Rips - A discussion
Tuesday, March 4, 2003 by grayhaze | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Over recent months, I have noticed an alarming rise in copyright theft amongst the skinning community. It only takes a quick look through this very message board to find numerous reports of unauthorised modification and redistribution of WindowBlinds skins, icons and wallpapers.
It's really encouraging to see that skinning is becoming an everyday part of computer use and, as Frogboy tells us time and time again, skinning is constantly on the rise. It seems however that this public exposure has a downside. As more people discover skinning, so the 'ripping' trend continues to grow.
I have to admit that a large factor in my decision to stop skinning was the fact that I had little or no control over the use of my work once it had been released to the public. I got tired of finding threads on various boards around the net where people were simultaniously bad-mouthing me while ripping my skins and passing them off as their own. I'm sure I'm not alone.
So what can we as skinners do about copyright theft? There has to come a point when we can no longer chase those who steal our work, as the situation grows beyond our capacity to monitor it. It's obvious that much of the problem stems from a lack of education and information on the subject, as it's a commonly held misconception that anything you find on the Internet is free to use as you wish. We obviously need to find a way to spread the message that copyright theft is a crime. It's common sense that stealing physical property is theft, so why not digital property?
Is there any way for us to actively protect our work? Digital watermarking goes some way toward settling disputes over ownership, but such techniques hardly lend themselves to skins which often contain large numbers of tiny images.
I'd like to hear any ideas you have on the issue, and perhaps we can start to find a way out of this mess before it truly gets out of hand.
It's really encouraging to see that skinning is becoming an everyday part of computer use and, as Frogboy tells us time and time again, skinning is constantly on the rise. It seems however that this public exposure has a downside. As more people discover skinning, so the 'ripping' trend continues to grow.
I have to admit that a large factor in my decision to stop skinning was the fact that I had little or no control over the use of my work once it had been released to the public. I got tired of finding threads on various boards around the net where people were simultaniously bad-mouthing me while ripping my skins and passing them off as their own. I'm sure I'm not alone.
So what can we as skinners do about copyright theft? There has to come a point when we can no longer chase those who steal our work, as the situation grows beyond our capacity to monitor it. It's obvious that much of the problem stems from a lack of education and information on the subject, as it's a commonly held misconception that anything you find on the Internet is free to use as you wish. We obviously need to find a way to spread the message that copyright theft is a crime. It's common sense that stealing physical property is theft, so why not digital property?
Is there any way for us to actively protect our work? Digital watermarking goes some way toward settling disputes over ownership, but such techniques hardly lend themselves to skins which often contain large numbers of tiny images.
I'd like to hear any ideas you have on the issue, and perhaps we can start to find a way out of this mess before it truly gets out of hand.
 |
|
Page 2 of 3 | |
|
|---|
IPlural
Reply #22 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 5:10 AM
Reply #22 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 5:10 AM
@shu, that is exactly a part of what ripping is...
theft...
Skins and such are bad enough, but digital photography, man, anyone making or attempting to make a living with that on the web has some serious need of controlling distrabution of work for sure....
As DavidK states, it is extreamly expensive when you work with a registration service to register your watermark and work...
Maybe if some company deeply involved could come up with a value added feature to subscrupyion membership which a person could purchase as an addon, this could be addressed at least, for those of WinC? hint hint , wink wink
maybe if they had an addiliation program? where numbers registed lower the over all provce for everyone under a package plan...
theft...
Skins and such are bad enough, but digital photography, man, anyone making or attempting to make a living with that on the web has some serious need of controlling distrabution of work for sure....
As DavidK states, it is extreamly expensive when you work with a registration service to register your watermark and work...
Maybe if some company deeply involved could come up with a value added feature to subscrupyion membership which a person could purchase as an addon, this could be addressed at least, for those of WinC? hint hint , wink wink
maybe if they had an addiliation program? where numbers registed lower the over all provce for everyone under a package plan...
IPlural
Reply #23 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 5:11 AM
Reply #23 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 5:11 AM
affiliation typing in bed in the dark hasn'f seemed to improve my typing
typing in bed in the dark hasn'f seemed to improve my typing
@shu
Reply #24 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 5:31 AM
Maybe the hint will be taken IPlural.
But what action can one take against rippers? Like I have this wall https://www.wincustomize.com/skins.asp?library=8&SkinID=5905 uploaded at WC. And just a month back, I saw it at a guy's PC (we have a common friend). It has my name and everything but I didn't send it to him, and neither did my friend. I asked him if he had got this from WC, and he replied in the -ve. He showed me a CD (u know the kind that come with computer magazines) which had that wall.
I am all for free art, but atleast I should've been informed...
Reply #24 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 5:31 AM
Maybe the hint will be taken IPlural.
But what action can one take against rippers? Like I have this wall https://www.wincustomize.com/skins.asp?library=8&SkinID=5905 uploaded at WC. And just a month back, I saw it at a guy's PC (we have a common friend). It has my name and everything but I didn't send it to him, and neither did my friend. I asked him if he had got this from WC, and he replied in the -ve. He showed me a CD (u know the kind that come with computer magazines) which had that wall.
I am all for free art, but atleast I should've been informed...
IPlural
Reply #25 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 5:44 AM
Reply #25 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 5:44 AM
well, that would depend really. as a single person, you are pretty limited, though here at WinC they do take an active part in helping you out as they do throughout the skining community at large. There could be a purge I would guess, where a number of sites and authors band together one month a year and work on cleaning up as much of it as they can find on the net, power in numbers kind of thing, maybe?
@shu
Reply #26 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 5:59 AM
Reply #26 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 5:59 AM
Maybe, cause the power of many is definitely greater than the power of one. But I still doubt that it would amount to anything..
Did ya check out the other thread by Weaksid? If SD can't protect its own suites from being ripped, do single entities like us have any hope?
Did ya check out the other thread by Weaksid? If SD can't protect its own suites from being ripped, do single entities like us have any hope?
IPlural
Reply #27 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 6:14 AM
Reply #27 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 6:14 AM
sure, though it takes time and control on your part...
the art of communication
That is where psychology, social norms and personal abnormalities of personality comes into play
example: If a person is breaking the rules by posting skins for download on a site without the correct permission, maybe pointing out the facts and requesting that they remove the skins and then seek permission, would in fact open their site up to even more quality skins and such and also a means of communication with the authors.
Would probably be more productive than an email of 500 emails demanding cease the action, or else. Then you are left with the person thinking "Or else what? hahahahaha" so you end up missing your chance from the start in a positive solution to the situation.
Of course it is a bit different when someone is stealing skins and then selling them as if they own them in a commercial package such as the Delphi add on site is doing.
With them I would contact them, their ISP/Hosting service, Online sales provider and Delphi itself... Either they are not legally allowed to make use of that registered trade mark "Delphi" or they broke their contract for that use by stealing and selling stolen products while doing so with the impression of Delphi's support...
the art of communication
That is where psychology, social norms and personal abnormalities of personality comes into play
example: If a person is breaking the rules by posting skins for download on a site without the correct permission, maybe pointing out the facts and requesting that they remove the skins and then seek permission, would in fact open their site up to even more quality skins and such and also a means of communication with the authors.
Would probably be more productive than an email of 500 emails demanding cease the action, or else. Then you are left with the person thinking "Or else what? hahahahaha" so you end up missing your chance from the start in a positive solution to the situation.
Of course it is a bit different when someone is stealing skins and then selling them as if they own them in a commercial package such as the Delphi add on site is doing.
With them I would contact them, their ISP/Hosting service, Online sales provider and Delphi itself... Either they are not legally allowed to make use of that registered trade mark "Delphi" or they broke their contract for that use by stealing and selling stolen products while doing so with the impression of Delphi's support...
Jafo
Reply #28 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 6:25 AM
Reply #28 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 6:25 AM
I gotta be up at 5.00 am for a full day at the Grand Prix...so can't spend a lot of time on this thread/topic...but it is the responsibility of each and EVERY skinner/artist involved in our 'craft' to do all they can to help locate and end this occurence.
Any single thing you can do is just one little GOOD step towards combatting it.
Be vigilant and respond....that's all....
Any single thing you can do is just one little GOOD step towards combatting it.
Be vigilant and respond....that's all....
UBoB
Reply #30 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 6:36 AM
Reply #30 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 6:36 AM
If it ever happens to me I promise to stamp my feet, jump up and down and then pout for a while.....that outta fix 'em. 
@shu
Reply #31 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 7:10 AM
Reply #31 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 7:10 AM
Lucky ***!!! I wish I was at the Grand Prix (I am assuming here that you are talking about the F1 roadshow, Jafo)
I wish I was at the Grand Prix (I am assuming here that you are talking about the F1 roadshow, Jafo)
vizo
Reply #32 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 7:16 AM
Reply #32 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 7:16 AM
Costs aside, now is probably a good a time as any to stop ripping what with he DMCA being such a popular vehicle for companies/organizations to stop anyone they believe is trampling on their rights. You have the record industry going after napster, kazaa, etc. and I read the other day Lexmark is using the DMCA to try to stop 3rd party ink cartridge makers from making ink carts for their printers. The courts right now are taking a pretty lenient view on the DMCA.
Theft is theft. It's funny that it takes an 'act' to spur a lot of the lawsuits going on right now.
Theft is theft. It's funny that it takes an 'act' to spur a lot of the lawsuits going on right now.
moshi
Reply #33 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 8:01 AM
Reply #33 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 8:01 AM
as long as OS ripping is considered ok it will be pretty hard to explain your points to somebody who is unbiased and not part of our/your scene.
there is even an OS rip (of a very well known skinner) that has the JPEG artifacts of the screenshot it was cutted and pasted from in the caption buttons.
now when you see an other rip of this OS all you cry and say it´s a rip. "this is ...... by ....... !!!"
i still wonder how this skinner can have any copyright on a design that was done by others. she can claim a copyright on the UIS file, but that is all in my eyes.
there is even an OS rip (of a very well known skinner) that has the JPEG artifacts of the screenshot it was cutted and pasted from in the caption buttons.
now when you see an other rip of this OS all you cry and say it´s a rip. "this is ...... by ....... !!!"
i still wonder how this skinner can have any copyright on a design that was done by others. she can claim a copyright on the UIS file, but that is all in my eyes.
c242
Reply #34 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 8:24 AM
Reply #34 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 8:24 AM
Good point, moshi. Reminds me of the joke I made when releasing the Sountox suite : 'No upcoming OS harmed with this release.' 
IPlural
Reply #35 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 8:31 AM
Reply #35 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 8:31 AM
I think it is more that the author holds copyright on the graphics they produce and any modification of those specific graphics or misuse is a breach of copyright...
unless as with Apple or Microsoft, if you produce anything within a specific are of copyright material they hold, they assume ownership of the copyright, I think?
have to read up on that and see, now it will niggle around between my ears if I don't
unless as with Apple or Microsoft, if you produce anything within a specific are of copyright material they hold, they assume ownership of the copyright, I think?
have to read up on that and see, now it will niggle around between my ears if I don't
grayhaze
Reply #36 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:05 AM
Reply #36 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:05 AM
Here are just a few points based on what's been said so far.
Digital watermarking doesn't have to cost more than the one-off fee for a watermarking application or plugin. It's true that there are companies who maintain a database of watermarks created with their technology, and demand a fee for this service, but there are also other solutions which simply encode the information into the image and leave it at that. It's then your responsibility to keep a copy of the original image together with the watermarked one for any disputes that may arise.
Simply burning your files to a CD doesn't ensure that you're protected. It's not hard to change the system time and date on your machine to three years previous before burning the CD.
A much better and very inexpensive way of protecting your copyrights would be to post that CD to yourself through the regular postal service of your country. The package will then arrive at your doorstep with a postmarked date which will provide firm legal evidence in the case of the dispute. Just don't open it when it arrives!
It's also worth remembering that these days copyright is implied the moment you create any art, be it physical or digital. Gone are the days when you had to pay to register each and every work of art to protect your intellectual property. It's not even necessary to mark the image anywhere with a copyright notice, although this makes your ownership more obvious to any potential thief.
On the issue of encrypting skins to prevent ripping, there's one important thing that you need to remember - the PrtScn button. It's ridiculously easy for any ripper to simply apply the skin to their system/application and then take a screen grab. In many ways this actually makes it easier for a ripper to create a 'port' than sifting through the individual bitmaps that make up the original skin. All they need to do is cut up the image into whatever form serves their needs.
That's why it's almost impossible to prevent a determined ripper from stealing your work. I say 'almost' because I'm still hopeful that some ingenious developer out there will be able to find a way to stop even this from happening. Is there a way to simply stop the skin graphics from showing up in a screen grab?
Lastly, a couple of you were discussing OS rips and the fact that their existence damages any chance of claiming ownership on original works. I have to say that I disapprove of OS rips completely. I actually see little point in them, aside from appealing to those people who aren't aware that anything different exists.
For a long time I think new WindowBlinds users thought the purpose of the application was to make their desktop look like OSX or Windows XP without actually buying the OS itself. In y opinion, the whole point of skinning is to create something better than what's already available.
I think that if there were to be that one groundbreaking lawsuit that we all seem to need so desperately, it should come from the likes of Apple or Microsoft. Apple in particular are well known for protecting their intellectual property, and their reach is global. All it would take is for one high-profile case from a well known company, and I think we would be on our way to that education that's needed so much.
Speaking of which, I agree with the 'copyright disclaimer on every page of the site' idea too. It just makes sense.
Digital watermarking doesn't have to cost more than the one-off fee for a watermarking application or plugin. It's true that there are companies who maintain a database of watermarks created with their technology, and demand a fee for this service, but there are also other solutions which simply encode the information into the image and leave it at that. It's then your responsibility to keep a copy of the original image together with the watermarked one for any disputes that may arise.
Simply burning your files to a CD doesn't ensure that you're protected. It's not hard to change the system time and date on your machine to three years previous before burning the CD.
A much better and very inexpensive way of protecting your copyrights would be to post that CD to yourself through the regular postal service of your country. The package will then arrive at your doorstep with a postmarked date which will provide firm legal evidence in the case of the dispute. Just don't open it when it arrives!
It's also worth remembering that these days copyright is implied the moment you create any art, be it physical or digital. Gone are the days when you had to pay to register each and every work of art to protect your intellectual property. It's not even necessary to mark the image anywhere with a copyright notice, although this makes your ownership more obvious to any potential thief.
On the issue of encrypting skins to prevent ripping, there's one important thing that you need to remember - the PrtScn button. It's ridiculously easy for any ripper to simply apply the skin to their system/application and then take a screen grab. In many ways this actually makes it easier for a ripper to create a 'port' than sifting through the individual bitmaps that make up the original skin. All they need to do is cut up the image into whatever form serves their needs.
That's why it's almost impossible to prevent a determined ripper from stealing your work. I say 'almost' because I'm still hopeful that some ingenious developer out there will be able to find a way to stop even this from happening. Is there a way to simply stop the skin graphics from showing up in a screen grab?
Lastly, a couple of you were discussing OS rips and the fact that their existence damages any chance of claiming ownership on original works. I have to say that I disapprove of OS rips completely. I actually see little point in them, aside from appealing to those people who aren't aware that anything different exists.
For a long time I think new WindowBlinds users thought the purpose of the application was to make their desktop look like OSX or Windows XP without actually buying the OS itself. In y opinion, the whole point of skinning is to create something better than what's already available.
I think that if there were to be that one groundbreaking lawsuit that we all seem to need so desperately, it should come from the likes of Apple or Microsoft. Apple in particular are well known for protecting their intellectual property, and their reach is global. All it would take is for one high-profile case from a well known company, and I think we would be on our way to that education that's needed so much.
Speaking of which, I agree with the 'copyright disclaimer on every page of the site' idea too. It just makes sense.
grayhaze
Reply #37 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:07 AM
Reply #37 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:07 AM
Once I get going, I really say a lot! 
I even give IPlural a run for his money...
I even give IPlural a run for his money...
@shu
Reply #38 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:16 AM
Reply #38 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:16 AM
grayhaze, there are methods to hide .txt files inside .JPG's (or is that .BMPs?). Can that work?
paxx
Reply #39 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:30 AM
Reply #39 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:30 AM
In the particular case of Windowblinds, it is now possible to have a pop up text displayed when a skin is applied. If skinners used that option, then the "ignorance" factor could be eliminated. Rips of the said skin are then absolutely deliberate.
grayhaze
Reply #40 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:35 AM
Reply #40 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:35 AM
That's basically what digital watermarking does @shu. It hides text containing the author name and contact details into an image either visually through an imperceptible 'noise' or through the use of extended tags on certain image formats.
So the answer to your question is yes, it can work. If you keep a copy of the original image together with a copy of the image after it has been 'watermarked', then you're at least safeguarding yourself should a dispute over ownership arise. However, what we really need is a way to prevent the situation from ever going that far in the first place.
So the answer to your question is yes, it can work. If you keep a copy of the original image together with a copy of the image after it has been 'watermarked', then you're at least safeguarding yourself should a dispute over ownership arise. However, what we really need is a way to prevent the situation from ever going that far in the first place.
Please login to comment and/or vote for this skin.
Welcome Guest! Please take the time to register with us.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
- Richer content, access to many features that are disabled for guests like commenting on the forums and downloading skins.
- Access to a great community, with a massive database of many, many areas of interest.
- Access to contests & subscription offers like exclusive emails.
- It's simple, and FREE!
|
|
Page 2 of 3 | |
|
|---|
Reply #21 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 5:05 AM
When your computer boots up the MPC server/service loads. connects to SD checks against your configured personal installation/registration (local) against SD's registered owners database and if it comes back incorrect it refuses to load and you are told to call support or email them. Pirate is stuck and can not use products, or open skins to get the graphics out...
Watermarking software is an option on the graphics level, you could pay for the service, but do not really have to. Watermark you artwork and then back up copy's to your CD-RW, both marked and unmarked, the date stamp will be applied to the burned CD files and can not be changed so it is solid proof of creation date. One without mark same date and minutes apart from the one with mark on CD would be a good record of ownership....
Kind of like this computer chip I had put into Boomer for proof of ownership. If he ever gets loose and anyone attempts to claim him. All that needs be done to prove he is mine is to pass a scanner over his neck and all of his and my personal information pops up on the monitor. neat:)
as long as it stays for use with ONLY animals
use of the (tm) and (c) for un registered marks is sufficient, but you have to have indisputable proof, which the cd method would pretty much solve for you...
just some thoughts of possibilities....
when I get up later Ill go ahead and post a series of links to some solid watermark software that does not cost an arm and a leg and could be used in such a process...