DesktopX - form vs function
Thursday, March 6, 2003 by _Martin_ | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Just want to stimulate a debate (not an argument), to try and work out what people actually want from DesktopX.
DX has huge capability for delivering great 'function' via script and plugins yet noone seems to care.
Personally when I create my DX themes I like functionality like news on my desktop, weather etc that I can all do via DesktopX. However, I have noted that my stuff containing functionality provokes little intest, whereas other themes which are mainly 'form' are hugely popular.
Personally I don't care if people don't like the way my themes look or what they do, but I'm really surprised that there aren't more 'functional' themes and objects about. Hell, I'd like to use someone else's stuff for once instead of having ideas myself.
Is the 'function' to hard to do or do people just not want it? It seems that Stardock are putting a lot of effort into adding 'function' into DX but noone is using it.
Thoughts?
DX has huge capability for delivering great 'function' via script and plugins yet noone seems to care.
Personally when I create my DX themes I like functionality like news on my desktop, weather etc that I can all do via DesktopX. However, I have noted that my stuff containing functionality provokes little intest, whereas other themes which are mainly 'form' are hugely popular.
Personally I don't care if people don't like the way my themes look or what they do, but I'm really surprised that there aren't more 'functional' themes and objects about. Hell, I'd like to use someone else's stuff for once instead of having ideas myself.
Is the 'function' to hard to do or do people just not want it? It seems that Stardock are putting a lot of effort into adding 'function' into DX but noone is using it.
Thoughts?
 |
|
Page 1 of 2 | |
|
|---|
BoXXi
Reply #2 Thursday, March 6, 2003 1:29 PM
Reply #2 Thursday, March 6, 2003 1:29 PM
Good topic Martin! I often consider these points myself, but so far I haven't come up with a concrete answer. When I first started skinning, I was always advised to skin for myself first and foremost. I have always followed that advice, and I make things that I find interesting and attractive, and that suit the way I use my system.
I guess a lot of it comes down to personal preference. I have the TV on a news channel while I am sitting here, and I can see the weather out the window!
so, personally I have no need of those things. I must admit, if we are to call ourselves serious DX themers, we should include every aspect of the programs functionality into all our themes, but I doubt there are many themers who really do this. From my point of view, this is because some of us are technically challenged yet good with graphics and get bogged down by all this scripting stuff. (my learning curve with all this new stuff is steep enough already, thank you!) And some folks laugh their way through these scripts and the other complicated stuff, but find it hard (or don't have the time) to create an interesting look for their work.
I think the bottom line is this; most of the people who come here are looking for a cool graphical look for their system, if they find what they want in that respect, and then find that the author has included lots of functionality into it too, then that is a bonus.
I'm sure their is a healthy mix of technically minded and graphically minded people here, so maybe the ideal situation would be to have more collaboration between the authors to produce fully functional yet beautiful themes. The problem with this idea is that most artists are egotistical, (it's a fact, deal with it!) and want the rewards and glory for themselves, and the technical guys would always feel second best in this environment where graphics appear to be king. (come on all you fellow artists, admit it, we are egotistical, sensitive beasts
)
I am going to think further on this topic Martin, and try to work out what the ideal theme would be.
Thanks for bringing this up!
I guess a lot of it comes down to personal preference. I have the TV on a news channel while I am sitting here, and I can see the weather out the window!
so, personally I have no need of those things. I must admit, if we are to call ourselves serious DX themers, we should include every aspect of the programs functionality into all our themes, but I doubt there are many themers who really do this. From my point of view, this is because some of us are technically challenged yet good with graphics and get bogged down by all this scripting stuff. (my learning curve with all this new stuff is steep enough already, thank you!) And some folks laugh their way through these scripts and the other complicated stuff, but find it hard (or don't have the time) to create an interesting look for their work.I think the bottom line is this; most of the people who come here are looking for a cool graphical look for their system, if they find what they want in that respect, and then find that the author has included lots of functionality into it too, then that is a bonus.
I'm sure their is a healthy mix of technically minded and graphically minded people here, so maybe the ideal situation would be to have more collaboration between the authors to produce fully functional yet beautiful themes. The problem with this idea is that most artists are egotistical, (it's a fact, deal with it!) and want the rewards and glory for themselves, and the technical guys would always feel second best in this environment where graphics appear to be king. (come on all you fellow artists, admit it, we are egotistical, sensitive beasts
)I am going to think further on this topic Martin, and try to work out what the ideal theme would be.
Thanks for bringing this up!
pjpowell
Reply #3 Thursday, March 6, 2003 3:27 PM
Reply #3 Thursday, March 6, 2003 3:27 PM
Personally I think there needs to be a bit of both. I like a desktop that looks great but also lets me get to what I need to. Been playing with some of the cooler aspects of DXScript over the past two weeks. Discovered there's some very interesting stuff you can do without a huge lot of programming experience. Of course for the really cool stuff some programming experience is very useful There is an extremely useful thing called the WMI on 2K and XP which opens the possibilities for getting system information (including performance data) directly via a script and without using plugins. I currently have two net meters on my desktop that are using standard WMI calls available on 2K and XP. 95/98/NT can use WMI but it's an additional install and does not have all the same functionality.
As to the collaboration idea, I am planning to do exactly that with a theme in the near future. A master skinner will do the graphics and I'll help with the more technical scripting bits.
There is an extremely useful thing called the WMI on 2K and XP which opens the possibilities for getting system information (including performance data) directly via a script and without using plugins. I currently have two net meters on my desktop that are using standard WMI calls available on 2K and XP. 95/98/NT can use WMI but it's an additional install and does not have all the same functionality.As to the collaboration idea, I am planning to do exactly that with a theme in the near future. A master skinner will do the graphics and I'll help with the more technical scripting bits.
DYSEQTA
Reply #4 Thursday, March 6, 2003 3:58 PM
Reply #4 Thursday, March 6, 2003 3:58 PM
I believe that functionality doesnt have to be foregone in favour of visual appeal. Any DX designer worth their salt will achieve both. I am currently working on a series of plugins for DX that will allow DXer's complete freedom visually when it comes to things like meters. pjpowel mentioned WMI, well my first plug to be released (don't hold your breath, it's being developed in my spare time) will be using WMI and MBM data to provide system information to the user. Visually the user will provide graphics in the classic DX format (frames stiched horizontally). I began developing this plugin to facilitate something I needed to do for my theme. My entire DX interface is 3D rendered as a 1600x1200 animation, I then chop my objects out of that animation and the first full 1600x1200 frame of the animation (where all "objects" are in their default state) is used as the wallpaper. So I have 3D rendered meters complete with real shadows and reflections etc:) very nice! The flexibility this plugin provides is amazing whilst at the same time making the minimum impact possible on system performance. I hope to have an alpha build ready for the public in 3 months or so.
I hope this didnt become to much of an incoherent drivle fest...it is 7AM and I havent slept yet.
I hope this didnt become to much of an incoherent drivle fest...it is 7AM and I havent slept yet.
feline
Reply #5 Thursday, March 6, 2003 4:33 PM
Reply #5 Thursday, March 6, 2003 4:33 PM
i want both form and function from DX, but there used to be 3 main problems i ran into:
a) my old machine ran DX irritatingly slowly
when you have one monitor at 1024*768 with 14 open windows, what is a desktop? i don't see mine for hours at a time
c) i was interested in DX scripts, but with no experience in script or windows programming, combined with no experience in graphics, i felt like i hit a real brick wall instantly.
all this experience was based on when DX script support was first introduced.
since then i have got a more powerful computer, but the other two facts haven't changed
i love the idea of powerful plug-in's and system meters, and i have managed to used the SDTaskManager plug-in in my OB theme to produce two overlayed line graphs. one for CPU and one for network traffic.
however, i recently tried to reproduce this on my work machine, and i couldn't remember how to configure the plug-in. *blush*
i fiddle with OD programs, but don't wish to spend vast amounts of time learning scripting languages in order to program them.
the other basic problem i ran into quite quickly was, there are only three system parameters i actually wanted to monitor, and the third (time connected on my dial-up connection) i have never worked out how to do with DX, or any DX plug-in. the other two i already have sorted.
so, i am strongly drawn to the idea of DX, but since i never see my desktop, and have no clearly defined "need", i have never been able to work out what it does that i want. *sigh*
i suspect that many of these points, to some degree or other, apply to other people as well.
taking MSWord as an example, it is programmable (macros), but how many of you have ever seen this feature used? most people are either not interested in, or are intimidated by, programming. so from that perspective the lack of interest in programming DX doesn't surprise me at all.
a) my old machine ran DX irritatingly slowly
when you have one monitor at 1024*768 with 14 open windows, what is a desktop? i don't see mine for hours at a timec) i was interested in DX scripts, but with no experience in script or windows programming, combined with no experience in graphics, i felt like i hit a real brick wall instantly.
all this experience was based on when DX script support was first introduced.
since then i have got a more powerful computer, but the other two facts haven't changed
i love the idea of powerful plug-in's and system meters, and i have managed to used the SDTaskManager plug-in in my OB theme to produce two overlayed line graphs. one for CPU and one for network traffic.
however, i recently tried to reproduce this on my work machine, and i couldn't remember how to configure the plug-in. *blush*
i fiddle with OD programs, but don't wish to spend vast amounts of time learning scripting languages in order to program them.
the other basic problem i ran into quite quickly was, there are only three system parameters i actually wanted to monitor, and the third (time connected on my dial-up connection) i have never worked out how to do with DX, or any DX plug-in. the other two i already have sorted.
so, i am strongly drawn to the idea of DX, but since i never see my desktop, and have no clearly defined "need", i have never been able to work out what it does that i want. *sigh*
i suspect that many of these points, to some degree or other, apply to other people as well.
taking MSWord as an example, it is programmable (macros), but how many of you have ever seen this feature used? most people are either not interested in, or are intimidated by, programming. so from that perspective the lack of interest in programming DX doesn't surprise me at all.
elvee
Reply #6 Thursday, March 6, 2003 5:10 PM
Reply #6 Thursday, March 6, 2003 5:10 PM
I have never tried using Script yet, But i have a question about it...Can I make objects move from point A to point B using Script?. I'm not talking about a few pixels here and there, I am talking about possibly going from one side of the screen to the other with maybe some turns along the way.
If this can be done to one object, then I am to assume I could make my whole desktop come alive with just a single command?. I believe in complete and functional DesktopX themes, but when it comes to scripting, I am a total NooB
If DX Script had this much control and power then I would be very interested in learning how to do it
If this can be done to one object, then I am to assume I could make my whole desktop come alive with just a single command?. I believe in complete and functional DesktopX themes, but when it comes to scripting, I am a total NooB
If DX Script had this much control and power then I would be very interested in learning how to do it
Chef Garry
Reply #7 Thursday, March 6, 2003 5:21 PM
Reply #7 Thursday, March 6, 2003 5:21 PM
I agree with Aqua and Feline. I've tried a few, configured them to the way I might find them most useful and then stopped bothering. I rarely see the desktop and when I do, I like a cool wall without icons or other distractions.
I fiddled with Object Bar for a while and even made one or two for my own use but it's easier to configure the XP taskbar with toolbars to point to what I need. The DesktopX stuff looks really neat and all but in the end, it doesn't fit the way I work. That doesn't stop it from being worthwhile to others though.
I fiddled with Object Bar for a while and even made one or two for my own use but it's easier to configure the XP taskbar with toolbars to point to what I need. The DesktopX stuff looks really neat and all but in the end, it doesn't fit the way I work. That doesn't stop it from being worthwhile to others though.
joetheblow
Reply #8 Thursday, March 6, 2003 5:31 PM
Reply #8 Thursday, March 6, 2003 5:31 PM
I have been wanting to do just what you are doing, but I have not did any scripts for deskop X that work as of yet. I even wanted to make a desktop X game using scripts (VB script) and I was going to call it Space warriors or something, but I couldn't get it to work.
Also I had bad expieriences with DX scripts that give you weather or news on your desktop. even the word of the day from dictionary.com didn't work.
I would love to have more function to my desktop but I also love to have a nice form as well. In Architecture, form verses function has always been a battle. It looks nice but it also has to work... or if it works then why does it also work better if it looks nice.
Also I had bad expieriences with DX scripts that give you weather or news on your desktop. even the word of the day from dictionary.com didn't work.
I would love to have more function to my desktop but I also love to have a nice form as well. In Architecture, form verses function has always been a battle. It looks nice but it also has to work... or if it works then why does it also work better if it looks nice.
joetheblow
Reply #9 Thursday, March 6, 2003 5:39 PM
Reply #9 Thursday, March 6, 2003 5:39 PM
It would also be nice if there were more tutorials on scripts for DX too.
_Martin_
Reply #10 Thursday, March 6, 2003 7:09 PM
Reply #10 Thursday, March 6, 2003 7:09 PM
Hmm, I think a mini site designed specifically to have with code samples that are NOT graphical at all might be called for.
This might make a few more people pick up on the idea.
Thoughts?
This might make a few more people pick up on the idea.
Thoughts?
snarph
Reply #12 Thursday, March 6, 2003 8:55 PM
Reply #12 Thursday, March 6, 2003 8:55 PM
Functionality is a great concept, but how user friendly is it currently. I have fielded a question or two about how to configure select items only to find out that certain aspects of desktopx are some times not present in all versions on all machines? if you make it so you can look at the doc file or the help file and replicate the form fit and function by any user of average intelligence you would probable find more use of these types of features in themes.I like the idea of script snippets that you could use like plug-ins, some thing that gives you a starting point. But if its easy-er to make it interesting to look at then make it do functional things what can you expect
snarph
Reply #13 Thursday, March 6, 2003 8:58 PM
Reply #13 Thursday, March 6, 2003 8:58 PM
oh yea this latest version that is avalable currently is very shakey it loaded over the top of the old version as if it was a stand alone. IN order to load the themes that were already in desktopx i had to browse my system and tell dx to load them like they were just downloaded
elvee
Reply #14 Thursday, March 6, 2003 9:39 PM
Reply #14 Thursday, March 6, 2003 9:39 PM
I looked over the DX Script Tutorial and tried out the examples, and pretty cool
Once i get a handle on some of the Script langauges and get comfortable with the Active X controls...I think that i would Enjoy it
Only problem though...When I made a new object and followed the example...the object wouldnt work, I mean the script didnt perform...at all. Doing the same to an existing object and it worked great!
Once i get a handle on some of the Script langauges and get comfortable with the Active X controls...I think that i would Enjoy it
Only problem though...When I made a new object and followed the example...the object wouldnt work, I mean the script didnt perform...at all. Doing the same to an existing object and it worked great!
joetheblow
Reply #15 Thursday, March 6, 2003 9:40 PM
Reply #15 Thursday, March 6, 2003 9:40 PM
I know of which you speak snarph. i find if I want to make or use a specific utility that only way I can get it is if it is in another theme (it was an object in one theme and I tried to make that same object in another theme and iether it was not available or did not have as many features). I could not make it from scratch. It might have been a oversight.
I really love DX EXSPECAILLY since I know of computer technology and scripting. DX is like the next step in OS interfacing as far as I am conserned. Many things can be done with scripting powers. You could biuld a program within DX. Have it access a database online of offline, make work easier by putting things where you need them. Even if you do not see you desktop, you could program it to alert you of stuff.
I really think it is great. I think if there was a more detailed tutorial on DX scripts it would bee nicer.
Some one posted before where could they find a theme that had icon floating around the desktop. DX can o that with VB script. The question is does anyone know how.
I really love DX EXSPECAILLY since I know of computer technology and scripting. DX is like the next step in OS interfacing as far as I am conserned. Many things can be done with scripting powers. You could biuld a program within DX. Have it access a database online of offline, make work easier by putting things where you need them. Even if you do not see you desktop, you could program it to alert you of stuff.
I really think it is great. I think if there was a more detailed tutorial on DX scripts it would bee nicer.
Some one posted before where could they find a theme that had icon floating around the desktop. DX can o that with VB script. The question is does anyone know how.
joetheblow
Reply #16 Thursday, March 6, 2003 10:35 PM
Reply #16 Thursday, March 6, 2003 10:35 PM
Hey I just took a look at some of the stuff you did and I have to say... THATS GREAT STUFF!!! That is exactly what I want in some of my themes. One in piticular come to mind:
https://www.wincustomize.com/skins.asp?library=3&SkinID=2245
Soooooo, you did that with VB script? Javascript?
https://www.wincustomize.com/skins.asp?library=3&SkinID=2245
Soooooo, you did that with VB script? Javascript?
pjpowell
Reply #18 Friday, March 7, 2003 4:43 AM
Reply #18 Friday, March 7, 2003 4:43 AM
Yes. You can have objects move around the screen using dxscript. I have a few example AVI's of what my current DX theme is doing in dxscript on my web site.
http://pjpowell.dyndns.org/temp/movies
View the flash.html files rather than the avi's as they are much smaller.
The dxdemo demonstrates objects that will return home when the 'close' button is clicked on them. Also a bar that has a sliding drawer.
The smartmenus and smartmenus2 demonstrate scripted menu's.
I am still very early on into the theme so there is a lot more I want to do. I am very excited by the prospects of dxscript and hope more people start using it.
http://pjpowell.dyndns.org/temp/movies
View the flash.html files rather than the avi's as they are much smaller.
The dxdemo demonstrates objects that will return home when the 'close' button is clicked on them. Also a bar that has a sliding drawer.
The smartmenus and smartmenus2 demonstrate scripted menu's.
I am still very early on into the theme so there is a lot more I want to do. I am very excited by the prospects of dxscript and hope more people start using it.
_Martin_
Reply #20 Friday, March 7, 2003 4:56 AM
Reply #20 Friday, March 7, 2003 4:56 AM
Elvee,
Moving objects is really easy. There is a bouncing ball sample install by default with DX from memory. The code is also in the vbscript tutorial which is accessible from the script editor.
Moving objects is really easy. There is a bouncing ball sample install by default with DX from memory. The code is also in the vbscript tutorial which is accessible from the script editor.
Please login to comment and/or vote for this skin.
Welcome Guest! Please take the time to register with us.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
- Richer content, access to many features that are disabled for guests like commenting on the forums and downloading skins.
- Access to a great community, with a massive database of many, many areas of interest.
- Access to contests & subscription offers like exclusive emails.
- It's simple, and FREE!
|
|
Page 1 of 2 | |
|
|---|
Reply #1 Thursday, March 6, 2003 12:50 PM
If I had a broadband connection I'd definitely want weather, news, and stocks on my desktop. But with a dial-up connection, it just isn't worth it since they would slow down other stuff I downloadloa over the the inet.
The other reason I'm not too big into DesktopX is that I almost always have a maximized window up and so for me the desktop might as well not be there.
What OD components I use:
WindowBlinds
IconPackager
ObjectDock
ObjectBar (though rarely since I haven't seen any implementations that are signifigantly better than the WinXP start menu)
The only desktop replacement I use is 3DNA, and that's mostly in place of a screensaver when I'm not actually using the computer. When I'm doing something, it goes off.