Business Proposal for Experienced 'Skinners'
Sunday, January 5, 2003 by dave wurtz | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
My name is David Wurtz, Director of Ventures and Affairs of Liquid Silver Technologies, Inc. (liquid-silver.com)
My company and I are spawning a new business, collegechameleon.com , which involves customizing window's look and feel to represent college campuses. We are currently gathering developers for the software, and researching the best ways to carry out our plans.
If interested, please contact me at [email protected] and I will be sure to fill you in on the details.
All those who actively participate in the project will receive a share of the company and the profits it generates.
I look forward to hearing from all of you,
Sincere Regards,
David Wurtz
My company and I are spawning a new business, collegechameleon.com , which involves customizing window's look and feel to represent college campuses. We are currently gathering developers for the software, and researching the best ways to carry out our plans.
If interested, please contact me at [email protected] and I will be sure to fill you in on the details.
All those who actively participate in the project will receive a share of the company and the profits it generates.
I look forward to hearing from all of you,
Sincere Regards,
David Wurtz
dave wurtz
Reply #2 Sunday, January 5, 2003 11:26 PM
Reply #2 Sunday, January 5, 2003 11:26 PM
Hi Joetheblow,
I sent you an email at [email protected]. Hopefully, you'll receive it and respond, as it contains some more details on the venture.
Thank you for your interest. I look forward to hearing from you!
Regards,
David
I sent you an email at [email protected]. Hopefully, you'll receive it and respond, as it contains some more details on the venture.
Thank you for your interest. I look forward to hearing from you!
Regards,
David
Jafo
Reply #3 Monday, January 6, 2003 1:10 AM
Reply #3 Monday, January 6, 2003 1:10 AM
I think people getting involved with artistic creative input which results in the aesthetic 'success' of a site should be looking at a fee payment, rather than a speculative 'share' of a company or its proceeds.
If it's a 'business proposal' then appropriate business practise would be in order...
If it's a 'business proposal' then appropriate business practise would be in order...
dave wurtz
Reply #4 Monday, January 6, 2003 4:00 PM
Reply #4 Monday, January 6, 2003 4:00 PM
Jafo,
I'd like to make a point. The way the business sturcture of CollegeChameleon is laid out makes room for our skinners to make large amounts of money. The profit they make is a function of their skin's popularity; a microcosm of supply and demand.
Lets say MrJack creates a skin for Yale that sells of the shelves because it has super cool looks. Rather than receiving money upfront, one lump sum, the developer takes a slight risk, but sets himself up for large profits in the future; profits that may very well surpass and surpass again the one lump sum option.
Being a web developer myself, I know the uneasy feeling to profit share. But, being on the other side of things, I also know that profit sharing weeds out the disinterested, and ensures that each and every skin is going to be top notch (or it wont make the skinner money).
Finnally, I'd like to mention that funding this early on in a web venture is hard to come by.
I hope this email didn't offend you. I'm just trying to stick up for the "system" that we've chosen.
Regards,
David
I'd like to make a point. The way the business sturcture of CollegeChameleon is laid out makes room for our skinners to make large amounts of money. The profit they make is a function of their skin's popularity; a microcosm of supply and demand.
Lets say MrJack creates a skin for Yale that sells of the shelves because it has super cool looks. Rather than receiving money upfront, one lump sum, the developer takes a slight risk, but sets himself up for large profits in the future; profits that may very well surpass and surpass again the one lump sum option.
Being a web developer myself, I know the uneasy feeling to profit share. But, being on the other side of things, I also know that profit sharing weeds out the disinterested, and ensures that each and every skin is going to be top notch (or it wont make the skinner money).
Finnally, I'd like to mention that funding this early on in a web venture is hard to come by.
I hope this email didn't offend you. I'm just trying to stick up for the "system" that we've chosen.
Regards,
David
Styl-X Design
Reply #5 Monday, January 6, 2003 4:57 PM
Reply #5 Monday, January 6, 2003 4:57 PM
Hey, I am intrested in your offer, how ever, i am not THAT experienced.
look at my winamp, coolplayer, and cursor xp skins, and see for yourself.
(ok, meaby it could be worse.... or not...)
I've got about a half year experience with flash, and a year or some with skinning.
you can contact me at [email protected]
look at my winamp, coolplayer, and cursor xp skins, and see for yourself.
(ok, meaby it could be worse.... or not...)
I've got about a half year experience with flash, and a year or some with skinning.
you can contact me at [email protected]
dave wurtz
Reply #6 Monday, January 6, 2003 5:32 PM
Reply #6 Monday, January 6, 2003 5:32 PM
Hi there,
I sent you an email. Hope to hear from you and thanks for your interest.
David
I sent you an email. Hope to hear from you and thanks for your interest.
David
Jafo
Reply #7 Monday, January 6, 2003 6:17 PM
Reply #7 Monday, January 6, 2003 6:17 PM
dave wurtz...
When "funding this early on in a web venture is hard to come by" there is absolutely no proof or indication of the venture's potential for success.
Maybe it will make squillions, maybe it will be a dud.
However, a skinner providing his time and effort is in the lap of the gods as to whether he will be reasonably compensated.
'Speculative slave-labour', or 'money for nothing and your chicks for free' may perhaps be a fair indication of this business model.
An Architect does not base his fee on the potential rental tenancy rate of his project.
After being in the commercial designing 'industry' for 30 years, I tend not to see things through rose-coloured glasses...
When "funding this early on in a web venture is hard to come by" there is absolutely no proof or indication of the venture's potential for success.
Maybe it will make squillions, maybe it will be a dud.
However, a skinner providing his time and effort is in the lap of the gods as to whether he will be reasonably compensated.
'Speculative slave-labour', or 'money for nothing and your chicks for free' may perhaps be a fair indication of this business model.
An Architect does not base his fee on the potential rental tenancy rate of his project.
After being in the commercial designing 'industry' for 30 years, I tend not to see things through rose-coloured glasses...
Jafo
Reply #8 Monday, January 6, 2003 6:31 PM
Reply #8 Monday, January 6, 2003 6:31 PM
Two people in this contract...you, the 'company principal' and me, 'the skinner'.
I work on your project for little or no recompense, gambling on your business acumen to let me receive at least what my input is worth.
You pay next to nothing and receive all my input but suffer no significant loss if your acumen 'sucks'...your venture, your failure...just move on.
Meanwhile, I have worked without compensation/payment.
Without guarantees of 'success', profit sharing is akin to a scam.
I wouldn't do it, but then I don't go to Casinos or gamble on nags at a racetrack either...
I work on your project for little or no recompense, gambling on your business acumen to let me receive at least what my input is worth.
You pay next to nothing and receive all my input but suffer no significant loss if your acumen 'sucks'...your venture, your failure...just move on.
Meanwhile, I have worked without compensation/payment.
Without guarantees of 'success', profit sharing is akin to a scam.
I wouldn't do it, but then I don't go to Casinos or gamble on nags at a racetrack either...
dave wurtz
Reply #9 Monday, January 6, 2003 6:54 PM
Reply #9 Monday, January 6, 2003 6:54 PM
Jafo,
Your points are good ones. But we all have our ways and I guess this 'way' isn't for you.
)
If we decide to do things differently with CollegeChameleon.com, with corporate sponsoring, etc... you'll be the first one informed.
David
Your points are good ones. But we all have our ways and I guess this 'way' isn't for you.
)If we decide to do things differently with CollegeChameleon.com, with corporate sponsoring, etc... you'll be the first one informed.
David
Jafo
Reply #10 Monday, January 6, 2003 7:06 PM
Reply #10 Monday, January 6, 2003 7:06 PM
Dave...I'm sure you'll get someone on-board...but I'm just shedding a bit of 'light' for those who may be younger and more naive....
The perfect counterpoint is a close friend of mine [Second Unit Director on the Aus/Canadian 'Saddle Club'] was offered 'shares' in Mad Max [Road Warrior in the US] as Continuity...the budget was US about 150,000 so they weren't going to be able to pay much. She declined.
If she hadn't, her 'cut' would be approx AUS $3,000,000.....sad, but true....
Of course, this RARELY happens...
The perfect counterpoint is a close friend of mine [Second Unit Director on the Aus/Canadian 'Saddle Club'] was offered 'shares' in Mad Max [Road Warrior in the US] as Continuity...the budget was US about 150,000 so they weren't going to be able to pay much. She declined.
If she hadn't, her 'cut' would be approx AUS $3,000,000.....sad, but true....
Of course, this RARELY happens...
IPlural
Reply #12 Tuesday, January 7, 2003 3:34 PM
Reply #12 Tuesday, January 7, 2003 3:34 PM
Is there a non-compete and or conflict of intereset clause in the employment contract?
If so what is it?
If I learn something while in your employ and make use of that respective knowldge does this in fact mean that you either have a right to assume ownership of what I do on my own time, or have I in fact signed over this right to you?
This could be a very good thing and not questioning to poke holes in any possibilities. But people need to look things over until they understand each particular issue or possibility. Then they should speak with others to see if they might have missed something.
Take DOS for example...
Most know something of the history of DOS and the creation of Microsoft. I am not saying that is always a given, but taking on any venture with limited information and personally acceptable answers to question, is, well rather limiting ones understanding of where they stand precisely.
just my silly pov for what it is worth...
If so what is it?
If I learn something while in your employ and make use of that respective knowldge does this in fact mean that you either have a right to assume ownership of what I do on my own time, or have I in fact signed over this right to you?
This could be a very good thing and not questioning to poke holes in any possibilities. But people need to look things over until they understand each particular issue or possibility. Then they should speak with others to see if they might have missed something.
Take DOS for example...
Most know something of the history of DOS and the creation of Microsoft. I am not saying that is always a given, but taking on any venture with limited information and personally acceptable answers to question, is, well rather limiting ones understanding of where they stand precisely.
just my silly pov for what it is worth...
bakerstreet
Reply #13 Tuesday, January 7, 2003 4:12 PM
Reply #13 Tuesday, January 7, 2003 4:12 PM
There is an offer like this one floated here every month or so, and I have yet to see any produce any reasonable result.
I would suggest waiting until there is substantial information both on the project, the amount of labor, and the rights retained by the artists involved. "customizing window's look and feel to represent college campuses" could mean anything from desktop wallpaper to a full suite of themed skins and a shell replacement.
If they are only now hiring developers, there would be no way to know the time and difficulty involved in creating graphics for their vaporware, and no way to enter into a discussion on fair payment. Also, college mascots, logos, etc., are also trademarked material, so permission would have to be secured for skinners to use them in the first place. Without a license agreement with the University in question, no agreement could be made with the skinner on his or her rights to the work they are creating. Rights are kind of important... and stuff; or so my attorney tells me.
Back in the day I was hired to produce skins for 3 different 'endeavors' that never came to fruition and never bothered to pay for weeks of labor. I like to call this 'fishing for n00bs'. Let the skinner beware.
I would suggest waiting until there is substantial information both on the project, the amount of labor, and the rights retained by the artists involved. "customizing window's look and feel to represent college campuses" could mean anything from desktop wallpaper to a full suite of themed skins and a shell replacement.
If they are only now hiring developers, there would be no way to know the time and difficulty involved in creating graphics for their vaporware, and no way to enter into a discussion on fair payment. Also, college mascots, logos, etc., are also trademarked material, so permission would have to be secured for skinners to use them in the first place. Without a license agreement with the University in question, no agreement could be made with the skinner on his or her rights to the work they are creating. Rights are kind of important... and stuff; or so my attorney tells me.
Back in the day I was hired to produce skins for 3 different 'endeavors' that never came to fruition and never bothered to pay for weeks of labor. I like to call this 'fishing for n00bs'. Let the skinner beware.
joetheblow
Reply #14 Tuesday, January 7, 2003 5:48 PM
Reply #14 Tuesday, January 7, 2003 5:48 PM
Yes, I was wonderinf about the usage of schools images. It would be ok if it is under "fan art". There are some skins that are made for schools that are free to download but they are on skin sites or on a site of the person who made it, not a whole different type of site.
From what I gather this would be a skin site but only for schools. Any school I recon. Such a mass of school skins might be a problem with the schools. It might be important to let the school know and get permissions. Actually I think for a site like this the schools would want to be apart of it anyway.
We will see.
From what I gather this would be a skin site but only for schools. Any school I recon. Such a mass of school skins might be a problem with the schools. It might be important to let the school know and get permissions. Actually I think for a site like this the schools would want to be apart of it anyway.
We will see.
dave wurtz
Reply #15 Tuesday, January 7, 2003 7:16 PM
Reply #15 Tuesday, January 7, 2003 7:16 PM
Geeez. Tough crowd. I guess its good.
Bakerstreet: No offence, but none of the other ventures concern me and their success of failure does not effect collegechameleon at all. Lets leave them out of it. As for licensing agreements, we've already gained great interest in MIT, and were most likely about to gain a licensing agreement as well. I've alrady arranged to meet with their IT dept to make the skin. Not bad for a company thats "only now hiring developers"
joetheblow: as I mentioned above, MIT seemed very interested. I agree that some may be hesitant. But we don't need all colleges to be successful at this. Additionally, I was approached by StarDock. It seems CollegeChameleon.com is filling a niche and filling it well.
IPlural: That has not yet been worked out. But I thank you for bringing it to my attention.
Regards to All! Again, no offense to anyone; just staking my ground.
David
Bakerstreet: No offence, but none of the other ventures concern me and their success of failure does not effect collegechameleon at all. Lets leave them out of it. As for licensing agreements, we've already gained great interest in MIT, and were most likely about to gain a licensing agreement as well. I've alrady arranged to meet with their IT dept to make the skin. Not bad for a company thats "only now hiring developers"
joetheblow: as I mentioned above, MIT seemed very interested. I agree that some may be hesitant. But we don't need all colleges to be successful at this. Additionally, I was approached by StarDock. It seems CollegeChameleon.com is filling a niche and filling it well.
IPlural: That has not yet been worked out. But I thank you for bringing it to my attention.
Regards to All! Again, no offense to anyone; just staking my ground.
David
bakerstreet
Reply #16 Wednesday, January 8, 2003 2:25 PM
Reply #16 Wednesday, January 8, 2003 2:25 PM
My suggestion would be to stake your ground professionally, not on a messageboard.
joetheblow
Reply #17 Wednesday, January 8, 2003 10:29 PM
Reply #17 Wednesday, January 8, 2003 10:29 PM
cool. if everything works out, this school site could actually be fun to be apart of.
Oh and something like this usually gets a better reception as a news story. It might have gone smoother then the message board. I am not sure why it comes off wrong on the message board, but it does. Even well known businesses seem a little strange posting here.
just my 2 cents...
Oh and something like this usually gets a better reception as a news story. It might have gone smoother then the message board. I am not sure why it comes off wrong on the message board, but it does. Even well known businesses seem a little strange posting here.
just my 2 cents...
Jafo
Reply #18 Wednesday, January 8, 2003 11:38 PM
Reply #18 Wednesday, January 8, 2003 11:38 PM
Dave...we are a 'tough crowd' because we represent/constitute some of the 'oldest' [most experienced] members of the skinning community and have seen starry-eyed propositions many times before.
Experience makes the best educator...
Experience makes the best educator...
dave wurtz
Reply #19 Friday, January 10, 2003 12:00 AM
Reply #19 Friday, January 10, 2003 12:00 AM
Joe: I agree. There seems to be some kind of harsh community outlook to everything posted on any message board. It becomes a battle of the wits, and a competition for board 'status'. ;o) One gets used to it.
Jafo: I'm not doubting any of this skinning community's capabilities. I'm very impressed with the skins from this page. And I never realized what a market it was, until taking on this venture. I do appreciate all your comments, because it enables me to think deeply about the workings of the project.
Dave
Jafo: I'm not doubting any of this skinning community's capabilities. I'm very impressed with the skins from this page. And I never realized what a market it was, until taking on this venture. I do appreciate all your comments, because it enables me to think deeply about the workings of the project.
Dave
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Reply #1 Sunday, January 5, 2003 9:53 PM
Icons are cool, and wallpapers are a must (a really designed wallpaper, not some cheap-o stlye wall I usually see on the net that represents a company or artist)
Anyway, good luck on your venture.