Are the Non XP users doomed to eternal dull start menus and scrollbars??
Thursday, December 5, 2002 by NightShadowe | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Are we??? 
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exploreRPG3918
Reply #42 Friday, December 6, 2002 3:37 PM
Reply #42 Friday, December 6, 2002 3:37 PM
bakerstreet..
Here is an example of how a large image can be edited... I'm going to make a few assumptions to simplify my example.
Assume the image is a bitmap.
1 The image header is stored in the file and usually in RGB format. So you can calculate the number of horizontal bytes per scan line.
2 You can open the file read the header and create a virtual windows for reading the graphics data and displaying it on screen dynamically.
3 you Can write a routine to WRITE the image PAGE file back to the disk directly after it is editted on the screen.
And you can do this is UNDER 5MB of ram.
Unless you require something more, I don't see your point.
Here is an example of how a large image can be edited... I'm going to make a few assumptions to simplify my example.
Assume the image is a bitmap.
1 The image header is stored in the file and usually in RGB format. So you can calculate the number of horizontal bytes per scan line.
2 You can open the file read the header and create a virtual windows for reading the graphics data and displaying it on screen dynamically.
3 you Can write a routine to WRITE the image PAGE file back to the disk directly after it is editted on the screen.
And you can do this is UNDER 5MB of ram.
Unless you require something more, I don't see your point.
bakerstreet
Reply #43 Friday, December 6, 2002 3:38 PM
Reply #43 Friday, December 6, 2002 3:38 PM
Where did you get the idea this was the place to post bugs? Is this the Stardock site? Is there a 'bug' forum? Anyway, where on this string did you try to report a bug?
exploreRPG3918
Reply #44 Friday, December 6, 2002 3:42 PM
Reply #44 Friday, December 6, 2002 3:42 PM
If you need more info, I can provide it.. Remember the image file is nothing more than data on a disk.
There are government Databases that are managed which are larger than your image files. So You could, in theory make an large scale image editor or processor based on the same data retreival and update algorithms that is used to process databases.
But I'm not a developer so what do I know? If you like I'll write the routine in VB to satisfy your curiousity. (14 year old kids love VB!)
hehe lighten up... you guys are making this more personal than it should be.
There are government Databases that are managed which are larger than your image files. So You could, in theory make an large scale image editor or processor based on the same data retreival and update algorithms that is used to process databases.
But I'm not a developer so what do I know? If you like I'll write the routine in VB to satisfy your curiousity. (14 year old kids love VB!)
hehe lighten up... you guys are making this more personal than it should be.
messybuu
Reply #45 Friday, December 6, 2002 3:42 PM
Reply #45 Friday, December 6, 2002 3:42 PM
Reminds me of the skit on SNL about The View with that woman who would always "I'm a lawyer..." when making some claim.
exploreRPG3918
Reply #46 Friday, December 6, 2002 3:46 PM
Reply #46 Friday, December 6, 2002 3:46 PM
bakerstreet,
Maybe we got off the wrong foot... Let me apologize for insulting you..
I am just a Win9x user who is a programmer and needs support. My posts are not with some technical background. And Win9x is still a viable and useful OS. If every WinXP user flames Win9X user, this site will get a bad reputation.
I had a few kids who visit my gaming site complain that they can't get support here.
Again, I'm sorry.. I'm here to support and find bugs.. Not defend my choice of OS's.
Maybe we got off the wrong foot... Let me apologize for insulting you..
I am just a Win9x user who is a programmer and needs support. My posts are not with some technical background. And Win9x is still a viable and useful OS. If every WinXP user flames Win9X user, this site will get a bad reputation.
I had a few kids who visit my gaming site complain that they can't get support here.
Again, I'm sorry.. I'm here to support and find bugs.. Not defend my choice of OS's.
exploreRPG3918
Reply #47 Friday, December 6, 2002 3:51 PM
Reply #47 Friday, December 6, 2002 3:51 PM
But if you need that image processing app I can get write for you. I don't know the entire purpose of what you are doing, but there are methods for accessing images in parts and editing them instead of loading the entire image at once.
Furthermore there are methods for psuedo loading the entire image just to give you a general idea of what image looks like. While the program can perform the changes in the background.
A good developer can develop any situation to get the desired end result. So, claiming more memory is the only solutio is not always true. (if you are developer.)
Furthermore there are methods for psuedo loading the entire image just to give you a general idea of what image looks like. While the program can perform the changes in the background.
A good developer can develop any situation to get the desired end result. So, claiming more memory is the only solutio is not always true. (if you are developer.)
pjpowell
Reply #48 Friday, December 6, 2002 3:54 PM
Reply #48 Friday, December 6, 2002 3:54 PM
ExploreRPG: The whole point is that this is NOT the place to expect support with Stardock related products unless it is the SkinBrowser. The place for that is news.stardock.com for the peer to peer support and [email protected] for specific support. However most 98pjpowell related 'bugs' turn out to be with other apps that leak resources and leak faster when something which causes more repaints is taking over their repaints. This is a fact and is not something Stardock can resolve. The workaround is to limit what WB tries to do to the app using exclusion settings or report the issue to the developer of the app that is leaking or has problems (good luck on that one in most cases). The alternative workaround (which people have mentioned) is to change to 2K or XP as that is not an issue due to different resource handling.
pjpowell
Reply #49 Friday, December 6, 2002 4:05 PM
Reply #49 Friday, December 6, 2002 4:05 PM
In reference to your comments on Photoshop. You mention the fact that it doesn't need to load it all into memory at once etc. Obviously if you are reading/writing from/to disk it will take longer than accessing the image in memory directly. When you are editing an image you don't want to find that your while painting little pauses are occuring while the program does it's efficient graphic accessing.
I should mention that Photoshop already can make use of a scratch disk to store data so it presumably is doing something like you mention. But it only needs to do this after it has run out of real memory to use. It is perfectly possible to use Photoshop on low amounts of memory (someone at work used it on 64MB) but there will be annoying slow downs as scratch disks are used. So the more memory the better.
I should mention that Photoshop already can make use of a scratch disk to store data so it presumably is doing something like you mention. But it only needs to do this after it has run out of real memory to use. It is perfectly possible to use Photoshop on low amounts of memory (someone at work used it on 64MB) but there will be annoying slow downs as scratch disks are used. So the more memory the better.
bakerstreet
Reply #50 Friday, December 6, 2002 4:09 PM
Reply #50 Friday, December 6, 2002 4:09 PM
exploreRPG!: no offense, but nothing you are saying has any relationship to a real image manipulation app. No one is talking about batch watermarking, file conversion, or applying filters.
Realtime painting requires the image to be loaded into memory, and anything that touches on disk access is painfully slow. Just ask anyone who falls back on virtual memory or scratch disk to supplement their RAM.
I feel for ya, I really do, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Your best bet is to follow pjpowell's advice on the bug problem, and in your off-time read up a bit more on how a paint-app works. Once you ahve a good basis for discourse, I'm sure any of us would be open to any ideas you may have.
Realtime painting requires the image to be loaded into memory, and anything that touches on disk access is painfully slow. Just ask anyone who falls back on virtual memory or scratch disk to supplement their RAM.
I feel for ya, I really do, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Your best bet is to follow pjpowell's advice on the bug problem, and in your off-time read up a bit more on how a paint-app works. Once you ahve a good basis for discourse, I'm sure any of us would be open to any ideas you may have.
bakerstreet
Reply #51 Friday, December 6, 2002 4:11 PM
Reply #51 Friday, December 6, 2002 4:11 PM
lol, pjpowell. Great minds think alike 
. I must type slow...
. I must type slow...
pjpowell
Reply #52 Friday, December 6, 2002 4:20 PM
Reply #52 Friday, December 6, 2002 4:20 PM
pjpowell runs away screaming
He said my mind is like his!!!!
He said my mind is like his!!!!
Frogboy
Reply #53 Friday, December 6, 2002 4:46 PM
Reply #53 Friday, December 6, 2002 4:46 PM
No on said that Win98Frogboy users shouldn't expect bugs to be fixed.
But they shouldn't expect new features to be created specifically for them either. WinME has the WinME Start bar and WindowBlinds skins that. If you want a fancier Start bar you'll have to either get WIndows XP or use ObjectBar.
As for making it personal, you gotta be kidding? You're the one who has been running around calling people names.
And no, I'm not interested in "efficiency" of code taken to the Nth degree. If I were I'd be writing in assembly language.
The goal of a professional software developer is to write software that works well for the majority of potential customers.
When I write a game, I look at what the target market typical hardware setup is. As long as I can write the program that fits those specs, then I'm going to sacrifice memory efficiency for writing more readable, maintainable code as well as write code that is easier to do.
The game I'm working on right now uses almost 80 megabytes of memory. I'm sure we could, if we doubled the development time, get it down to using less than half that. But today's modern games tend to use at least that much memory if not more and "wasting" memory can cut down significantly on development costs.
But they shouldn't expect new features to be created specifically for them either. WinME has the WinME Start bar and WindowBlinds skins that. If you want a fancier Start bar you'll have to either get WIndows XP or use ObjectBar.
As for making it personal, you gotta be kidding? You're the one who has been running around calling people names.
And no, I'm not interested in "efficiency" of code taken to the Nth degree. If I were I'd be writing in assembly language.
The goal of a professional software developer is to write software that works well for the majority of potential customers.
When I write a game, I look at what the target market typical hardware setup is. As long as I can write the program that fits those specs, then I'm going to sacrifice memory efficiency for writing more readable, maintainable code as well as write code that is easier to do.
The game I'm working on right now uses almost 80 megabytes of memory. I'm sure we could, if we doubled the development time, get it down to using less than half that. But today's modern games tend to use at least that much memory if not more and "wasting" memory can cut down significantly on development costs.
Frogboy
Reply #54 Friday, December 6, 2002 4:48 PM
Reply #54 Friday, December 6, 2002 4:48 PM
BTW, ExplorerRPG, if you need technical support then why are you posting here?
This a customization message board, not a Stardock tech support forum.
This a customization message board, not a Stardock tech support forum.
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Reply #41 Friday, December 6, 2002 3:31 PM
"if I weren't an "adult" I would have already exiled you from this site for being so obnoxious. It is my "adult"ness that allows you to have the ability to spout out your rather incomplete knowledge of operating system technology. Suspecting that you're a kid doesn't make me look like an "ass". I suspect most people would agree with me that guessing that you're a kid is a pretty good guess."
I haven't expressed any knowledge of operating system technology. I'm merely expressing that there are Win9x users here that need support. Any "limits" that I may have are my own, and you have yet to determine.
WinXP requires about 256MB of RAM!!! Whoooahh.. I thought it was 190MB.. Thats worse than I thought.. I guess you think C++ is better than C, huh? OOP overkill at its finest..
"Windows XP offers some pretty significant enhancements over Windows ME:
+ Much better stability
+ DLL caching
+ Remote Desktop
+ NTFS
+ REAL security
+ Better multitasking
+ Better visual APIs (CursorXP, WindowFX, and other enhancements that require these new APIs)."
NTFS is a choice..
Security? - Can I *REMOVE* IE? Thats the security I'm looking for.
Visual APIs? Under slow GDI+ Yea.. Ok.
Stabiliy? Yes.. It does, its based on the NT frame.
But if you were paying attention, I NEVER said WinME was better.. You are putting words in my mouth. I am saying that there are Win9x users who need and deserve support.
Bugs reported by Win9x users are VALID bugs, not just "Its your OS. Upgrade to WinXP"
DLL caching.. Interesting..
"You sound like one of those old Amiga people that talked about how they could multitask with 512K of RAM. Goody for them."
Yea.. real good.. So you don't expect Microsoft to optimize their code? You are happy with the waste? Just wondering...
"Windows XP requires around 256MB of RAM. That means it costs around $75 to get enough RAM for it.
By contrast, Windows 3.1 cost about $160 to get enough RAM for it."
Oh, so because ram is cheaper lets waste it on BLOATED applications.. Check out this site.
www.powerbasic.com
They are some really talented guys in the war against BLOATWARE.
Look, I'm not trying to be rude but my bugs posts are real.. not a joke.