US is going to war tomarrow... dang...
Sunday, March 16, 2003 by IPlural | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
opps
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UHRBid
Reply #242 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:39 PM
Reply #242 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:39 PM
yeah, that really sucks....
I'm all for France supporting the US, but ultimatly it's their choice not to, and I can't really fault them for not wanting a war in their back yard.
The thing I can't stand are the American's who over-react and make everything bad like the person you mentioned c242... All that "If you don't support America then go to Iraq" crap gets old really fast. I'm American, I have been for years, and my family for generations. I love America, but I don't always agree with everything it does....
That doesn't make me anti-American, just concerned about America.
I'm all for France supporting the US, but ultimatly it's their choice not to, and I can't really fault them for not wanting a war in their back yard.
The thing I can't stand are the American's who over-react and make everything bad like the person you mentioned c242... All that "If you don't support America then go to Iraq" crap gets old really fast. I'm American, I have been for years, and my family for generations. I love America, but I don't always agree with everything it does....
That doesn't make me anti-American, just concerned about America.
Green Armani
Reply #243 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:42 PM
Reply #243 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:42 PM
I hate seeing that. People being treated in-humane because of association. Yeah I may not like the French government but I respect her people. I guess there is a fine line that people can cross so easily. Sorta reminds me of peace rally's....sorta ironic how peacenics riot or fight at these rally's when they are there in the first place for no war, or no fighting.
I was once spat at in Berkley, CA (Bezerkley for us military folk) simply because I was a Marine. It made me think, am I gonna die so that this person has the freedom to spit on me? Makes me sad but I then think of those that I love and care about most and I guess I find comfort in that I would do it for them
Green Armani has much community love right now
I was once spat at in Berkley, CA (Bezerkley for us military folk) simply because I was a Marine. It made me think, am I gonna die so that this person has the freedom to spit on me? Makes me sad but I then think of those that I love and care about most and I guess I find comfort in that I would do it for them
Green Armani has much community love right now
werewolf
Reply #244 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:48 PM
Reply #244 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:48 PM
well there is going to be a war, so...no matter what your opinions on war are, let's be sure to give our support and prayers to all the soldiers from all the countries who are participating. Also to all the other support folks.
UHRBid
Reply #245 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:51 PM
Reply #245 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:51 PM
I'll still support.
I hate the war, and I don't think we should be going, but it's not my choice. IMO, America is in the wrong just as much as Saddam. On the bright side, this will at least end the whole standoff we've been having, and that may be worth it.
I hate the war, and I don't think we should be going, but it's not my choice. IMO, America is in the wrong just as much as Saddam. On the bright side, this will at least end the whole standoff we've been having, and that may be worth it.
Green Armani
Reply #246 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:59 PM
Reply #246 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:59 PM
Are we talking 50/50 or 20/80. Is it wrong for the US to finally put an end to a regime who practice what I listed a few posts ago. How can you say we are in the wrong? How are we wrong? Statements like that with zero reference is probably what makes people upset.
WOM
Reply #247 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:00 PM
Reply #247 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:00 PM
Well Green Armani, thats what happened when we came back from NAM. They couldn't wait for us to get into the airport. Called us baby killers and spit on us. 
UHRBid
Reply #248 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:14 PM
Reply #248 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:14 PM
ah, my bad.
I agree Saddam is not a good person, and his regime is wholly inappropriate, and he should not be in power.
I disagree that the US should be the one to do it since we have little support from contries in the area (since it is their turf (for lack of a beter word), and not in our locale). Granted, we depend on the oil from Iraq and other countries there, so we have some times, but it's the same as me going and stealing from someone across town because he stole from his neighbor.
I know, crappy example, but it's the way I see things about this. I'm a strong believer that there is always a way that doesn't involve war (being a pacifist), and from what I've seen and heard from papers, articles and radio, I get the impression we barely tried anythign but threats. I see the US being a bully to Iraq.
Saddam isn't a nice guy, and I dislike him completely, but I don't think America has the right to be judge, jury, and executioner. If we do that, then I really feel that the US would be no better than Saddam has been.
Just my opinions though as to why I dislike the war. Right or wrong, I can't support the war and be honest with myself.
I agree Saddam is not a good person, and his regime is wholly inappropriate, and he should not be in power.
I disagree that the US should be the one to do it since we have little support from contries in the area (since it is their turf (for lack of a beter word), and not in our locale). Granted, we depend on the oil from Iraq and other countries there, so we have some times, but it's the same as me going and stealing from someone across town because he stole from his neighbor.
I know, crappy example, but it's the way I see things about this. I'm a strong believer that there is always a way that doesn't involve war (being a pacifist), and from what I've seen and heard from papers, articles and radio, I get the impression we barely tried anythign but threats. I see the US being a bully to Iraq.
Saddam isn't a nice guy, and I dislike him completely, but I don't think America has the right to be judge, jury, and executioner. If we do that, then I really feel that the US would be no better than Saddam has been.
Just my opinions though as to why I dislike the war. Right or wrong, I can't support the war and be honest with myself.
joetheblow
Reply #249 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:17 PM
Reply #249 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:17 PM
hmmmm....
Is Saddam someone who you would trust to disarm? As against the war that I am no one on my side has yet to say Saddam has no weapons and prove it, that Saddam has a stable country, that Saddam treats his people fairly, thats Saddam's military wouldn't just sell or give weapons on the open black market.
Can someone give me something that clearly states that peace has a chance against Saddam?
Is Saddam someone who you would trust to disarm? As against the war that I am no one on my side has yet to say Saddam has no weapons and prove it, that Saddam has a stable country, that Saddam treats his people fairly, thats Saddam's military wouldn't just sell or give weapons on the open black market.
Can someone give me something that clearly states that peace has a chance against Saddam?
Green Armani
Reply #250 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:25 PM
Reply #250 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:25 PM
I respect your opinion because that is how you are feeling regardless of what is factual but you have to be honest to yourself about what is really going on.
I hear that line about oil and all that but does anybody know where the US gets the majority of it's oil? I can tell you it's not the middle east. Anyway.....being a pacifist is one thing but being ignorant is another.
I hear that line about oil and all that but does anybody know where the US gets the majority of it's oil? I can tell you it's not the middle east. Anyway.....being a pacifist is one thing but being ignorant is another.
IPlural
Reply #251 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:26 PM
Reply #251 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:26 PM
WOM... might sound silly, but thank you for stepping up when called and also welcome home very glad you made it...
It is one thing to question or protest the actions of the government, disent is a liberty and a part of freedom, spitting on, throwing ckicken blood on and calling soliders who did their duty and servered their country protecting those same rights of the ones doing the spitting and such...
hell with it, don't mean nothing...
though slapping the crap out of at least one of em might bring a little peace of mind
It is one thing to question or protest the actions of the government, disent is a liberty and a part of freedom, spitting on, throwing ckicken blood on and calling soliders who did their duty and servered their country protecting those same rights of the ones doing the spitting and such...
hell with it, don't mean nothing...
though slapping the crap out of at least one of em might bring a little peace of mind
KarmaGirl
Reply #252 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:28 PM
Reply #252 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:28 PM
GA: "I hear that line about oil and all that but does anybody know where the US gets the majority of it's oil?"
Ohh! Ohhh! I can answer that one!
Right from its own backyard. The US gets the majority of her oil from the US.
Ohh! Ohhh! I can answer that one!
Right from its own backyard. The US gets the majority of her oil from the US.
UHRBid
Reply #254 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:32 PM
Reply #254 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:32 PM
1) On the other side, prove he does have weapons and is not disarming them.
2) Many nations aren't stable, we can't just replace the govermnet in those that aren't. Argentina has been far from stable for a long time and we haven't messed with it. Peru had a huge change of government about a year and are now giving the IMF a big ol' FU. We haven't done anything there.
3) K... I'm not touching that one other than see #2... On this one, I feel a regime change should be made, but I don't think America has the right to decide that. We can't push our values onto the rest of the world. Personally, this is my biggest disgust with Saddam is the complete ignorance of the Iraqi people's suffering.
4) And who's to say our country doesn't sell or give weapons on the black market. We knew Russia used to, but we didn't do anything. Countries around the world participate in the black market.
joe, I agree that most of what Saddam is doing is wrong (IMO), but nearly everything has been concealed to the point that we don't really know exactly what all is happening. The atrocities we do know about, I consider unforgivable, but it's all based on my (White middle-class American and Catholic) values.
One of the premises America was founded on is that people are Innocent Until Proven Guilty. For capital punishment especially, the person must be found guilty UNANIMOUSLY. If Saddam could be convicted unanimously, then why do other nations disagree with the US? If he was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to have commited atrocities worthy of war, I could actually support the US invading. I don't think there is enough proof to war, and that may change as more information comes out.
2) Many nations aren't stable, we can't just replace the govermnet in those that aren't. Argentina has been far from stable for a long time and we haven't messed with it. Peru had a huge change of government about a year and are now giving the IMF a big ol' FU. We haven't done anything there.
3) K... I'm not touching that one other than see #2... On this one, I feel a regime change should be made, but I don't think America has the right to decide that. We can't push our values onto the rest of the world. Personally, this is my biggest disgust with Saddam is the complete ignorance of the Iraqi people's suffering.
4) And who's to say our country doesn't sell or give weapons on the black market. We knew Russia used to, but we didn't do anything. Countries around the world participate in the black market.
joe, I agree that most of what Saddam is doing is wrong (IMO), but nearly everything has been concealed to the point that we don't really know exactly what all is happening. The atrocities we do know about, I consider unforgivable, but it's all based on my (White middle-class American and Catholic) values.
One of the premises America was founded on is that people are Innocent Until Proven Guilty. For capital punishment especially, the person must be found guilty UNANIMOUSLY. If Saddam could be convicted unanimously, then why do other nations disagree with the US? If he was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to have commited atrocities worthy of war, I could actually support the US invading. I don't think there is enough proof to war, and that may change as more information comes out.
UHRBid
Reply #255 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:33 PM
Reply #255 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:33 PM
drat... I'm a slow typer.... I knew the oil one too...
This conflict isn't just about oil, but I think that is a part of it.
We also get lots of oil from Mexico...
This conflict isn't just about oil, but I think that is a part of it.
We also get lots of oil from Mexico...
werewolf
Reply #256 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:33 PM
Reply #256 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:33 PM
"Personally, this is my biggest disgust with Saddam is the complete ignorance of the Iraqi people's suffering."
oh, please...he knows exactly what's happening to them.
oh, please...he knows exactly what's happening to them.
KarmaGirl
Reply #257 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:36 PM
Reply #257 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:36 PM
BTW, in case people don't know for sure where I stand, I am not generally for wars. (Look at my name, my icon: 
, and the fact that I eat a mainly vegetarian diet, wear birkenstocks when it is warm and have a Lava Lamp on my desk.)
*BUT* (there always is one, isn't there?) I also do not believe that a nation that has the power to help another nation should sit back and do nothing. If any nation's people need help, it is Iraq.
I was also reading a report that a lot of people in Iraq were moving into make shift camps on the perimeters of the land. Why were they doing that? Not because they are afraid of the US, but because they feared that Saddam would lash out at the people during this time of crisis. It is also reported that many of the troops in Iraq will not support Saddam. What does that say about the country?
, and the fact that I eat a mainly vegetarian diet, wear birkenstocks when it is warm and have a Lava Lamp on my desk.) *BUT* (there always is one, isn't there?) I also do not believe that a nation that has the power to help another nation should sit back and do nothing. If any nation's people need help, it is Iraq.
I was also reading a report that a lot of people in Iraq were moving into make shift camps on the perimeters of the land. Why were they doing that? Not because they are afraid of the US, but because they feared that Saddam would lash out at the people during this time of crisis. It is also reported that many of the troops in Iraq will not support Saddam. What does that say about the country?
Green Armani
Reply #258 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:37 PM
Reply #258 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:37 PM
If you need proof that Saddam has WMD's and chemical weapons, then I suggest you read the headlines...he has already stated he will use these supposedly disposed of weapons to fight against an invasion.
Like you said you don't think that the US should force it's views on other parts of the world but how can you then say that it isn't doing anything in other countries where help is clearyly needed. It's almost like the US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. Something is not right here.
Like you said you don't think that the US should force it's views on other parts of the world but how can you then say that it isn't doing anything in other countries where help is clearyly needed. It's almost like the US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. Something is not right here.
KarmaGirl
Reply #259 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:39 PM
Reply #259 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:39 PM
UHRBid:"drat... I'm a slow typer.... I knew the oil one too..."
I would hope so
Wouldn't they throw you out of Texas if you didn't?
I would hope so
Wouldn't they throw you out of Texas if you didn't?
IPlural
Reply #260 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:42 PM
Reply #260 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 3:42 PM
well US oil reserves are just that, reserves in case of war, or some such and a dire need, though we do tap into them. Actually oil being a part of it is very real, and very smart in the end, but they need to be open and honest about it. Hitler proved you do not fight a war without OIL, things don't run without gas, bearings freeze up, engines cease up, nope, can not fight squat without oil...
That is what I have ment a number of times when I said they need to be honest, tell it like it is and dealw ith it, don't smoke screen it or put a pspin on it. Like the question about would the USA still occupy Iraq if Saddam and company left, of course we will, but why didn't they say it from the begining? Instead of letting some reporter ask about it and then kicking it around for a bit before stating as much... That opens up to many possible paths for people to get wiggy with it....
Frogboy stated it very concise and on target about Bush and his social skills as a leader
I would go a step further though and say he needs to present things so people feel he is OF the people and not a Bill Gates type of director...
Even if he doesn't like it, he needs to hold peoples hands thorughout this stuff and paint big picture with large text so everyone stays on the same page...
Oh and quit it with pushing the fear button everytime it seems people are falling to the road side in supporting him...
anyway....
That is what I have ment a number of times when I said they need to be honest, tell it like it is and dealw ith it, don't smoke screen it or put a pspin on it. Like the question about would the USA still occupy Iraq if Saddam and company left, of course we will, but why didn't they say it from the begining? Instead of letting some reporter ask about it and then kicking it around for a bit before stating as much... That opens up to many possible paths for people to get wiggy with it....
Frogboy stated it very concise and on target about Bush and his social skills as a leader
I would go a step further though and say he needs to present things so people feel he is OF the people and not a Bill Gates type of director...
Even if he doesn't like it, he needs to hold peoples hands thorughout this stuff and paint big picture with large text so everyone stays on the same page...
Oh and quit it with pushing the fear button everytime it seems people are falling to the road side in supporting him...
anyway....
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Reply #241 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:31 PM
That is really bad...