Rips - A discussion
Tuesday, March 4, 2003 by grayhaze | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Over recent months, I have noticed an alarming rise in copyright theft amongst the skinning community. It only takes a quick look through this very message board to find numerous reports of unauthorised modification and redistribution of WindowBlinds skins, icons and wallpapers.
It's really encouraging to see that skinning is becoming an everyday part of computer use and, as Frogboy tells us time and time again, skinning is constantly on the rise. It seems however that this public exposure has a downside. As more people discover skinning, so the 'ripping' trend continues to grow.
I have to admit that a large factor in my decision to stop skinning was the fact that I had little or no control over the use of my work once it had been released to the public. I got tired of finding threads on various boards around the net where people were simultaniously bad-mouthing me while ripping my skins and passing them off as their own. I'm sure I'm not alone.
So what can we as skinners do about copyright theft? There has to come a point when we can no longer chase those who steal our work, as the situation grows beyond our capacity to monitor it. It's obvious that much of the problem stems from a lack of education and information on the subject, as it's a commonly held misconception that anything you find on the Internet is free to use as you wish. We obviously need to find a way to spread the message that copyright theft is a crime. It's common sense that stealing physical property is theft, so why not digital property?
Is there any way for us to actively protect our work? Digital watermarking goes some way toward settling disputes over ownership, but such techniques hardly lend themselves to skins which often contain large numbers of tiny images.
I'd like to hear any ideas you have on the issue, and perhaps we can start to find a way out of this mess before it truly gets out of hand.
It's really encouraging to see that skinning is becoming an everyday part of computer use and, as Frogboy tells us time and time again, skinning is constantly on the rise. It seems however that this public exposure has a downside. As more people discover skinning, so the 'ripping' trend continues to grow.
I have to admit that a large factor in my decision to stop skinning was the fact that I had little or no control over the use of my work once it had been released to the public. I got tired of finding threads on various boards around the net where people were simultaniously bad-mouthing me while ripping my skins and passing them off as their own. I'm sure I'm not alone.
So what can we as skinners do about copyright theft? There has to come a point when we can no longer chase those who steal our work, as the situation grows beyond our capacity to monitor it. It's obvious that much of the problem stems from a lack of education and information on the subject, as it's a commonly held misconception that anything you find on the Internet is free to use as you wish. We obviously need to find a way to spread the message that copyright theft is a crime. It's common sense that stealing physical property is theft, so why not digital property?
Is there any way for us to actively protect our work? Digital watermarking goes some way toward settling disputes over ownership, but such techniques hardly lend themselves to skins which often contain large numbers of tiny images.
I'd like to hear any ideas you have on the issue, and perhaps we can start to find a way out of this mess before it truly gets out of hand.
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BoXXi
Reply #42 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 10:11 AM
Reply #42 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 10:11 AM
Greyhaze: If I couldn't take a screengrab, how would I make a screenshot to display on WinCustomize when I make a new skin? Or am I missing the point? 
grayhaze
Reply #43 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 11:35 AM
Reply #43 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 11:35 AM
I hadn't thought of that BoXXi. 
There was a time when we didn't use full desktop images to show our new skins though. Maybe there's some in-between where it's possible to get a good idea of how a skin looks, whilst not providing enough graphics in the shot to reproduce the skin. For example, a lot of the sites with skins for Kalidoscope (sic), the Mac alternative to WindowBlinds, only show the top-right corner of the window with a couple of buttons. It's still not perfect, but it's an idea.
We as skinners have to try and make life as hard for the rippers as possible. At the moment, we're basically handing them our work on a plate.
There was a time when we didn't use full desktop images to show our new skins though. Maybe there's some in-between where it's possible to get a good idea of how a skin looks, whilst not providing enough graphics in the shot to reproduce the skin. For example, a lot of the sites with skins for Kalidoscope (sic), the Mac alternative to WindowBlinds, only show the top-right corner of the window with a couple of buttons. It's still not perfect, but it's an idea.
We as skinners have to try and make life as hard for the rippers as possible. At the moment, we're basically handing them our work on a plate.
grayhaze
Reply #44 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 11:40 AM
Reply #44 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 11:40 AM
Of course, there's pretty much no way whatsoever of stopping wallpapers from being stolen. They are by definition just basic image files which sit on your hard disk, so no work even needs to be done to redistribute them.
I did have an idea for applications like WindowBlinds and IconPackager though. If you have a skin/theme loaded through one of these applications then perhaps that application could intercept any attempt to make a screen grab, and black out the relevant areas in the resulting image. You could then follow the idea mentioned previously of skins being distributed in some proprietary encrypted format which hides the raw image files. With the combination of those two things, it would be considerably more difficult for a ripper to extract the images themselves.
I did have an idea for applications like WindowBlinds and IconPackager though. If you have a skin/theme loaded through one of these applications then perhaps that application could intercept any attempt to make a screen grab, and black out the relevant areas in the resulting image. You could then follow the idea mentioned previously of skins being distributed in some proprietary encrypted format which hides the raw image files. With the combination of those two things, it would be considerably more difficult for a ripper to extract the images themselves.
c242
Reply #45 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 2:44 PM
Reply #45 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 2:44 PM
Sorry, I think that is a little too much protection thinking, not to say overbloating. Reminds me of Microsoft... Maybe I just remember the old c-64 times when the game industry protected the floppies to death. You had to try up to ten times to load Your original and paid game... Next time we give away dongles with the skins ?
And I am all against that 'no screenshot' idea. I always find them interesting.
And I am all against that 'no screenshot' idea. I always find them interesting.
IPlural
Reply #46 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 3:00 PM input !!!!
very good things to file away and remember for future use for sure
I like the idea of mailing it to yourself, my stepbrothers friend did that with a couple of songs and it actually paid off in the end. She was traveling the state here in Florida playing at different live unplugged clubs and coffee shops and someone heard a couple of her originals and then changed them a bit and tried to get them cut and released as their own. The only thing that really saved her in the end was the registered letters she had sent and not opened with her different songs in them. SHes only released one
compilation of song "Shouting at Mary" but that was when the problems came about for her.
totally forgot about that
As far as OS rips go, it's a personal choice, but, for me it would be a question of why?
Art for me is self expression, release of those things inside to the outside without having to explain it all, kind of making it real and yet holding it private. Anyway....
I guess that is why Geiger ~scarab and misery seem so attractive to me in the artistic sense.
on the desktop image thingy, maybe a protected file attribute so it can not be copied out of the cache folder and a brokwn image when someone mouses over it?
Reply #46 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 3:00 PM
input !!!! very good things to file away and remember for future use for sure
I like the idea of mailing it to yourself, my stepbrothers friend did that with a couple of songs and it actually paid off in the end. She was traveling the state here in Florida playing at different live unplugged clubs and coffee shops and someone heard a couple of her originals and then changed them a bit and tried to get them cut and released as their own. The only thing that really saved her in the end was the registered letters she had sent and not opened with her different songs in them. SHes only released one
compilation of song "Shouting at Mary" but that was when the problems came about for her.
totally forgot about that
As far as OS rips go, it's a personal choice, but, for me it would be a question of why?
Art for me is self expression, release of those things inside to the outside without having to explain it all, kind of making it real and yet holding it private. Anyway....
I guess that is why Geiger ~scarab and misery seem so attractive to me in the artistic sense.
on the desktop image thingy, maybe a protected file attribute so it can not be copied out of the cache folder and a brokwn image when someone mouses over it?
IPlural
Reply #47 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 3:01 PM
Reply #47 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 3:01 PM
c242 remember Lotus and that damn floppy key? 
talk about a pain in the butt...
remember Lotus and that damn floppy key? 
talk about a pain in the butt...
Styl-X Design
Reply #48 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 4:21 PM
Reply #48 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 4:21 PM
I don't know exactly anymore what program it is, I have to look it up, but it is able to scramble code. It makes things hard to change and only with programs like icepick you can read them, but its nearly imposible to addept it that way. by the way, you can put a password on a zip file, can you put a password on a windowblindsfile?
c242
Reply #49 Thursday, March 6, 2003 12:42 AM
Reply #49 Thursday, March 6, 2003 12:42 AM
Hmm another thought came to my mind : If for example WB-skins would have a certain 1 file format like msstyles, how long would it possibly take that someones comes along and does a program similar to stylesxp that hacks this format ? 1 month ?
IPlural
Reply #50 Thursday, March 6, 2003 1:14 AM
Reply #50 Thursday, March 6, 2003 1:14 AM
so true...
I guess limiting for one things limits for everything in the end...
sad...
I guess limiting for one things limits for everything in the end...
sad...
Weaksid
Reply #51 Thursday, March 6, 2003 2:53 AM
Reply #51 Thursday, March 6, 2003 2:53 AM
Man, 50 comments read. I'm a little behind..
Watermarking site -> http://www.digimarc.com/solutions/default.asp
It's been a while since I checked out their site. It's a little diffrent from the last time. But this site is where you would register a watermark, well you get like alot of uses depending on which one you buy. You would use your paint program, add the digital watermark, and it logs it with this site. From there, you can track the use of the image anywhere on the web. If somebody posts it, it will find it. It's pretty cool if you have the money to do your images and if your planning on doing alot of images. I was looking into it a while ago for my stuff. I also found a way with creating a layer in the paint program and making it almost so faint that you can't see it and post the info on your pic that way. But that's mostly used for photos. Well, this is what I know of so far.
Watermarking site -> http://www.digimarc.com/solutions/default.asp
It's been a while since I checked out their site. It's a little diffrent from the last time. But this site is where you would register a watermark, well you get like alot of uses depending on which one you buy. You would use your paint program, add the digital watermark, and it logs it with this site. From there, you can track the use of the image anywhere on the web. If somebody posts it, it will find it. It's pretty cool if you have the money to do your images and if your planning on doing alot of images. I was looking into it a while ago for my stuff. I also found a way with creating a layer in the paint program and making it almost so faint that you can't see it and post the info on your pic that way. But that's mostly used for photos. Well, this is what I know of so far.
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #52 Thursday, March 6, 2003 5:36 AM
Reply #52 Thursday, March 6, 2003 5:36 AM
No matter what you do anything published on the net is going to be subject to theft. If you can't deal with that then stay offline! What we can do is use the power of the community against offenders at every opportunity. We've seen already in many cases an e-mail from Jafo has sorted problems. What we can do as a community is seek out perpetrators ourselves and bring our weight to bear on them. Some people are always going to ignore the rights of others, that's the way the world is, but given enough pressure from us they will eventually buckle.
Remember, rippers are sad people with no talent of their own. That's why they steal the work of others. There is nothing worse for such people as to be publicly exposed for what they are - cheats and thieves.
Remember, rippers are sad people with no talent of their own. That's why they steal the work of others. There is nothing worse for such people as to be publicly exposed for what they are - cheats and thieves.
da_zman20
Reply #55 Friday, March 7, 2003 5:24 AM
Reply #55 Friday, March 7, 2003 5:24 AM
yes... I agree with fuzzy... 100% also I like the idea of going into the message boards and making mention of the problem... seeing if we can get anything done there.... I may check th message boards tomorrow... but at the moment I am slightly inebriate... so we will find out tomorrow exactly what I can do
I may check th message boards tomorrow... but at the moment I am slightly inebriate... so we will find out tomorrow exactly what I can do
bakerstreet
Reply #56 Friday, March 7, 2003 8:29 AM
Reply #56 Friday, March 7, 2003 8:29 AM
I think one has to separate concepts of material, shape, etc., from what we consider capable of being 'ripped'. Right now, if i went back and re-did a couple of my older skins, i would doubtlessly be accused of ripping newer stuff. I have an old skin that looks a lot like a site theme here. There is skin at devart right now that looks like about 3 of my old ones put together. How will I fare if i ever start skinning again and bring them back?
In order for our rights to be taken seriously, we have to stop the 'lynch-mob-interruptus' that happens from time to time. When you go to the store, you see a lot of stereos that look alike. You see a lot of cameras, blenders, firearms or office supplies that share the same material, functionality, or even style.
We have to remember that not everything we make can be claimed as 'ours'. You can't copyright or an idea, or a common material like rubber, wood, or steel (though their production might be patentable). You really can't copyright a 'style', or design trends like Art Deco, Art Nouveau, Bauhaus, or Rococo would never have existed as concepts. In order for people like Frank Lloyd Wright and Walter Gropius to have been influential someone had to be influenced by them and emulate them in some way.
In short, to make people take 'protecting your rights' seriously, you have to make certain the rights you are protecting are valid. Someone, sometime, is gonna have to sue someone else. It has to happen eventually. Let's just not forget that 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery' and people who steal your graphics should get the chair
In order for our rights to be taken seriously, we have to stop the 'lynch-mob-interruptus' that happens from time to time. When you go to the store, you see a lot of stereos that look alike. You see a lot of cameras, blenders, firearms or office supplies that share the same material, functionality, or even style.
We have to remember that not everything we make can be claimed as 'ours'. You can't copyright or an idea, or a common material like rubber, wood, or steel (though their production might be patentable). You really can't copyright a 'style', or design trends like Art Deco, Art Nouveau, Bauhaus, or Rococo would never have existed as concepts. In order for people like Frank Lloyd Wright and Walter Gropius to have been influential someone had to be influenced by them and emulate them in some way.
In short, to make people take 'protecting your rights' seriously, you have to make certain the rights you are protecting are valid. Someone, sometime, is gonna have to sue someone else. It has to happen eventually. Let's just not forget that 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery' and people who steal your graphics should get the chair
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Reply #41 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:39 AM
I don't want to sound like a complete killjoy though. I understand that people want to show off when they've found an attractive look for their desktop, and that in many cases those grabs are good advertising for the particular skin. So there's never going to be a way to please all the people.