Actually Auguste I have many ideas about what would make a better world. I think if a lot of things had gone differently in the past 40 years this would be a much better world. Maybe if more people really cared to speak out, demand accountability, demand disclosure we could work towards improving things.

There's an old saying that applies to far too many Americans, "the hardest man in the world to wake-up is the one who's pretending to be asleep."

"What should be done about Iraq" for the benefit of Bakerstreet

First, we need to assume that there is an emergency to "do" something. The Bush administration has told us that Saddam poses an immediate threat to America's mainland, and her interests abroad. Is this true? sorry, no one seems to believe this, including the CIA. No evidence of this threat has been brought forward and the falsified documents and false intelligence leads only add to the overall lack of credibility.

I heard an Iraqi citizen interviewed that had an interesting opinion. He said, Saddam and his guys had already killed everyone they thought was a threat to their regime and stolen all the money. When a new guy takes his place then he will start the killing and stealing all over again. Then he quoted an Arab proverb "the face you know is better than the face you don't know". A simplistic idea but probably born from ages of experience.

Since the WMD tactic wasn't going over well, now we are going to liberate the Iraqi people. Oddly, it seems most Iraqi people don't want us to liberate them. Oddly, Iraq's neighbors, all of whom are the only countries in the world that actually do face some degree of threat from Saddam, don't want us to do this either.

I say, do nothing except this, take all our troops out of Saudi Arabia. We should not be there. Buy oil from the countries that produce it at the price they want for it. Cut back our military spending to about 200 billion and work on improving the accountability and efficiency (they supposedly 'lost' over a trillion dollars in the last 6 years).

And then:
Stop spreading corporate libertarianism through the WTO and IMF. Get rid of foreign money markets and sanctify national currencies again. Demand that charted corporations start acting like good citizens, taking the public interest into account and if they don't behave shut them down and prosecute the board and the execs. Nationalize (un-privatize) all water and power suppliers. Promote food production, from small private farms to larger commercial ventures. Open pharmaceutical patents to all the world for cheap production of needed drugs. Remove GWB and his whole administration from office since his presidency has no legitimacy. Do away with "classified for reasons of national security" on anything that doesn't directly affect troops. Too many crimes are hidden that way. Develop cheap alternative power sources to reduce our dependency on fossil fuels. Sign and abide by all international treaties regarding biological weapons, nuclear testing, nuclear proliferation, land mines, emissions, pollution, human rights, and be the leader in all these areas, bringing new treaties to the world constantly. Put some realistic limits on compensation and bonuses for execs, for the average CEO salary to be 500 times the wages of the company's workers is obscene. In 1980 it was only 50 times, by 1999 it had grown to 150 times and today it's 500 times. Criminalize the hostile take-over strategy of acquiring a company only to sell off its assets, fire employees, load it up with debt from a bank you own so it pays interest instead of taxes, and move as much of it as you can to a third world country to further reduce costs, externalize expenses like pollution controls and avoid taxes, while providing diminished quality at higher prices. Support and even protect cultural diversity rather than trying to "Americanize" the world. I could go on but I'm sure I've not only already lost you but you're already typing an insult at how naive I am.

Fact is, the world is a dangerous place because our leaders are dangerous criminals. We have not had "statesmen" in politics for far too long and that's what we need desperately now. A leader like Ghandi that could inspire us while adhering to an ethical and peaceful ideology.

David: ... um, yeah... about that Iraq thing. *points to the topic*

************************ Please Read *******************************

I have made my arguments as to why I feel that war is necessary. I want to know why war *isn't* necessary, i.e. how the plight of the Iraqi people and the safety of the region can be secured without military conflict.

I challenge (defy) everyone here to balance every line of criticism for the US, its past policies, and War in general with a line suggesting a viable ALTERNATIVE to war. Not a solution that will simply please the UN, but one that will ensure what *seems* to be the argument, that the lives of the civilian population are too important to risk with a war.

If you are concerned with Iraq, speak up about what can be done about Iraq. If you just want to rant about US policy and war in general, then you do a disservice to the people you claim to care for by using them as a soapbox for your dissent, only to leave them with no solution once you have had your fun and done your damage.

To all: i was out of line saying people in the US need to be jailed for their protests against the war. I'm sorry. But people here in Oregon are getting arrestted for exactly that. They won't leave. They are blocking the streets. So the Police are making hundreds of arrests. I just wanted to say, for the record, We Americans should support our President and our troops wherever than may be or may be doing. Yes, they may have protested vietnam, and we should not hace been there. Although I am young, only 27, I do not remember seeing or reading anywhere about people protesting WW2. I just think it's weird that fellow Americans would not support the troops, but those troops are dying to make sure they can keep their freedom and opinions.

Jafo, thank you for telling that guy that my opinion is relevant.

And as far as Iraq and Saddam whose gay:
If we did not stop him now, It would have gooten worse in the future. Viva USA!

infidels, i tell ya, they are all infidels...now...where's my beer...

"but those troops are dying to make sure they can keep their freedom and opinions."
I meant:
"but those troops are dying to make sure YOU AMERICANS at home can keep their freedom and opinions."

Thank you Dave, you beat me to the punch by 2 minutes.

I disagree with your assertion that Iraq's neighbors are fine with Saddam. They may not want him overthrown, but they certainly DON'T want him left alone. They prefer us to continue spending billions of dollars policing their region thanklessly. If we leave, Hussein would be right back in Kuwait, and since war is not the answer, what then?

As for military spending, 'cutting back' is difficult when the majority of spending goes to retirement, healthcare, and education for ex-military personel. Who gets cut back? Will we do the world a service by abandoning it to the likes of Saddam Hussein? Should we leave South Korea to fend off the North? This seems simplified, but all this spending adds up to the total.

Your other suggestions are good, but they are really general:

"Saddam and his guys had already killed everyone they thought was a threat to their regime and stolen all the money. "

What's with the no-fly zone, then? who are we protecting? You think he would let the Kurdish opposition sit and plot his demise?

"Sign and abide by all international treaties regarding biological weapons, nuclear testing, nuclear proliferation, land mines, emissions, pollution, human rights":

How is this possible when 99% of them are written with punitive trade manuvering in mind, not actual care for the safely of the world. How can you get parties to agree with they have written the laws to harm other nations?

"Remove GWB and his whole administration from office since his presidency has no legitimacy. "

Huh? Only the legitimacy lent it by the US constitution.

"Develop cheap alternative power sources to reduce our dependency on fossil fuels."

Kina general isn't it? Why not speak faster-than-light travel into existance while you are at it?

**

You aren't giving ways to change the world, you are simply suggesting outcomes of change. You assume in all these cases that your concept of all these issues will be shared by those in charge, and that they won't use these new ventures to cement their own power or do harm to others. You know how lawmaking works; if everyone agrees on a law, lawmakers see it as leeway to tag a controversial rider onto it. That goes double for international law.

No offense, but I, too, could sit down and make a list of things i would like to see changed. I wouldn't presume to promote them as 'ideas' unless i had enough fleshed out to make them actually possible to do.

congratulations kona0197...you are 666 here...now...where's my beer?

Hey I have a cold one for ya hope you like bud. Whats 666 mean? I come from a long line of navy and army forefathers so I remain true to the President and our tropps. If I could, I would want to fight to.

And while we are on the subject of Iraq and Mr. So-Damn insane, they all remind me of guess who?
Hitler and the Nazi's
Everyone needs to stop complaing and start helping. there is a old saying:
"Quit being part of the problem. Be part of the solution."
And:
"To be heard, Shut up."

"I say, do nothing except this, take all our troops out of Saudi Arabia."

what, you can't read?

International diplomacy has never been less effective or more self-serving than it is today. We should work for a stronger international alliance and a stronger UN rather than the regretable course we're taking.

Apparently Saddam hasn't actually done any atrocities like the very publicized ones we keep hearing about for twelve years. Seems a bit presumptuous for us to be so concerned about the Iraqi people now when the Gulf War and the sanctions seemed to be containing him pretty well.

We spanked Gadahfi and he turned into a pretty good leader for his country and stopped getting involved in terrorism. Without a war. Bush and his cabinet of corporate execs and attorneys don't have the skills for international diplomacy.

Here's my solution to help the Iraqi people (and the region, and the rest of the world). Pull our troops out of Saudi Arabia. Let the UN take care of Iraq until America has a president that is capable of dealing with international affairs. Disband the CIA (and all the other stuff in my post above, that's important). Removce the Bush group from power and actually "elect" a president in an election that has NO special interest money financing the campaigns. If America can't come up with a leader that is worthy of the position then stay the hell out of international affairs until we do and try to fix some of the problems here in the US.

oh, I thought your other reply (664) was your reply to my post (663) baker...

I'm tired...

BTW...120 (or more) people got arrested in Portland, Oregon, for protesting and blocking city streets.

yeah but they wanted to be arrested. It was their choice. I watched it on the local news and it seemed pretty peaceful. In fact, the whole day of protests was handled pretty well on both sides.

I wonder what happened in San Francisco. I heard 1,000 people got arrested there.

Maybe someday I'll tell you about demonstrations in the Vietnam/Civil Rights/Free Speech era. That was a lot more astounding than most people know. Only about half of what happened made it to the news. It was like the country was at war with its own citizens. But there was a lot of positive change that came from it... even if it did get co-opted into cultural flaccidity and ultimately, pushed aside.

I'm utterly speechless.

Somehow we are supposed to dismantle the CIA, remove ourselves from UN obligations and agreements to protect our allies, cut our military, and the world will be a safer place. Of course the intelligence gathering agencies of China and the like will continue going strong, without all that bothersome balance...

In the face of *cough* European might, Saddam Hussein will cringe at the thought of trying to invade his neighbors, even though he knows the US has quit the region. He will no doubt go ahead and turn over the remaining scud missles he didn't have last week, too.

"actually "elect" a president in an election that has NO special interest money financing the campaigns"

with or without campaign finance law? And who will pass those laws since everyone in congress got their by way of special interest money? Once the laws are passed, everyone will be honest, too, and never, ever try and subvert the law. Why? Because Dave says so.

Your answer to Iraq then seems to be able to be summed up in one word. "leave". walk off from region, trust that france and the other 'friendlies' at the UN will have our best interest in mind with the policy they make there, and will be able with their hobbled military forces to police an area they are mostly unconcerned with. Once Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have fallen, Isreal is rubble, and we have no clout to protect the price of oil, we fall back on your fuzzy 'alternative energy' idea, no doubt.

Why is it, do ya think, that China doesn't invade Taiwan, or North Korea doesn't retake south Korea? They could with ease and would profit greatly by it. Once the other world powers move into the vacuum we leave behind, we'll never get back in, either, so 'strategic' would be pretty much out of our vocabulary. Once we have abandoned the middle east, the odds are slim they would invite us back.

Turning away from the world now would be a disasterous mistake, and untold numbers of people would suffer for it. The well-being of the world isn't the point of your plan, though, it is the philosophical purity of the way our nation functions. Noble, true, but I don't think the lack of compassion and the sacrifice of our place in the world would endow us with much nobility.

You know i dig ya, dave, but i think you are a whacko sometimes.

hey david it is nice to have another oregon opinion here. The protest was very peaceful but the point I was trying to make is that they should support our troops. The troops are dying just so they can protest against them? Thats nuts.

As far as Vietnam we had no business being there. We have business being in Iraq. Someone needs to shut him up and take him out. Strike the shepard and the sheep will quickly scatter.

I said pull our troops out of Saudi Arabia (maybe you can't read ) not pull out of the Middle East. Not being in Saudi Arabia would do more to prevent terrorism than anything else we could do. To the Arab world it's the equivalent of the Branch Davidians running the Vatican. Worse actually.

We can't turn away from the world and I didn't say that, but, I did say that we should stay out of world affairs as long as we have a president with such terrible diplomacy skills and special interest driven agendas.

We just need a good president... that's the biggest problem.