and even though they might not care for those protesting I bet you would be hard pressed to find one of them that would make such a demand of others to see those who protest and dissent as being unAmerican.
I am not speaking of the cheap little butt munches who think that going after those who serv with verbal assults, spitting etc, those (people, term used loosly) need to either be in prision, or need a spontanious attitude adjustment on the spot.
I don't care who you are if someone spit on me for any reason I am going to break something, not beat them up, but put them in the hospital broken or end up broken or dead attempting it and they could put me in jail, at least it would be for a reason...
Reply #764 Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:29 AM
this cracks me up....If you do not buy into the administration and keep your mouth shut your unAmerican...
WOW
I wonder how many germans ebnt to such a position when the brownshirts took power?
If you question or protest your not a true German, and you will be put down and denounced daily until you conform...
Or, Jim Jones says we must move south away from the Federal Government because they mean to destroy us and if you
refuse to come you are evil and aginst God, your family will be damned to burn in hell, shut up already and quit
your sniveling and drink that damn CoolAide already, seesh, some people...
Saddam says you will do as your told or we rape your daughters again and shoot your other dog..
We are the Borg, do not fear assimulation is painless and you will not remember afterwards so your thoughts and fears
are pointless...
Get in line at the back, what's in the boxes? I think toilet paper and over there it looks likes, YES bread!
Poncho Vila comes and steals my chickens, the goverment comes after Poncho and steals my chickens not the American army comes after Poncho and they too steal my chickens, all I want is for people to stop stealing my chickens...
Sorry kona, it is your right under the freedoms of being an American, rights that I served to protect and every single male in my family served to protect and many many other before, at the same time, do now and will in the future protect, your right to call me unamerican because I dissent, weird thing is, they and I protected my and others rights to do the same. That is until such time as they outlaw it, who knows maybe Ashcroft will get his Patriot Act II pushed through...
Then if anyone speaks side ways and he takes notice he can always label them something that will allow him to put them in prision or at worse remove thier citizenship, now thats American !!
We have a number of war time vet's in here and even though they might not care for those protesting I bet you would be hard pressed to find one of them that would make such a demand of others to see those who protest and dissent as being unAmerican.
I am not speaking of the cheap little butt munches who think that going after those who serv with verbal assults, spitting etc, those (people, term used loosly) need to either be in prision, or need a spontanious attitude adjustment on the spot.
I don't care who you are if someone spit on me for any reason I am going to break something, not beat them up, but put them in the hospital broken or end up broken or dead attempting it and they could put me in jail, at least it would be for a reason...
kona0197
Reply #765 Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:38 AM
Reply #765 Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:38 AM
Hey IPUaral i did not mean what you think. I to come from a long line of military vets. I was just talking about the cheap little butt munches. If I offeneded you I am TRULY sorry. BTW what post did I say If you do not buy into the administration and keep your mouth shut your unAmerican...
I think that I was just refering to all those who have never served and don't relize what we trying to accomplish in Iraq. No big deal.
I think that I was just refering to all those who have never served and don't relize what we trying to accomplish in Iraq. No big deal.
kona0197
Reply #767 Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:46 AM
Reply #767 Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:46 AM
And I just looked over my previous posts. I have never said If you do not buy into the administration and keep your mouth shut your unAmerican...
Nobodys un-american as a person. Just thre actions can sometimes be, shall we say, not patroitic.
Nobodys un-american as a person. Just thre actions can sometimes be, shall we say, not patroitic.
moshi
Reply #769 Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:55 AM
Reply #769 Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:55 AM
but always keep in mind "badmouthing the government or the President can have severe consequenses. Be careful about what you say and type." 
kona0197
Reply #770 Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:59 AM
Reply #770 Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:59 AM
Sometimes it can. But you have not understood what I was trying to say. Please just leave me alone and forget I exsist. I wasn't trying to anger or upset anyone. I was just trying to convey my opinions and feelings about the war and Iraq.
moshi
Reply #773 Saturday, March 22, 2003 9:05 AM
Reply #773 Saturday, March 22, 2003 9:05 AM
i understood very well what you were trying to say. maybe that´s the problem. 
of course support your troups. noone would want their fellow countrymen to die.
support the government? completely different thing. they even want to take your guns away!!!!
of course support your troups. noone would want their fellow countrymen to die.
support the government? completely different thing. they even want to take your guns away!!!!
Jafo
Reply #774 Saturday, March 22, 2003 9:07 AM
Reply #774 Saturday, March 22, 2003 9:07 AM
Of course, our PM looks like a sniveling dweeb, whereas the Pres is merely a twit...
Ah....for a leader with charisma...[sigh]...
Ah....for a leader with charisma...[sigh]...
kona0197
Reply #775 Saturday, March 22, 2003 9:11 AM
Reply #775 Saturday, March 22, 2003 9:11 AM
Maybe I said the wrong things. I was angry at the protesting. Sorry. I do support the troops. I support America. And I respect the protesters right to protest and have their own opinions. Clearly I have some people here mad at me. Let me pull my finger out of my butt so I can slap my own face.
Remember, I don't exsist in this thread.
Remember, I don't exsist in this thread.
KarmaGirl
Reply #776 Saturday, March 22, 2003 10:27 AM
Reply #776 Saturday, March 22, 2003 10:27 AM
DavidK: "There are many people including Senators, Judges, Foriegn Service Officers, FBI agents etc etc that are protesting both this war and the Bush administration's policies"
I don't know about the rest, but the Senate voted 99-0 in *favor* of the military action. So, if there are Senators now protesting, then they are hypocrites.
AS for protesting, I would think that is the *most* American thing that I person could do. I you really believe something, you should voice your opinion. It's not like the American people got to vote on this. If I felt strongly enough against the war, I would protest, too (I don't, but that is a different discussion). American is built on free speech. Peaceful protests are free speech. When they become violent, that is then illegal, not un-American.
I don't know about the rest, but the Senate voted 99-0 in *favor* of the military action. So, if there are Senators now protesting, then they are hypocrites.
AS for protesting, I would think that is the *most* American thing that I person could do. I you really believe something, you should voice your opinion. It's not like the American people got to vote on this. If I felt strongly enough against the war, I would protest, too (I don't, but that is a different discussion). American is built on free speech. Peaceful protests are free speech. When they become violent, that is then illegal, not un-American.
IPlural
Reply #777 Saturday, March 22, 2003 10:29 AM
Reply #777 Saturday, March 22, 2003 10:29 AM
kona, no offense, taken and none meant either.
Over reaction on my part, to much on the news, TV in general and the papers, and also on line about how unamerican it is not to fall into chorus line, and in not doing so you are saying you do not support the people fighting, killing and dying. All because you do not share the same point of view or, you are so unamerican you would actually presume to have a right to express yours which does not fit with the over powering accepted norm...
my bad...
Over reaction on my part, to much on the news, TV in general and the papers, and also on line about how unamerican it is not to fall into chorus line, and in not doing so you are saying you do not support the people fighting, killing and dying. All because you do not share the same point of view or, you are so unamerican you would actually presume to have a right to express yours which does not fit with the over powering accepted norm...
my bad...
yvonne2222
Reply #778 Saturday, March 22, 2003 11:54 AM
Let me make something clear because at some point I was missunderstood yesterday ... I'm not in favor of Saddam -I too think
of him as a butcher from things I' ve heard- BUT I don't think war is the answer...
As an answer to the people that said Iraqis couldn't have overthrown Saddam...I come from a country -Greece- that for 7 years
was under junta- military dictatorship -(1967-1974). I wasn't even born then, but I know very well what it was like from my parents -for example: You couldn't walk in the streets with more than just another person for company, because a company of three and more people was considered suspicious -you could be conspiring a revolution- ... If you 'd like to check, we managed to overthrow that junta
Not only artists -ONE of the reasons american artists are arousing demonstrations, is because in past wars -and probably will be in this war too- there has been censorship to songs with anti-war messages- but students in Universities fought for a free Greece then! The leaders of the Greek junta were judged by NO other then the Greek people and recently we heard that the last of them died -being inprisoned for crimes against his country.
To da_zman20 that said that the reason many Iraqi children since 1991 are born with birth defects and die from cancer and leukemia are Saddam's mass distruction weapons and Saddam's weapons alone: As sig101 said I'm reffering to the use of depleted uranium in artillery shells used by the US in the Gulf War...and personally, to think that the american army will go down there with no biological weapons of their own is ...- to my point of view-...naive!
To Karmagirl that said I should debate my point of view with facts and not emotional images... these images are the true facts and results of war...
Oh... and where did I see and describe such images that I described yesterday??? If you haven't seen the videos that the organisation "Doctors without frontiers" have made from a tour in -after 1991- Iraqi hospitals, what can I assume...
CENSORSHIP????
Also many networks here are showing this war's victims from inside iraqi hospitals-including that little girl who was injured in her spine-
As I said at the beginning of this post, I'm not in favor of Saddam, but I'm not in favor of war too...
DON'T TRY TO SAVE A NATION FROM A BUTCHER BY BUTCHERING THEM YOURSELF!!!!
I hope you agree with me in some things...
Excuse me if I look a bit aggressive towards defenders of this current situation, but I think everyone knows the sideeffects in both sides (reminding the Gulf syndrome for many american soldiers -of those who made it back alive- )
Reply #778 Saturday, March 22, 2003 11:54 AM
Let me make something clear because at some point I was missunderstood yesterday ... I'm not in favor of Saddam -I too think
of him as a butcher from things I' ve heard- BUT I don't think war is the answer...
As an answer to the people that said Iraqis couldn't have overthrown Saddam...I come from a country -Greece- that for 7 years
was under junta- military dictatorship -(1967-1974). I wasn't even born then, but I know very well what it was like from my parents -for example: You couldn't walk in the streets with more than just another person for company, because a company of three and more people was considered suspicious -you could be conspiring a revolution- ... If you 'd like to check, we managed to overthrow that junta
Not only artists -ONE of the reasons american artists are arousing demonstrations, is because in past wars -and probably will be in this war too- there has been censorship to songs with anti-war messages- but students in Universities fought for a free Greece then! The leaders of the Greek junta were judged by NO other then the Greek people and recently we heard that the last of them died -being inprisoned for crimes against his country.
To da_zman20 that said that the reason many Iraqi children since 1991 are born with birth defects and die from cancer and leukemia are Saddam's mass distruction weapons and Saddam's weapons alone: As sig101 said I'm reffering to the use of depleted uranium in artillery shells used by the US in the Gulf War...and personally, to think that the american army will go down there with no biological weapons of their own is ...- to my point of view-...naive!
To Karmagirl that said I should debate my point of view with facts and not emotional images... these images are the true facts and results of war...
Oh... and where did I see and describe such images that I described yesterday??? If you haven't seen the videos that the organisation "Doctors without frontiers" have made from a tour in -after 1991- Iraqi hospitals, what can I assume...
CENSORSHIP????
Also many networks here are showing this war's victims from inside iraqi hospitals-including that little girl who was injured in her spine-
As I said at the beginning of this post, I'm not in favor of Saddam, but I'm not in favor of war too...
DON'T TRY TO SAVE A NATION FROM A BUTCHER BY BUTCHERING THEM YOURSELF!!!!
I hope you agree with me in some things...
Excuse me if I look a bit aggressive towards defenders of this current situation, but I think everyone knows the sideeffects in both sides (reminding the Gulf syndrome for many american soldiers -of those who made it back alive- )
DavidK
Reply #779 Saturday, March 22, 2003 12:45 PM
Reply #779 Saturday, March 22, 2003 12:45 PM
kona - don't be upset or feel personally attacked. I understand what you're trying to say and I think most people do. Your opinion is as welcome here as any other. You've expressed your feelings with phrases that are easy to rebutt because in America the right to assemble and voice your opposition to the government is a cherished and essential measure of our freedom.
When that right is challenged is when everyone will know America is no longer free. I support our troops too even if I don't support the agenda that has placed them in battle. yvonne points out depleted uranium and Gulf War syndrome, both of which are atrocious abuses of public trust. Our troops who are sick and dying from the last war in the Middle East were abandoned by their own government. The people who bring this to the public's attention are trying to help our troops and restore trust and accountability in our government and are finally making some progress 12 years later.
Scientists have warned of the terrible effects of depleted uranium on a population. There is a coalition of doctors and scientists that is working to stop the indiscriminent use of these materials, by dissenting, by protesting because of its effects. When they finally succeed and this material is no longer used, potentially millions of innocent civilian lives will be saved.
yvonne, I wish more people could have your perspective and your passion. Thanks for your story about Greece, it should be never be forgotten that the "cradle of civilization" and the birthplace of democracy was brought to its senses by the activism of its people. Artists, writers, students - those people will usually be the first to see through a political agenda and bring it to the attention of the less involved majority who don't bother thinking about such things.
When that right is challenged is when everyone will know America is no longer free. I support our troops too even if I don't support the agenda that has placed them in battle. yvonne points out depleted uranium and Gulf War syndrome, both of which are atrocious abuses of public trust. Our troops who are sick and dying from the last war in the Middle East were abandoned by their own government. The people who bring this to the public's attention are trying to help our troops and restore trust and accountability in our government and are finally making some progress 12 years later.
Scientists have warned of the terrible effects of depleted uranium on a population. There is a coalition of doctors and scientists that is working to stop the indiscriminent use of these materials, by dissenting, by protesting because of its effects. When they finally succeed and this material is no longer used, potentially millions of innocent civilian lives will be saved.
yvonne, I wish more people could have your perspective and your passion. Thanks for your story about Greece, it should be never be forgotten that the "cradle of civilization" and the birthplace of democracy was brought to its senses by the activism of its people. Artists, writers, students - those people will usually be the first to see through a political agenda and bring it to the attention of the less involved majority who don't bother thinking about such things.
DavidK
Reply #780 Saturday, March 22, 2003 12:59 PM
Reply #780 Saturday, March 22, 2003 12:59 PM
KarmaGirl - where did you get 99-0? I thought there were 5 Senators who refused to go along at all and about 20 who voted in favor with statements of dissent attached. No matter, it's done. But don't forget that the original proposal put before Congress was a duplicate of Hitler's war powers act that would have given Mr Bush the right to declare war against any country, for any reason at any time without Congressional approval or debate. That was a terrifying moment in American politics that seemed to go unnoticed by most of the public. The Bill was amended repeatedly until it was "only" for Iraq much to the dismay of the White House. There were repeated efforts by the White House to subvert the checks and balances of the American system and give the president dictatorial powers. The Senate thankfully did not allow this to happen though their performance was pathetic in allowing only 48 hours for debate on the final Bill and their performance was also pathetic in passing the Patriot Act without even reading it or debating any of its contents.
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Reply #761 Saturday, March 22, 2003 7:44 AM