Is it justified?
Monday, January 13, 2003 by @shu | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Is it justified? I mean the war against Iraq. Of course, the optimists may say, 'Look, it hasn't taken place as yet'. But it is clear to even the common observer that the Anglo-American governments are cranking up the war machine.
They are hell bent on taking unilateral action against a nation that is already destroyed by hunger and poverty, even after the UN weapons inspectors have found nothing. Doesn't this make their actions suspect?
Elsewhere, the N. government openly admits to having a nuclear weapons program, but no action is taken against them. The mere possibility of taking action too does not cross the mind of the very same leaders who threaten to blow Iraq into oblivion. Is it due to the fact that N. Korea possesses the capability to retaliate, or the fact that N. Korea does not have any oil reserves to quench the thirst of these oil guzzling, 'developed, first world' countries?
They are hell bent on taking unilateral action against a nation that is already destroyed by hunger and poverty, even after the UN weapons inspectors have found nothing. Doesn't this make their actions suspect?
Elsewhere, the N. government openly admits to having a nuclear weapons program, but no action is taken against them. The mere possibility of taking action too does not cross the mind of the very same leaders who threaten to blow Iraq into oblivion. Is it due to the fact that N. Korea possesses the capability to retaliate, or the fact that N. Korea does not have any oil reserves to quench the thirst of these oil guzzling, 'developed, first world' countries?
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@shu
Reply #22 Monday, January 13, 2003 11:20 PM
Reply #22 Monday, January 13, 2003 11:20 PM
Maybe, it does help the economy. But what it does more is to help strengthen the hold of a particular faction over the rest of the nation, the Royal Family of Saudi Arabia for instance. And if the people are so happy with the presence, why are most of the funds to the terrorists channeled from the oil-rich Gulf countries?
As far as UK is considered, the less said, the better. It acts like US's sister concern and is being run along the same lines.
And if these posts are inflammatory, I plead guilty as charged because I believe in the concept of freedom of speech protected by the American Law (if I am not wrong).
As far as UK is considered, the less said, the better. It acts like US's sister concern and is being run along the same lines.
And if these posts are inflammatory, I plead guilty as charged because I believe in the concept of freedom of speech protected by the American Law (if I am not wrong).
The Rated PG
Reply #23 Monday, January 13, 2003 11:46 PM
Reply #23 Monday, January 13, 2003 11:46 PM
@shu when you have worn a military uniform and walked through Kuwait City and Kabul Afghanistan with crowds of people pushing and shoving, just to shake your hand, and the only English words they know is "we love Americans" or have had Iraqi soldiers surrendering just tell you to not let them go back to Saddam with fear of being killed, begging for you to take them with you to the U.S., then you might be better informed about your perceptions of The US, British, Aussie, and other allied presence in countries. One on one with the people themselves. Not what you hear on CNN or other secondhand thirdhand sources, or personal opinions.
@shu
Reply #24 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:08 AM
Reply #24 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:08 AM
Weren't the Italians saying the same thing after WWII? And these were same people who were in the Fascist rallies. Do you really expect ordinary people to say 'We don't want you here' to their liberators (or conquerors depending on which side you are on). And everybody wants to go to the US. It has never had a fight on the mainland even though it has fought in all the wars. And the image of the US that the Hollywood movies project is the perception that the people in other countries have about it.
I admit that people suffered tremendous, unspeakable hardships under the Taliban, but do you think that the US presence has stopped the starvation deaths in that impoverished nation or that the US presence will stop the infighting between warlords in Afghanistan?
I admit that people suffered tremendous, unspeakable hardships under the Taliban, but do you think that the US presence has stopped the starvation deaths in that impoverished nation or that the US presence will stop the infighting between warlords in Afghanistan?
Frogboy
Reply #25 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:14 AM
Reply #25 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:14 AM
In short: No level of evidence matters to you. No matter what, the USA is evil.
I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to respond to you anymore because you're just a rabid anti-USA everything. As the UN relief missions whether the US action has helped. The Taliban was preventing UN food aid to reach many parts of Afghanistan for political reasons. Now food is able to be delivered anywhere.
I wasn't aware that the US has been in "all the wars". Nor was I aware that the War of 1812, Civil War (to name two) were fought apparently on some sort of alternative plain of existence.
I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to respond to you anymore because you're just a rabid anti-USA everything. As the UN relief missions whether the US action has helped. The Taliban was preventing UN food aid to reach many parts of Afghanistan for political reasons. Now food is able to be delivered anywhere.
I wasn't aware that the US has been in "all the wars". Nor was I aware that the War of 1812, Civil War (to name two) were fought apparently on some sort of alternative plain of existence.
@shu
Reply #26 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:28 AM
Reply #26 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:28 AM
It is not so, Frogboy. I admire the people of US who defend the right of all Americans, they are really a concerned lot. They do really care about other people, but their concern stops at Americans only. You talk about the UN food program, but doesn't that include all other nations such as France, Russia, Japan, etc. Even a country like India, where there is an immense divide between the haves and the have-nots, did its bit.
That is exactly what I am talking about, UNILATERALISM. The UN has sent its weapons inspectors and the decision of action against Iraq should be based on the UNSC decision. The US invokes UN charters as and when it likes, while blatantly ignoring its directives in many others.
And I was taking of all the wars after the 1940's. I apologise for not being specific, but hasn't the US, overtly or covertly, been a part of all of them? (And where the US has missed out, GB has stepped in to fill its shoes).
Don't you think that France, Russia have as many enemies?
That is exactly what I am talking about, UNILATERALISM. The UN has sent its weapons inspectors and the decision of action against Iraq should be based on the UNSC decision. The US invokes UN charters as and when it likes, while blatantly ignoring its directives in many others.
And I was taking of all the wars after the 1940's. I apologise for not being specific, but hasn't the US, overtly or covertly, been a part of all of them? (And where the US has missed out, GB has stepped in to fill its shoes).
Don't you think that France, Russia have as many enemies?
Frogboy
Reply #27 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:32 AM
Reply #27 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:32 AM
My last message on this topic here:
No, you simply have no idea what you are talking about. You are not just slightly off on many of your facts and histories but utterly wrong with regards to the facts and histories in questions.
It is like debating with someone who is convinced that the moon landings never took place.
No, you simply have no idea what you are talking about. You are not just slightly off on many of your facts and histories but utterly wrong with regards to the facts and histories in questions.
It is like debating with someone who is convinced that the moon landings never took place.
BoXXi
Reply #29 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:41 AM
Reply #29 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:41 AM
It's logic versus religion, freedom versus indoctrination. This thread is a classic example of why "Never the 'twain shall meet"
I hate to see these political disussions on a skin site.
I hate to see these political disussions on a skin site.
@shu
Reply #30 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:43 AM
Reply #30 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:43 AM
What you don't want to accept is the fact that if US-bashing or US-baiting exists, US itself is responsible for it to a great extent. If I am someone who is convinced that the moon-landings did not take place, then so be it. Atleast I question all that is being done in my name, I am concerned how other people percieve me. And I am someone who doesn't think that the a tournament made up of participating teams from two (or is it just one) nation(s) constitutes a 'World Series'.
@shu
Reply #31 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:53 AM
Reply #31 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:53 AM
Boxxi, I see what you are getting at.
I am not what you think I am, I do not belong to either side. Everything is not black and white. If u'd known me, u'd have seen me hating 'them' more than you do. But, I have been taught to think for myself, beyond the written word.
I was aggrieved by 911, I had an acquaintance in the Second Tower, but my heart bleeds equally for the innocent victims of the US war on Afghanistan. And I shudder to think what will happen if this is repeated in Iraq. Let them clean up their own mess, or let UNSC authorise action. Do not let the blood of innocent Iraqis on your hand for a few oil wells.
I am not what you think I am, I do not belong to either side. Everything is not black and white. If u'd known me, u'd have seen me hating 'them' more than you do. But, I have been taught to think for myself, beyond the written word.
I was aggrieved by 911, I had an acquaintance in the Second Tower, but my heart bleeds equally for the innocent victims of the US war on Afghanistan. And I shudder to think what will happen if this is repeated in Iraq. Let them clean up their own mess, or let UNSC authorise action. Do not let the blood of innocent Iraqis on your hand for a few oil wells.
Angel_Wings
Reply #32 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:56 AM
Reply #32 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:56 AM
@shu I grew up with an idealized vision of the USA...I never knew much about other cultures/countries until I was older and took the liberties of self-education in my own hands…
One of my most intense studies was of the holocaust…
War, death, destruction…it’s always going to be ugly, horrible and terrifying…but out of many wars there have been borne many freedoms and liberties to many people…
There are still primitive tribes in Africa and other continents where life and death are a constant tribal war and a struggle just to exist…
Are we better than those primitives? In many ways yes…because we communicate, we try to delineate peaceful talks between leaders and we try to establish fairness with peace talks etc. and even with our “BIG GUNS” we sure as heck don’t EVER want to “HAVE” to use them “EVER” because we KNOW BETTER. But give a 3rd world country a nuke…or a country/providence run by a dictator who can access one and you better duck and cover!
The USA is made up of 99.9% innocent citizens whom try to vote the best they can… Our leaders represent us but the difference between “US” and “THEM” is as a US citizen we DO have a choice… WE the PEOPLE speak with our vote… Some other less fortunate countries have no such rights… (Unless you call it a right to vote against your dictator if you don’t mind your head being lopped off for it).
Is the USA evil for being powerful and wealthy and strong? NO… If a country such as Iraq etc. had the same power the USA now…do you think they’d have diplomatic talks with the higher ups? Do you think they’d not force their ‘religion’ on people all over and not use their nukes as threats?
WHY is the USA so successful? Because we have FREEDOM…
I’ll probably get flamed for this but I don’t frickin’ care.
I’m sick of being called an “ugly American” just because we have does not mean we don’t care about the ‘have nots’ and doesn’t mean we want to fire off our weaponry at every given chance. Heck no! Nobody in their right mind wants to send their son/daughter off to fight a war if they can help it…except for the psycho wackos who want to sacrifice their children for some whacked out religious fairytale that was brainwashed into them since DAY ONE. What kind of choice is that?
Angel_Wings won't even go into how WOMEN and CHILDREN are treated in many of those countries! Talk about backasswards! >
One of my most intense studies was of the holocaust…
War, death, destruction…it’s always going to be ugly, horrible and terrifying…but out of many wars there have been borne many freedoms and liberties to many people…
There are still primitive tribes in Africa and other continents where life and death are a constant tribal war and a struggle just to exist…
Are we better than those primitives? In many ways yes…because we communicate, we try to delineate peaceful talks between leaders and we try to establish fairness with peace talks etc. and even with our “BIG GUNS” we sure as heck don’t EVER want to “HAVE” to use them “EVER” because we KNOW BETTER. But give a 3rd world country a nuke…or a country/providence run by a dictator who can access one and you better duck and cover!
The USA is made up of 99.9% innocent citizens whom try to vote the best they can… Our leaders represent us but the difference between “US” and “THEM” is as a US citizen we DO have a choice… WE the PEOPLE speak with our vote… Some other less fortunate countries have no such rights… (Unless you call it a right to vote against your dictator if you don’t mind your head being lopped off for it).
Is the USA evil for being powerful and wealthy and strong? NO… If a country such as Iraq etc. had the same power the USA now…do you think they’d have diplomatic talks with the higher ups? Do you think they’d not force their ‘religion’ on people all over and not use their nukes as threats?
WHY is the USA so successful? Because we have FREEDOM…
I’ll probably get flamed for this but I don’t frickin’ care.
I’m sick of being called an “ugly American” just because we have does not mean we don’t care about the ‘have nots’ and doesn’t mean we want to fire off our weaponry at every given chance. Heck no! Nobody in their right mind wants to send their son/daughter off to fight a war if they can help it…except for the psycho wackos who want to sacrifice their children for some whacked out religious fairytale that was brainwashed into them since DAY ONE. What kind of choice is that?
Angel_Wings won't even go into how WOMEN and CHILDREN are treated in many of those countries! Talk about backasswards! >
@shu
Reply #33 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 1:11 AM
Reply #33 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 1:11 AM
Dear Shmoopy, I belong to one of 'those' countries. We do not have deaths by gunfire every two minutes is it? We do not have as many rapes, with a population much, much higher than yours. Education situation is bad, but steadily improving (before the colonising of our nation, we even had priestesses, never heard of that in many of the enlightened nations). The economy was destroyed by constant invasion from the West and we are now a 'third world country'.
Sexual freedom in our country was supressed by 'Medieval Western Morality'. We have had the nuclear option for 20+ years, but we have declared a no first-use policy. We share our foodstocks with countries that are poorer than us, break bread with our enemies.
We did make some mistakes by meddling in Sri Lanka's affairs in the early eighties but after burning our fingers once, never repeated it.
I do not use much gas, oil, CFC's as much as countries with tenth our population, but have to suffer the brunt of the climatic changes due to pollution.
And we respond to our leaders' decisions in the most blatant way possible, voting them in or out of power. We question them and analyse each and everyone of their decisions.
We have around 20 religions in our countries, 32 languages and over a 150 dialects.
There are occassional hiccups but we carry on, thank you.
Sexual freedom in our country was supressed by 'Medieval Western Morality'. We have had the nuclear option for 20+ years, but we have declared a no first-use policy. We share our foodstocks with countries that are poorer than us, break bread with our enemies.
We did make some mistakes by meddling in Sri Lanka's affairs in the early eighties but after burning our fingers once, never repeated it.
I do not use much gas, oil, CFC's as much as countries with tenth our population, but have to suffer the brunt of the climatic changes due to pollution.
And we respond to our leaders' decisions in the most blatant way possible, voting them in or out of power. We question them and analyse each and everyone of their decisions.
We have around 20 religions in our countries, 32 languages and over a 150 dialects.
There are occassional hiccups but we carry on, thank you.
@shu
Reply #34 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 1:19 AM
Reply #34 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 1:19 AM
What you should understand that with power comes the burden of duties and decisions. I am not saying that nations is not allowed make mistakes. But they should have the maturity to learn from their mistakes. And excercise caution while using the powers at their disposal.
Angel_Wings
Reply #35 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 1:22 AM
Reply #35 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 1:22 AM
@shu, peace should ALWAYS be the first option...
ALWAYS...
I wish it were the ONLY option...
ALWAYS...
I wish it were the ONLY option...
Angel_Wings
Reply #36 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 1:29 AM
Reply #36 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 1:29 AM
Anyhoo...I dunno how much political impact any 'political' arguments have on a "Skinning/art" forum accept that I wish those kind of 'hot topics' were kept at a 'political' forum rather than here. 
If one wants peace...then why not be upstanding enough to try and keep it rather than stir the pot? You've only proven one thing to me...I am right in what I know...people like you almost NEVER waver from their own staid beliefs.
Peace to you nonetheless...
If one wants peace...then why not be upstanding enough to try and keep it rather than stir the pot? You've only proven one thing to me...I am right in what I know...people like you almost NEVER waver from their own staid beliefs.
Peace to you nonetheless...
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #37 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 1:55 AM
Reply #37 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 1:55 AM
FB: It is like debating with someone who is convinced that the moon landings never took place
Some people here have their heads up there
Some people here have their heads up there
Angel_Wings
Reply #38 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 2:00 AM
Reply #38 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 2:00 AM
Angel_Wings agrees with Fuzzy Wuzzy...
Sad, sad, sad...
...'BUTT' (
) true
Sad, sad, sad...
...'BUTT' (
) true
Snowman
Reply #39 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 2:52 AM
Reply #39 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 2:52 AM
Dunno what's wrong, but no matter how many times I vote, my vote won't "stick", as in I keep being able to vote or maybe it's only the "Unfortunately it needs to be done" option that works.....
But as long as nothings found (weapons, rockets etc etc) I cannot see a single reason to start any kinda military actions.
I'll keep it at that, won't stir up more shit
But as long as nothings found (weapons, rockets etc etc) I cannot see a single reason to start any kinda military actions.
I'll keep it at that, won't stir up more shit
Snowman
Reply #40 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 2:54 AM
Reply #40 Tuesday, January 14, 2003 2:54 AM
oh, btw just as a sidenote, I don't believe that Iraq should be left alone either. Someone gotta keep the sucker down!
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Reply #21 Monday, January 13, 2003 11:07 PM
We as netizens need to rise above this now mundane concept of 'nationalism' cause the whole human race is one.