US is going to war tomarrow... dang...
Sunday, March 16, 2003 by IPlural | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
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paxx
Reply #482 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:46 PM
Reply #482 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:46 PM
Obviously nobody is intersted to live in a World in peace and with no war, and are not willing to make sacrifices to obtain it.
Go ahead just blow yourselves up. Just leave me out of it.
Go ahead just blow yourselves up. Just leave me out of it.
sig101
Reply #483 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:53 PM
Reply #483 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:53 PM
Really, Alo, the Mexicans, Canadians, Argentinians, Chileans, Peruvians, etc I know refer to themselves by their nationality, ie, the names of their countries. Not by their geography.
It's simple accuracy to refer to people by their nationality, not disrepectful, although that's certainly how you choose to interpret it.
It's simple accuracy to refer to people by their nationality, not disrepectful, although that's certainly how you choose to interpret it.
joetheblow
Reply #484 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:53 PM
Reply #484 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:53 PM
As many times as I have read this thread (and I quite enjoyed it; I think debates and understanding other poeple thoughts on a subject is always interesting and enlightenint) I have yet to here the asnwers to the fundemental quetsion. I have herd "one liners", statement that are true but pushed to be associated with why the US actions is bad, and so on.
I think we all can agree that:
a)
War is bad and no one wins; you just have one loser gets beat up more
Wanting to avoid war at all costs can empower the one you wish to contain
c)
The cost of war always takes lives of those in it.
d)
When it is agreed that war will happen, it is now BOTH parties fault for the deaths of those involved
With all this said and all the 'truths" that can be written on this (from war is for oil to fighting for freedom) it still comes back to this bottom line that eventually is where the choice to go to war or not is made; in this situation at least.
World politics is not easy. There are and will be interests other than what appears. I don't agree with Bush or with his tactics. Nevertheless, I have yet to here anything that says that Saddam has disarmed.
"Give him 30 more days." That's fine with me, but what happens when those 30 days are up? We know it happened before.
"America is only interested in oil".
Just oil? Not just from Iraq I hope because it is not worth it. We would spend more than the oil they have just fighting the war. I guess Iraq could become a launch pad for 'conquering' other oil rich places. The cost for doing so? More money than most of the oil in the region. Good investment? NO.
Why is the USA friends with China? They do the same thing as Iraq... Iraq has oil to fund its weapons production, China has a struggleing economy. The chinese soldier is more loyal. I doubt they would sell weapons to those who would later use them against themselves.
People, people ,poeple!!! It is not just about this country does the same thing or hey you have them too... it is about location, location, location, economy, additudes, stability, population comfort level (food, shelter, education, jobs)
When you include all of those factors who is more dangerous? Iraq or Argentina? Iran or Canada? North Korea or China? Serbia or Seria?
Is Saddam in breach of the agreement???
Does he have loads of money???
How loyal is his army???
Population comfort level???
How many resolutions for disarmerment????
How many years under said resolutions???????
Please, no one liners... "America wants oil!!!" "Bush is Evil!!!"
alo_cmr, if there is to be peace, how do we asnwer those questions?
I think we all can agree that:
a)
War is bad and no one wins; you just have one loser gets beat up more
Wanting to avoid war at all costs can empower the one you wish to contain
c)
The cost of war always takes lives of those in it.
d)
When it is agreed that war will happen, it is now BOTH parties fault for the deaths of those involved
With all this said and all the 'truths" that can be written on this (from war is for oil to fighting for freedom) it still comes back to this bottom line that eventually is where the choice to go to war or not is made; in this situation at least.
World politics is not easy. There are and will be interests other than what appears. I don't agree with Bush or with his tactics. Nevertheless, I have yet to here anything that says that Saddam has disarmed.
"Give him 30 more days." That's fine with me, but what happens when those 30 days are up? We know it happened before.
"America is only interested in oil".
Just oil? Not just from Iraq I hope because it is not worth it. We would spend more than the oil they have just fighting the war. I guess Iraq could become a launch pad for 'conquering' other oil rich places. The cost for doing so? More money than most of the oil in the region. Good investment? NO.
Why is the USA friends with China? They do the same thing as Iraq... Iraq has oil to fund its weapons production, China has a struggleing economy. The chinese soldier is more loyal. I doubt they would sell weapons to those who would later use them against themselves.
People, people ,poeple!!! It is not just about this country does the same thing or hey you have them too... it is about location, location, location, economy, additudes, stability, population comfort level (food, shelter, education, jobs)
When you include all of those factors who is more dangerous? Iraq or Argentina? Iran or Canada? North Korea or China? Serbia or Seria?
Is Saddam in breach of the agreement???
Does he have loads of money???
How loyal is his army???
Population comfort level???
How many resolutions for disarmerment????
How many years under said resolutions???????
Please, no one liners... "America wants oil!!!" "Bush is Evil!!!"
alo_cmr, if there is to be peace, how do we asnwer those questions?
IPlural
Reply #485 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:55 PM
Reply #485 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:55 PM
I think our president had SAT's that would not get him into Willy Wonkas college of Chocolate let alone Yale...
and Yeah nukes suck
thank you for your permission to think as I like, very civil of you
you too ok?
seriously... my comment was about what you stated about the world not allowing use to stay on the planet, that is not the world choice... and for any nation to assume it is would be dangerous to say the least... not saying that is right or wrong, just a cold bold fact...
It is like when Binny and his boys pulled thier crap on 9/11, we had a bunch of people come into the CNN chat and tell us how if we did anything in return they would kill every last America. ALl I could say to them was this, during WWII the US Marines would board a ship, float to an island and dump 50,000 troops onto an island, 3,000 or 5,000 or even more would end up dead taking that island, and they would kill and burn everything living that was not friend starting at one end and moving on to the other end, know what they did afterwards?
They got back in those little boats and road out to the bigger ships and sailed along to the next island, it was called island hopping... it cost a bunch of lifes and it was horrific for everyone involved, and they complained and bitched and hated it, but they did it each and everytime... Know why? Because Japan came to America, it hit America, it put war where mom and dad, gram and gramps, little sis and brother, the dog spot and the cat mittens sleep... It went tooo far...
At one time everyone is pissed off because the citizens of the USA do not concern themselves with those outside our borders, well, we don't relaly. Our own lives are enough, bt there are certain things that will make the people of the USA sit up and take notice. Binny found that out, just not the kind of response he was thinking he would get....
If you want something positive , I would suggest talking with and not at, because at the point you speak at, you get noticed... and from that point on, it turns inane...
anyway...
just my stupid opinion such as it is....
and Yeah nukes suck
thank you for your permission to think as I like, very civil of you
you too ok?
seriously... my comment was about what you stated about the world not allowing use to stay on the planet, that is not the world choice... and for any nation to assume it is would be dangerous to say the least... not saying that is right or wrong, just a cold bold fact...
It is like when Binny and his boys pulled thier crap on 9/11, we had a bunch of people come into the CNN chat and tell us how if we did anything in return they would kill every last America. ALl I could say to them was this, during WWII the US Marines would board a ship, float to an island and dump 50,000 troops onto an island, 3,000 or 5,000 or even more would end up dead taking that island, and they would kill and burn everything living that was not friend starting at one end and moving on to the other end, know what they did afterwards?
They got back in those little boats and road out to the bigger ships and sailed along to the next island, it was called island hopping... it cost a bunch of lifes and it was horrific for everyone involved, and they complained and bitched and hated it, but they did it each and everytime... Know why? Because Japan came to America, it hit America, it put war where mom and dad, gram and gramps, little sis and brother, the dog spot and the cat mittens sleep... It went tooo far...
At one time everyone is pissed off because the citizens of the USA do not concern themselves with those outside our borders, well, we don't relaly. Our own lives are enough, bt there are certain things that will make the people of the USA sit up and take notice. Binny found that out, just not the kind of response he was thinking he would get....
If you want something positive , I would suggest talking with and not at, because at the point you speak at, you get noticed... and from that point on, it turns inane...
anyway...
just my stupid opinion such as it is....
IPlural
Reply #486 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:00 PM
Reply #486 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:00 PM
paxx, yes, I would love it, and I would actually give my life for it, but I would not be willing to give someone else life by my not acting when needed. That I could not do...
As you said before, if someone were to come for you wife or child, that is different than them coming for you, same for me, thing is, they came after anyone and everyone. So people are not protecting themselves, they are protecting thier loved ones....
It's to twisted and dynamic to hash out in a message board really, but, until such time as people respond with a resounding "get bent" when told to go to war... we will have war
onc persosn at a time paxx, one person and it starts with you, me, karmagirl, frogboy, jafo, green_armani, Boxxi, everyone inthe world, etc... each of us come to things in our own time in our own way on our own path is all...
As you said before, if someone were to come for you wife or child, that is different than them coming for you, same for me, thing is, they came after anyone and everyone. So people are not protecting themselves, they are protecting thier loved ones....
It's to twisted and dynamic to hash out in a message board really, but, until such time as people respond with a resounding "get bent" when told to go to war... we will have war
onc persosn at a time paxx, one person and it starts with you, me, karmagirl, frogboy, jafo, green_armani, Boxxi, everyone inthe world, etc... each of us come to things in our own time in our own way on our own path is all...
Buzz_Hog
Reply #487 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:02 PM
Reply #487 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:02 PM
Bravo joetheblow....
It's good to hear the voice of reason again...
It's good to hear the voice of reason again...
Bangkokboy
Reply #488 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:03 PM
Reply #488 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:03 PM
paxx - if it's any comfort, the people who've been posting here today don't control the world's armies. i'm trying to cheer you up.
people speak boldly and loudly on emotional issues when their subconscious knows that nothing is actually at stake, and they get strangely quiet, restrained, and humble if you put their finger on the Big Button.
people speak boldly and loudly on emotional issues when their subconscious knows that nothing is actually at stake, and they get strangely quiet, restrained, and humble if you put their finger on the Big Button.
sig101
Reply #489 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:08 PM
Reply #489 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:08 PM
Paxx, that's a rather interesting statement. How do we achieve world peace in the macro when people continue to be violent and vie for power in the micro? You think when people point out that it's not as simple as you might like it to be, that no one's interested? That only with a little application and sacrifices among those who are dedicated, presto it'll happen?
Look at Ghandi...yes he had his victories, at a cost to himself and others, and look what at what happened when India's independence was achieved. Why is there a Pakistan today when the people of India had Ghandi as a shining example?
Look at Ghandi...yes he had his victories, at a cost to himself and others, and look what at what happened when India's independence was achieved. Why is there a Pakistan today when the people of India had Ghandi as a shining example?
joetheblow
Reply #490 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:12 PM
Reply #490 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:12 PM
I want peace too and I am willing to work very hard for it. I don't ever want to kill another human being even if that human being is attacking me with the intent to kill. I will do my best to thrawt that human being mission...
Even a guy like Saddam, i would try my best to not throw countries and regoins to war. While Saddam is OBVIOUSLY killing people, I can not condone more voilence to end him doing so. At that point I would be the one who would be killing those who I accedentally hit on my way to Saddam.
now said all of that, there is a point where I would take matters in my own hands and 'eliminate' the threat. I would calculate a way that HIS own actions will put himself in jeapordy of 'eliminating' the situation for me. He would be the one that would make the mistake that ends his threat toward me. I would indirectly cause his own downfall by the tactics that he uses to kill.
In self defence, I would do my best not to hurt anyone, even the enemy. Nevertheless, the threat WILL be "eliminated".
hmmmmmm.... sort of a Yin and Yang. A mixture of ideals.Survival Vs. Ideals. Being a slave and alive Vs. being Free in living Life.
paxx, I do believe that one day, our accumulated human knowledge will allow us to live peacefully.
WE are not at that point yet, but there are more people who can be peace minded today then yesterday... a "Good" sign, don't you think?
Even a guy like Saddam, i would try my best to not throw countries and regoins to war. While Saddam is OBVIOUSLY killing people, I can not condone more voilence to end him doing so. At that point I would be the one who would be killing those who I accedentally hit on my way to Saddam.
now said all of that, there is a point where I would take matters in my own hands and 'eliminate' the threat. I would calculate a way that HIS own actions will put himself in jeapordy of 'eliminating' the situation for me. He would be the one that would make the mistake that ends his threat toward me. I would indirectly cause his own downfall by the tactics that he uses to kill.
In self defence, I would do my best not to hurt anyone, even the enemy. Nevertheless, the threat WILL be "eliminated".
hmmmmmm.... sort of a Yin and Yang. A mixture of ideals.Survival Vs. Ideals. Being a slave and alive Vs. being Free in living Life.
paxx, I do believe that one day, our accumulated human knowledge will allow us to live peacefully.
WE are not at that point yet, but there are more people who can be peace minded today then yesterday... a "Good" sign, don't you think?
alo_cmr
Reply #491 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:12 PM
Reply #491 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:12 PM
Thanks to you for those intelligent posts where you show your point of view and think a little about what happens. It's not my job to chage your minds but I think that USA really doesn't know the horror of war. I have to leave for a couple of days so you will be without my annoying opinion (i have some examinations).
Jafo
Reply #492 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:23 PM
Reply #492 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:23 PM
Green Armani...
Personal 'attacks' on fellow members of this site will not be tolerated.
It may be your 'opinion' that Paxx's pacifism stance is 'cowardly or wimpy' but it is also defammatory.
It is far less 'brave' to stand up amongst an army of leather-necks and spout war slogans than to be a lone civilian standing infront of a Communist tank in a city square.
Were paxx to censure you for personal attack it would be construed by many as 'petty', however I am a third-party observer [a 'Jafo', even] and was not impressed with the insult.
Yes it's a free world, but we have limits.
BTW...the 'truly' brave/heroic would publicly show contrition.
Personal 'attacks' on fellow members of this site will not be tolerated.
It may be your 'opinion' that Paxx's pacifism stance is 'cowardly or wimpy' but it is also defammatory.
It is far less 'brave' to stand up amongst an army of leather-necks and spout war slogans than to be a lone civilian standing infront of a Communist tank in a city square.
Were paxx to censure you for personal attack it would be construed by many as 'petty', however I am a third-party observer [a 'Jafo', even] and was not impressed with the insult.
Yes it's a free world, but we have limits.
BTW...the 'truly' brave/heroic would publicly show contrition.
Jafo
Reply #493 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:27 PM
Reply #493 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:27 PM
BTW....the 'forgotten' soldiers [the Aussie SAS] have been well inside Iraq for days...
Green Armani
Reply #494 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:29 PM
Reply #494 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:29 PM
Like I stated earlier I was not trying to insult him and that was not my intention, why do I have to repeat myself again. If I cannot state my opinion on this board then whats the point of it. I shouldn't have to bite my tongue on every single thing. I already told paxx a few comments ago that I was not trying to insult him....and of story and get off my back about it already.
alo_cmr
Reply #496 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:31 PM
Reply #496 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:31 PM
[the Aussie SAS]->Special Air Service
what does Aussie mean?
what does Aussie mean?
Thibaud
Reply #497 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:35 PM
Reply #497 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:35 PM
Buzz_Hog,
for me topic is closed but I just wanted to add a last comment about the "I mean hey, France basically gave Iraq the means and methods to produce nuclear weapons to Iraq."
I think you're referring to the photo taken in which you can see chirac and saddam hussein in 1970 while france were dealing to help irak in creating a nuclear central. Main purpose of it was for electricty, sure, but I must admit that hussein view could be different and use that nuclear power for different matters. You're right on that point.
But something I've read (in newspapers, website and seen on TV) is quite surprising as well :
http://www.lasg.org/washingtonpost_com%20U_S_%20Had%20Key%20Role%20in%20Iraq%20Buildup.htm
You can do a search in the Washingtonpost website (advanced search, put year 2002, then search for the topic of the article and you'll get a result with the top of that article -same content as the previous link-, then when clicking to read the full article, poof! , page has been removed and can't be read anymore ... weird.
for me topic is closed but I just wanted to add a last comment about the "I mean hey, France basically gave Iraq the means and methods to produce nuclear weapons to Iraq."
I think you're referring to the photo taken in which you can see chirac and saddam hussein in 1970 while france were dealing to help irak in creating a nuclear central. Main purpose of it was for electricty, sure, but I must admit that hussein view could be different and use that nuclear power for different matters. You're right on that point.
But something I've read (in newspapers, website and seen on TV) is quite surprising as well :
http://www.lasg.org/washingtonpost_com%20U_S_%20Had%20Key%20Role%20in%20Iraq%20Buildup.htm
You can do a search in the Washingtonpost website (advanced search, put year 2002, then search for the topic of the article and you'll get a result with the top of that article -same content as the previous link-, then when clicking to read the full article, poof! , page has been removed and can't be read anymore ... weird.
Jafo
Reply #498 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:39 PM
Reply #498 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:39 PM
Green Armani...
I love the apology for the insult....very eloquent.
'not trying' or 'not my intention' not withstanding, you did and you have.
I bite my tongue every day. I suggest you learn to likewise.
alo_cmr....'Aussie' is just short for 'Australian'. [we tend to be lazy]...
I love the apology for the insult....very eloquent.
'not trying' or 'not my intention' not withstanding, you did and you have.
I bite my tongue every day. I suggest you learn to likewise.
alo_cmr....'Aussie' is just short for 'Australian'. [we tend to be lazy]...
kthxbye
Reply #499 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:42 PM
Reply #499 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:42 PM
Thibaud - better keep a low profile, 'lest all of the legions of ravenous HvD fans learn you're around here... ^.^
Bangkokboy
Reply #500 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:43 PM
Reply #500 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:43 PM
"The way a man apologizes is the measure of the man." Joseph Lyons
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Reply #481 Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:45 PM
gee... I'm stumped stupid on that one
ok, back to lurking