Sally's editorial on ratings
Monday, March 10, 2003 by Delicious | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Oh No! 
Since Jafo posted my skin ratings I have been perplexed. The rating work like this: If there are two ratings, a 1 and a 10 then the skin is rated 5.
This curve is OK I guess.
It would seem more beneficial if there was something coded into the web page by the rating thing to spur more ppl to make a rating.
Like, Please take the time to rate this skin to assure an overall accurate rating.
]Opinions expressed in this thread are not necessarily those of a sane person.[
Since Jafo posted my skin ratings I have been perplexed. The rating work like this: If there are two ratings, a 1 and a 10 then the skin is rated 5.
This curve is OK I guess.
It would seem more beneficial if there was something coded into the web page by the rating thing to spur more ppl to make a rating.
Like, Please take the time to rate this skin to assure an overall accurate rating.
]Opinions expressed in this thread are not necessarily those of a sane person.[
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Ande
Reply #42 Monday, March 10, 2003 6:29 PM
Reply #42 Monday, March 10, 2003 6:29 PM
Delicious, No reason why you can't bring it up again, But there have been longer and more constructive threads about the voting system than this one, and Wincustomise/Stardock have stated there will be no change, period. But no harm in trying i suppose. 
sig101
Reply #43 Monday, March 10, 2003 6:39 PM
Reply #43 Monday, March 10, 2003 6:39 PM
Knatzz: yes, there have been "this sucks" comments and worse on some skins. Really outrageous and profane comments can be reported to the moderators and deleted and have been. It may not be that common but it does happen on occasion.
paxx
Reply #44 Monday, March 10, 2003 7:08 PM
Reply #44 Monday, March 10, 2003 7:08 PM
knatzz, I must say I wholeheartedly agree with you. Some people just can't take ANY criticism. As if the only reason they skinned was to get flattered. I guess some people need the boost to feel better about themselves.
But rest assured, most of us always welcome a good constructive critique. There is no better way to improve your work.
But rest assured, most of us always welcome a good constructive critique. There is no better way to improve your work.
knatzz
Reply #45 Monday, March 10, 2003 7:28 PM
Reply #45 Monday, March 10, 2003 7:28 PM
sig101, it's sad to here that it happens. NOBODY should be told that their work sucks, I know the amount of work it takes to do these first hand. The bad comments are removed per request though, and I would imagine that the "this sucks" comment reflects more negatively on the citizen who posted it then on the work or artist he/she is trying to bash. Still, I see only good things from a more in depth rating system, especially the idea of a separate, more in depth rating by other skinners, who i'm sure would choose thier words more carefully. I just want to better my own work and an idea like this one would surely help 
davad70
Reply #46 Monday, March 10, 2003 7:38 PM
Reply #46 Monday, March 10, 2003 7:38 PM
It's interesting to hear such well thought out arguments regarding the rating sytem, from some people whom the sytem doesn't affect.
As an example only...when is the last time you received some criticism or an "unfair" rating on a skin that you made? A year or so maybe?
So maybe ratings/criticism don't seem like a big deal to you, but some people who are regular submittors fell like there's a problem and grow tired of dealing with it.
Personally, it matters much less to me than it used to. I could complain about average or substandard skins, or the same author over and over being featured here, or Brad featuring his own skins, while mine are rarely ever featured. But I don't fight it any more because it doesn't matter much, and would accomplish nothing. I could complain about unfair ratings like I used to, but I gave up on that also because ratings used to mean a lot to me because they were "peer" ratings. Now there are few of those since the ability to rate people's work became something that could be bought.
I would imagine among all the skinners here, there are many many different reasons why they do it. Some do it for recognition, some for art's sake, some for exposure leading to a possible career and maybe some out of sheer boredom. No one else's motivation is any more valid than the next to me. Regardless of their motivation they still deserve equal treatment.
As an example only...when is the last time you received some criticism or an "unfair" rating on a skin that you made? A year or so maybe?
So maybe ratings/criticism don't seem like a big deal to you, but some people who are regular submittors fell like there's a problem and grow tired of dealing with it.
Personally, it matters much less to me than it used to. I could complain about average or substandard skins, or the same author over and over being featured here, or Brad featuring his own skins, while mine are rarely ever featured. But I don't fight it any more because it doesn't matter much, and would accomplish nothing. I could complain about unfair ratings like I used to, but I gave up on that also because ratings used to mean a lot to me because they were "peer" ratings. Now there are few of those since the ability to rate people's work became something that could be bought.
I would imagine among all the skinners here, there are many many different reasons why they do it. Some do it for recognition, some for art's sake, some for exposure leading to a possible career and maybe some out of sheer boredom. No one else's motivation is any more valid than the next to me. Regardless of their motivation they still deserve equal treatment.
knatzz
Reply #47 Monday, March 10, 2003 7:39 PM
Reply #47 Monday, March 10, 2003 7:39 PM
Paxx, I know most welcome the criticism. When I said that I meant I have seen one or two instances, it's nit-picking, I know. I'm sure almost all of us are starved for the "constructivism" (I love that word now) It's all the more reason to do something like that though. 
But I have thrown down about an extra $3.50 on my original 2 cents, so i'm going to shut up now. bye all
But I have thrown down about an extra $3.50 on my original 2 cents, so i'm going to shut up now. bye all
sig101
Reply #48 Monday, March 10, 2003 7:40 PM
Reply #48 Monday, March 10, 2003 7:40 PM
Actually knatzz I think that's why some skinners don't regard the ratings. They're not particularly helpful. More often I see skinners look forward to people providing helpful comments saying what is that either is particularly remarkable or pleasing or if there are glitches or problems with a skin or if perhaps something might be reworked to a better effect. But that requires more effort on the poster's part. Or in my case, knowledge. If there's a glitch I can't suggest how to fix it. But I've seen some skinners being very helpful to others with their comments and that's really cool when it happens.
paxx
Reply #49 Monday, March 10, 2003 10:04 PM
Reply #49 Monday, March 10, 2003 10:04 PM
davad, who was that comment for? me?
What does it matter when was the last criticism I got for one of my skin? So what if it was one year ago? How would that be different than if it was just last week?
Anyway, one of the persons who I most value the comments is Craeonics. Never, ever has he given me a "good" comment. Always he told me where he thought my skins were lacking, and I've always been greatfull that he took the time to tell me. I'm not talking about the "This suck" comment which have the same value to me as a "This rocks". Both are pointless and offer nothing. Tell me what you like about it, tell me what you don't like about it. That's the kind of things I want to hear.
Or were you talking about how I like my skins to be rated? Excuse me to differ, but to me, if a skin is unusable, it's not a good skin. Period. Using a skin, to me, is the very elementary necessity for a good skin. Say I see a tie-die shirt, the kind of shirts that the hippies used to wear. They had some pretty fancy ones that had 4 or 5 colours. Now that's a lot of work to get those things right. Some people still love those shirts. Personnaly, I can see the amount of work in them, but I wouldn't be caught dead wearing one. If I were to rate such a shirt, should I rate it high cause other people like it and it took a long time to make? Heck no. I would not wear it, never, so I would give it maybe a 7 for the art put in it, but it certainly would not deserve a 10 from me if I would be too embarrassed to wear the thing.
What does it matter when was the last criticism I got for one of my skin? So what if it was one year ago? How would that be different than if it was just last week?
Anyway, one of the persons who I most value the comments is Craeonics. Never, ever has he given me a "good" comment. Always he told me where he thought my skins were lacking, and I've always been greatfull that he took the time to tell me. I'm not talking about the "This suck" comment which have the same value to me as a "This rocks". Both are pointless and offer nothing. Tell me what you like about it, tell me what you don't like about it. That's the kind of things I want to hear.
Or were you talking about how I like my skins to be rated? Excuse me to differ, but to me, if a skin is unusable, it's not a good skin. Period. Using a skin, to me, is the very elementary necessity for a good skin. Say I see a tie-die shirt, the kind of shirts that the hippies used to wear. They had some pretty fancy ones that had 4 or 5 colours. Now that's a lot of work to get those things right. Some people still love those shirts. Personnaly, I can see the amount of work in them, but I wouldn't be caught dead wearing one. If I were to rate such a shirt, should I rate it high cause other people like it and it took a long time to make? Heck no. I would not wear it, never, so I would give it maybe a 7 for the art put in it, but it certainly would not deserve a 10 from me if I would be too embarrassed to wear the thing.
Jafo
Reply #50 Monday, March 10, 2003 10:30 PM
Reply #50 Monday, March 10, 2003 10:30 PM
I still have a tie-dyed Tee-shirt....got it in '72...
davad70
Reply #51 Monday, March 10, 2003 10:31 PM
Reply #51 Monday, March 10, 2003 10:31 PM
No paxx, that reference wasn't specifically for you or I would have stated so. You've been on record for a long time as believing that the rating system is useless. Just making the point that many people wonder why Delicious brings this up so often. To many people it's a silly argument and pointless to bring up, but to her and others it's something that, at least in their mind, they deal with every time they upload something, therefore it shouldn't be trivialized. You don't agree that perceived "injustices" would be more relevant to someone who uploads once a week than they would be to a person who uploads once a year? It has been about a year for you though, hasn't it? I'm still waiting for the XP version of iWIN.
IPlural
Reply #52 Monday, March 10, 2003 11:50 PM
Reply #52 Monday, March 10, 2003 11:50 PM
someone knocks on my door at that time of night a number of time will get hosed down...
but I understand your point...
but I understand your point...
IPlural
Reply #53 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 2:07 AM
Reply #53 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 2:07 AM
oh I've got one of those Jafo, well, more than one actually, with peace symbols on em
and bandanas and flops, a few single ear rings and a couple of high times teehirts
mmm...
and bandanas and flops, a few single ear rings and a couple of high times teehirts
mmm...
Delicious
Reply #54 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 5:00 AM
Reply #54 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 5:00 AM
Interesting, Sad and yet hard to believe.
For a Company and a program that is based around change and not wanting to change their site policies is a tragedy.
It is also a sad situation when they have to "spy" on the ppl that rate skins. I wonder how many ppl that rate a skin know that they are submitting their name also. How many are going to hesitate now that they know.
Living in the USA I guess I am custom to privacy rights and this appears less than being a private voting system. What advantages are to be gained by intruding on a vote but to gather info about the voter. Is that a privacy issue? I say yes.
But Please don't make any change because that just might improve the site.
For a Company and a program that is based around change and not wanting to change their site policies is a tragedy.
It is also a sad situation when they have to "spy" on the ppl that rate skins. I wonder how many ppl that rate a skin know that they are submitting their name also. How many are going to hesitate now that they know.
Living in the USA I guess I am custom to privacy rights and this appears less than being a private voting system. What advantages are to be gained by intruding on a vote but to gather info about the voter. Is that a privacy issue? I say yes.
But Please don't make any change because that just might improve the site.
paxx
Reply #55 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 6:02 AM
Reply #55 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 6:02 AM
Delicious, the site isn't going to change, it's been discussed countlessly on this board and on the admin board, and it's not gonna happen. When I made this rating chart, I made it because I thought that without the SAME evaluating grid, people would not be rating the same things. I made the grid when I finally realised the rating system was not going to go. That was probably two years ago, or around there.
Also, about the private rating thing. Only admins see it, and it's VERY useful. And the users, you, too, are the first ones to benefit. That's how we found out when some skinners systematically rate 0 every skin that may compete with their skin in the top 10 spot. Formal warnings are made and the problem is usualy solved.
Also, about the private rating thing. Only admins see it, and it's VERY useful. And the users, you, too, are the first ones to benefit. That's how we found out when some skinners systematically rate 0 every skin that may compete with their skin in the top 10 spot. Formal warnings are made and the problem is usualy solved.
Delicious
Reply #56 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 7:01 AM
Reply #56 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 7:01 AM
I can see now that trying to make suggestions for a positive change is a waste of time.
Pushing a positive/constructive view that is prevalent here appears to be a one sided issue.
I will no longer make any kind of suggestion or bring this matter up.
However, 2 years is a long time to keep one's head buried in the sand but if that is policy then such is life. It is not my server so carry on or stay still.
Pushing a positive/constructive view that is prevalent here appears to be a one sided issue.
I will no longer make any kind of suggestion or bring this matter up.
However, 2 years is a long time to keep one's head buried in the sand but if that is policy then such is life. It is not my server so carry on or stay still.
Jafo
Reply #57 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 7:03 AM
Reply #57 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 7:03 AM
Even standing still, we are travelling at 5000 miles per second.
Food for thought....
Food for thought....
vizo
Reply #58 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 7:41 AM
Reply #58 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 7:41 AM
Personally, I agree with the earlier post that said the ratings weren't really helpful, in as much as you have no way of knowing why a skin got the rating it did. The whole thing seems like more of a popularity contest than an evaluation on style, technique, artistry, etc.
Although it sounds like it will never happen, at least in the forseeable future, it would be nice to have feedback from a selected # of advanced skinners on every skin. Several years ago, I was a member of an online poetry club and every work you submitted was evaluated by at least 4 other members on style, form, etc. This enabled the writer to improve with real advice and comments from other writers, not just "cool poem". I have only been making skins for a couple of months or so, but I'm not sure if I've ever had any helpful comment from any other skinners. I think the comments I've gotten have been mostly from ppl that come here to download but wouldn't know where to start in evaluating a skin on it merits.
As I said, it probably won't happen but maybe some skinners, especially new ones like me, yearn for help, advice and so forth and the ratings just don't get it done.
ok, that's my 2 cents
Although it sounds like it will never happen, at least in the forseeable future, it would be nice to have feedback from a selected # of advanced skinners on every skin. Several years ago, I was a member of an online poetry club and every work you submitted was evaluated by at least 4 other members on style, form, etc. This enabled the writer to improve with real advice and comments from other writers, not just "cool poem". I have only been making skins for a couple of months or so, but I'm not sure if I've ever had any helpful comment from any other skinners. I think the comments I've gotten have been mostly from ppl that come here to download but wouldn't know where to start in evaluating a skin on it merits.
As I said, it probably won't happen but maybe some skinners, especially new ones like me, yearn for help, advice and so forth and the ratings just don't get it done.
ok, that's my 2 cents
Lecrayon
Reply #59 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 7:50 AM
Reply #59 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 7:50 AM
Like Davad I have given up on the ratings too. The only thing that I look for is some constructive criticism so that I can improve for a next try. Those comments are hard to find though. Paxx has given me his rating grid when there was another thread about ratings. It is a good way to sort out what is importanr to a skin.
mossedmoon
Reply #60 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 8:20 AM
Reply #60 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 8:20 AM
Hey paxx, would you please send me your rating grid at [email protected] so I can check it out; it would be much appreciated. I've seen alot of good and viable comments here as well as in previous threads on this topic. I feel (I hate to commit myself), that the rating system is poor at best and is in sore need of revamping. I've ignored it for quite some time now as well as amount of downloads which I won't even broach here. It would be interesting to know which skins people have been consistantly using the most, as I've gone through the process of download, implement, oh, and dump...
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Reply #41 Monday, March 10, 2003 6:28 PM