Coordinated Skinning Efforts
Wednesday, January 22, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
One general concept we've been playing around with is one that Green Reaper came up with awhile back. The idea is that people could submit skins and allow others to submit additional pieces to those skins and themes.
Example:
Someone uploads a WindowBlinds skin but it doesn't support some of the new WB4 features like shellstyles and such.
So another user could submit an addition to it that just has those features.
Then usres could choose to download either the main skin alone or the skin entotal.
Now, implementing something like this wouldn't be trivial but we were interested in hearing ideas on how such a system could be implemented that provided a balance to protect skin authors while not making it so difficult to do that no one would actually make use of such a feature.
Example:
Someone uploads a WindowBlinds skin but it doesn't support some of the new WB4 features like shellstyles and such.
So another user could submit an addition to it that just has those features.
Then usres could choose to download either the main skin alone or the skin entotal.
Now, implementing something like this wouldn't be trivial but we were interested in hearing ideas on how such a system could be implemented that provided a balance to protect skin authors while not making it so difficult to do that no one would actually make use of such a feature.
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MarkMcQ
Reply #2 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 12:41 PM
Reply #2 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 12:41 PM
I'd say have an option that lets the author check off a box which says something like 'open permissions to update', or words to that effect. When that skin is loaded up using Windowblinds, that status will be displayed somewhere. On maybe the display properties window or in the WBConfig dialog.
The only problem with this system is, coming from my own point of view, that for me, I'd be happy to allow someone to update a skin to more recent specs, *provided* they're at least somewhat proficient in graphics. I know I'd rather not bust my ass making a skin I love, to have someone come along and add bits to it that are would bring the tone of the skin down, or to be blunt, are just plain awful, and badly made.
The only problem with this system is, coming from my own point of view, that for me, I'd be happy to allow someone to update a skin to more recent specs, *provided* they're at least somewhat proficient in graphics. I know I'd rather not bust my ass making a skin I love, to have someone come along and add bits to it that are would bring the tone of the skin down, or to be blunt, are just plain awful, and badly made.
da_zman20
Reply #3 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 2:28 PM
Reply #3 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 2:28 PM
exactly hippy you get it 
maybe the author should have to approve the updates... that would be an idea.. ome up with a way for him to approve them... and then he would have say in weather the updates slide... he could check them out before any one else does...
maybe the author should have to approve the updates... that would be an idea.. ome up with a way for him to approve them... and then he would have say in weather the updates slide... he could check them out before any one else does... 
Jafo
Reply #4 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 4:37 PM
Reply #4 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 4:37 PM
As lng as there is a strict 'collaborated effort credit' notice odorning each skin and/or segment, there'd be no dramas.
Original author would really have to give some sort of endorsement for any mods...
Original author would really have to give some sort of endorsement for any mods...
Ande
Reply #5 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:16 PM
Reply #5 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:16 PM
Couldn't this be implemented now. The suggested change could be sent to the author for approval, and if approved, be included in an update with the apporpriate kudos.
Ande
Reply #6 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:39 PM
Reply #6 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:39 PM
Update to post 5. But the suggested change should be done by the Author. With the appropriate acknowledgements. That way the Author keeps total control over his/her creation. Also there would have to be strict guidelines over what could be changed and what couldn't. If an author did know how to include shellstyles and such, the author could be instructed. The author would then become more proficient. ie. of course if the author wishes to update personally, if not, post 5
ie. of course if the author wishes to update personally, if not, post 5
Ogre66
Reply #7 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 6:27 PM
Reply #7 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 6:27 PM
The problem I see with the author having to approve the changes is that some authors have "disappeared" but their skins are still here and getting more out of date everyday. A good example is Shawn Murdock's skins. I love them, but now they are very out of date. I would love to see them updated, however I believe the author is much too busy with life to do any skinning.
I agree the author should still be able to have final control of their skin and any updates/additions made to it. Somehow, though, I think we need to find a balance. Maybe a selection of {allow any updates}, {allow author approved updates}, {no updates}.
Implemention of author updates could be done with a simple moderation type setup where the author can view any submissions for their skins and approve/disapprove/ask for more info(fix ugly stuff)
As a side note, allowing updates *might* get more people interested in skinning since they can get their feet wet by doing some mods to existing skins and get comfortable with the format before going headlong in to a skin from the ground up.
Just my 2 cents worth
I agree the author should still be able to have final control of their skin and any updates/additions made to it. Somehow, though, I think we need to find a balance. Maybe a selection of {allow any updates}, {allow author approved updates}, {no updates}.
Implemention of author updates could be done with a simple moderation type setup where the author can view any submissions for their skins and approve/disapprove/ask for more info(fix ugly stuff)
As a side note, allowing updates *might* get more people interested in skinning since they can get their feet wet by doing some mods to existing skins and get comfortable with the format before going headlong in to a skin from the ground up.
Just my 2 cents worth
starone
Reply #8 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 7:37 PM
Reply #8 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 7:37 PM
Authors have certain styles and ways do doing things. You can look at a blind and know which author has done the work (lots of work too). It should definitely be left to the author's discretion if he wants his work tampered with. For personal use, of course, no problem, but uploading? Could get a little sticky since uploading on a site is automatically copyrighted. Also, it would be difficult for a different skinner to match the original presets, templates, colors, etc. that was originally used by the author. Not knowing all that is involved at present, I would have to vote no.
Angel_Wings
Reply #9 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 7:53 PM
Reply #9 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 7:53 PM
Hmm. Goodness knows I'm not a skinner (but I'd like to be one some day he-he).
All good and plausible points noted above BTW...
Me, myself and I was/were (
) thinking maybe there could be a 'check-box' choice for the actual ‘option’ to allow others to add/modify their skin etc. upon uploading of one’s work. That way…there would be an ‘a-okay’ icon next to that skin saying that the author allowed/authorized it to be added onto or modified etc. and if not there could be a “NO touchy this with a ten-foot pole” icon or some such thing showing that that skin is NOT allowed to be tampered with in any way. You could REALLY get specific and even have a checkbox for what you WILL and won’t allow as an author like if you want to inspect the stuff yourself first and what kind of stuff you mind or don’t mind being added to the suite etc. etc. etc.
Just my 2 cents.
Frogboy, I hope you’re over the flu.
Grr. I woke up with a cold. Achoo!
All good and plausible points noted above BTW...
Me, myself and I was/were (
) thinking maybe there could be a 'check-box' choice for the actual ‘option’ to allow others to add/modify their skin etc. upon uploading of one’s work. That way…there would be an ‘a-okay’ icon next to that skin saying that the author allowed/authorized it to be added onto or modified etc. and if not there could be a “NO touchy this with a ten-foot pole” icon or some such thing showing that that skin is NOT allowed to be tampered with in any way. You could REALLY get specific and even have a checkbox for what you WILL and won’t allow as an author like if you want to inspect the stuff yourself first and what kind of stuff you mind or don’t mind being added to the suite etc. etc. etc.Just my 2 cents.
Frogboy, I hope you’re over the flu.
Grr. I woke up with a cold. Achoo!
Jafo
Reply #10 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 7:56 PM
Reply #10 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 7:56 PM
This can only be achieved as an opt-in process, not an opt-out one.
In other words, if a skinner was unapproachable or lost in the annals of time then his work would NOT be available for this form of modification/addition.
That's bound to slow things down a bit, and be quite frustrating for others, but it is important that the agreements under-which skins were uploaded be honoured, and that was that they COULD NOT be modded without consent.
New submissions could easily be subject to some new conditions...no problem, but the existing ones would have to be re-consented-to, as it were...
In other words, if a skinner was unapproachable or lost in the annals of time then his work would NOT be available for this form of modification/addition.
That's bound to slow things down a bit, and be quite frustrating for others, but it is important that the agreements under-which skins were uploaded be honoured, and that was that they COULD NOT be modded without consent.
New submissions could easily be subject to some new conditions...no problem, but the existing ones would have to be re-consented-to, as it were...
Robohead
Reply #11 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 8:04 PM
Reply #11 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 8:04 PM
I agree with starone.
Changing or adding to a skin to fit your personal tastes is just that, 'personal'. Do it for yourself. I see no reason to upload it. A skin author may not want to add every feature known to mankind to his/her skin. That doesn't mean it's not complete. And also as Hippy mentioned, there is a quality issue to keep the skin on at least the same level it was on before the update.
Porting a skin to another app is entirely different. That's something that most skin authors don't mind (at least I don't think they do).
Changing or adding to a skin to fit your personal tastes is just that, 'personal'. Do it for yourself. I see no reason to upload it. A skin author may not want to add every feature known to mankind to his/her skin. That doesn't mean it's not complete. And also as Hippy mentioned, there is a quality issue to keep the skin on at least the same level it was on before the update.
Porting a skin to another app is entirely different. That's something that most skin authors don't mind (at least I don't think they do).
Jafo
Reply #12 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 8:58 PM
Reply #12 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 8:58 PM
Most DO mind...if they are not contacted first, and/or no credit is given...
Koasati
Reply #13 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:40 PM
Reply #13 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:40 PM
Exactly right Paul......... if you don't have permission from the author, it's a rip, plain and simple. Period!
Koasati
Reply #14 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:46 PM
Reply #14 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:46 PM
I am all for the add-on idea, but opposed to the idea of people uploading any additions, without receiving written approval from the author.
Frogboy
Reply #15 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:54 PM
Reply #15 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:54 PM
Ideally what you want is a system in which other people can add components to a skin.
THey wouldn't be updating your skin, they would be supplying new pieces -- patches that could tehn be put together on the fly.
So let's say Treetog creates a cool skin but it doesn't have a shellstyle.
I could create just the shellstyle and upload it.
A user could then download the whole thing as a single entity with the site or software putting the pieces together for them.
Similarly, you could have a skin where several people have uploaded additional widgets. In a theoretic case you could have someone upload a skin with just the title bar and borders. Another person makes the scrollbars. Anotehr person the shellstyle, another person the push buttons, and so on. A user then can come on and in a single click download the whole thing and have it together as a single skin.
With regards to permission there are two levels of permission:
1) If you use any of the "master skin"'s graphics then you would still need WRITTEN permission from the author.
2) Ideally it would be nice to have a checkbox that would allow people to update your skin with additional widgets. The skin author would have the rigth to come in and delete widgets they don't approve of (i.e. moderate).
3) Additionally, it would be cool if the Widgets section of WinCustomize could be integrated in software easier. That is, if users could submit widgets and then specify what skins in library X that they feel their skin would complement. Then users could, choose to include those widgets with their download an dhave the software put them together. This way, skin authors (like me) could add XP Start bars (for example) to older skins and put them in the widgets library.
This is all just brain storming stuff but the general idea is to make it easier for skin authors to coordinate their efforts as well as find a way for existing skins to be able to be given a second life. As a skin author, I'd like my skin to remain useful for a long while but I don't want to have to go back and update every last skin every time a new feature to WB is added, I'd happily allow others to do that. But in order for that to happen, the system needs to become much more systematic, automated, and just plain easier to do.
THey wouldn't be updating your skin, they would be supplying new pieces -- patches that could tehn be put together on the fly.
So let's say Treetog creates a cool skin but it doesn't have a shellstyle.
I could create just the shellstyle and upload it.
A user could then download the whole thing as a single entity with the site or software putting the pieces together for them.
Similarly, you could have a skin where several people have uploaded additional widgets. In a theoretic case you could have someone upload a skin with just the title bar and borders. Another person makes the scrollbars. Anotehr person the shellstyle, another person the push buttons, and so on. A user then can come on and in a single click download the whole thing and have it together as a single skin.
With regards to permission there are two levels of permission:
1) If you use any of the "master skin"'s graphics then you would still need WRITTEN permission from the author.
2) Ideally it would be nice to have a checkbox that would allow people to update your skin with additional widgets. The skin author would have the rigth to come in and delete widgets they don't approve of (i.e. moderate).
3) Additionally, it would be cool if the Widgets section of WinCustomize could be integrated in software easier. That is, if users could submit widgets and then specify what skins in library X that they feel their skin would complement. Then users could, choose to include those widgets with their download an dhave the software put them together. This way, skin authors (like me) could add XP Start bars (for example) to older skins and put them in the widgets library.
This is all just brain storming stuff but the general idea is to make it easier for skin authors to coordinate their efforts as well as find a way for existing skins to be able to be given a second life. As a skin author, I'd like my skin to remain useful for a long while but I don't want to have to go back and update every last skin every time a new feature to WB is added, I'd happily allow others to do that. But in order for that to happen, the system needs to become much more systematic, automated, and just plain easier to do.
Robohead
Reply #16 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:06 PM
Reply #16 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:06 PM
I guess I need to clarify. I never meant it was ok to upload a port 'without permission'. I wasn't saying rips are ok. What I meant most skin authors don't mind having their work ported to another app. Something that they maybe don't use, so therefore don't skin. It's nice to see somebody likes your work enough to want more apps with your theme. Permission is still a must.
On the other hand, changing your WB skin (or any skin you've already uploaded) is different in my opinion. You're taking a finished product and making changes they you deem neccessary. I know this is already done once in a while, and that's fine if the original author doesn't mind. But I wouldn't really care to have it encouraged on every WB skin.
But since it will no doubt be implemented anyway, at least have a check box like Hippy mentioned giving the author the right to say 'no thanks' beforehand.
On the other hand, changing your WB skin (or any skin you've already uploaded) is different in my opinion. You're taking a finished product and making changes they you deem neccessary. I know this is already done once in a while, and that's fine if the original author doesn't mind. But I wouldn't really care to have it encouraged on every WB skin.
But since it will no doubt be implemented anyway, at least have a check box like Hippy mentioned giving the author the right to say 'no thanks' beforehand.
Robohead
Reply #18 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:12 PM
Reply #18 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:12 PM
Ok, I just read Frogboy's last post after I posted and he explained a bit more in depth how the whole thing might work. But since most WB skins are fairly complete when they're uploaded, how about having a seperate 'Community WB' library where you can upload just parts of a WB skin as mentioned? Just a thought.
But since most WB skins are fairly complete when they're uploaded, how about having a seperate 'Community WB' library where you can upload just parts of a WB skin as mentioned? Just a thought.
mrbiotech
Reply #19 Thursday, January 23, 2003 2:21 AM
Reply #19 Thursday, January 23, 2003 2:21 AM
I'm kind of surprised that more people haven't submitted "Widgets" already, especially considering that WC has a section specifically for them.
werewolf
Reply #20 Thursday, January 23, 2003 10:38 AM
Reply #20 Thursday, January 23, 2003 10:38 AM
Frogboy - "3) Additionally, it would be cool if the Widgets section of WinCustomize could be integrated in software easier. That is, if users could submit widgets and then specify what skins in library X that they feel their skin would complement. Then users could, choose to include those widgets with their download an dhave the software put them together. This way, skin authors (like me) could add XP Start bars (for example) to older skins and put them in the widgets library."
I really like that idea.
I really like that idea.
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Reply #1 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 12:05 PM