Interesting Thread about peoples attitudes over at Neowin
Tuesday, November 26, 2002 by c242 | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=42&t=52058&s=67ca400c785dee399480b893bd22dc1d
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c242
Reply #2 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 3:06 PM
Reply #2 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 3:06 PM
I should have written something to that. 
Why do people always expect verything for free ? Paul has done so much free stunning stuff, why not support him ? I don't get it... I also don't think that Twist is doing something wrong as long as he keeps the icons for his private use. 
Why do people always expect verything for free ? Paul has done so much free stunning stuff, why not support him ? I don't get it... I also don't think that Twist is doing something wrong as long as he keeps the icons for his private use. 
da_zman20
Reply #4 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 3:24 PM
Reply #4 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 3:24 PM
I don't like those guys... I bought those Icons, and I have downloaded all of the Fauxs-x Icons... because I support mormegil and I believe he deserves that money... and just because those guys welfare checks aren't big enough for them to support the art that they obviously like enough to rip... some people just have no class... and in response to their question or who would buy those... I did, and I gave a donation at Fauxs-x.com because I like the work is done there....
bakerstreet
Reply #5 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 4:06 PM
Reply #5 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 4:06 PM
If people alter stuff for their own use they aren't rippers. If you wanna take the time to cut out every image from a set and convert them to icons, hey, it's your time. I personally value that kind of time more than $9.95
I do, though, think it is kind of kind of offensive to be snide about 'welfare checks'. I know people that are on welfare, and I know a lot of people who are worth more than I'll make in my entire life. Stupidity and Class is evenly distributed across all levels of wealth, as da_zman20 shows us so elequently here...
I do, though, think it is kind of kind of offensive to be snide about 'welfare checks'. I know people that are on welfare, and I know a lot of people who are worth more than I'll make in my entire life. Stupidity and Class is evenly distributed across all levels of wealth, as da_zman20 shows us so elequently here...
moshi
Reply #6 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 4:36 PM
Reply #6 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 4:36 PM
i don´t agree with bakerstreet on real life issues very often, but here i do.
Jafo
Reply #7 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 6:45 PM
Reply #7 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 6:45 PM
Ah...so 'twist' is right because he has 3000 comments, and Grayhaze is wrong because he's only a professional and has 50 comments.
There's total logic in a nutshell.
Perhaps Neowin is being a bit too insular...certainly some of its members are.
Twist, you are a prat...and you are wrong.
The image of the icon set is to look at, which, by necessity of the methodology used, must be cached onto your harddrive.
THAT is its intended use, and therefore is the limit of its legal copyright use.
Removing it from your temp file/cache and modifying it as a stand-alone icon is beyond that limit and therefore abuse of copyright.
However...
No MATERIAL harm is done by doing this, so it would be highly unlikely to be pursued.
Were you to pass that 'icon' to a third person, THEN you would be in trouble.
In fact, the example image displayed in the thread IS a copyright issue 'just maybe' protected by 'fair use', as it is for 'educational example'.
Bugs me when pseudo experts spout crap.
Leave it to the real ones...
There's total logic in a nutshell.
Perhaps Neowin is being a bit too insular...certainly some of its members are.
Twist, you are a prat...and you are wrong.
The image of the icon set is to look at, which, by necessity of the methodology used, must be cached onto your harddrive.
THAT is its intended use, and therefore is the limit of its legal copyright use.
Removing it from your temp file/cache and modifying it as a stand-alone icon is beyond that limit and therefore abuse of copyright.
However...
No MATERIAL harm is done by doing this, so it would be highly unlikely to be pursued.
Were you to pass that 'icon' to a third person, THEN you would be in trouble.
In fact, the example image displayed in the thread IS a copyright issue 'just maybe' protected by 'fair use', as it is for 'educational example'.
Bugs me when pseudo experts spout crap.
Leave it to the real ones...
Jafo
Reply #8 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 6:55 PM
Reply #8 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 6:55 PM
My evil twin is a total peanut....consistent, but a total peanut...
Frogboy
Reply #9 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 6:56 PM
Reply #9 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 6:56 PM
It's the age old issue:
Time vs. Money.
Some guy is going to spend literally dozens of hours to rip the icons for personal use rather than pay $10 for them.
Let's say you make $30,000 per year. That's $15 per hour.
That's why these discussions end up as adults vs. teens. Most adults have jobs. And when you're working 40 hours per week, time becomes a real premium. A teenager has time to burn often times (not always but often).
If something is <$20 then it's an impulse buy for me. Sure, I might be able to spend time on the net trying to find a crack and then downloading it and messing around trying to get it to work but if I can pay $10 or $20 for something and bam, be done with it, then it's a no brainer which way makes more sense.
A 16 year old without a job can't imagine buying icons because either $10 seems like a lot of money to them or they don't see spending a couple hours trying to cobble together something half as good as a bad use of time.
Time vs. Money.
Some guy is going to spend literally dozens of hours to rip the icons for personal use rather than pay $10 for them.
Let's say you make $30,000 per year. That's $15 per hour.
That's why these discussions end up as adults vs. teens. Most adults have jobs. And when you're working 40 hours per week, time becomes a real premium. A teenager has time to burn often times (not always but often).
If something is <$20 then it's an impulse buy for me. Sure, I might be able to spend time on the net trying to find a crack and then downloading it and messing around trying to get it to work but if I can pay $10 or $20 for something and bam, be done with it, then it's a no brainer which way makes more sense.
A 16 year old without a job can't imagine buying icons because either $10 seems like a lot of money to them or they don't see spending a couple hours trying to cobble together something half as good as a bad use of time.
jarget
Reply #10 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 7:14 PM
Reply #10 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 7:14 PM
I agree with c242. Everybody expects to get everything for free. All people need to do is buy what they want to buy and not buy what they don't want. Simple as that. Just be an Informed Consumer. I for one don't mind paying for an artist's work. They put in alot of time and energy in their works. Damn I wish I could do what they do.
As for the freeloaders, I don't know what world they come from where everything is free. But hey tell me how to your world.
As for the freeloaders, I don't know what world they come from where everything is free. But hey tell me how to your world.
bakerstreet
Reply #11 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 8:25 PM
Reply #11 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 8:25 PM
jafo: i don't see how Twist's solution is any different than cutting up a wallpaper into a Litestep theme for personal use. I'm not gonna argue with ya, to each his own, but the sin in question doesn't seem to be worth the attention, since we *all* do stuff like that.
In the same regard, moderate cost of Windows XP is hardly equivalent to the numerous hours it takes to construct skins that make Win98 look like it, nor is it any more legal than what Twist is doing. The same could be said for Beos, OSX, or any sliced up screenshot.
In the same regard, moderate cost of Windows XP is hardly equivalent to the numerous hours it takes to construct skins that make Win98 look like it, nor is it any more legal than what Twist is doing. The same could be said for Beos, OSX, or any sliced up screenshot.
Jafo
Reply #12 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:02 PM
Reply #12 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:02 PM
baker...no, I agree...there's nothing 'wrong', we all naturally do it, but they were all getting pedantic over there, and I'm a master of pedantry...
Koasati
Reply #13 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:32 PM
Reply #13 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:32 PM
Jafo,I was about to ask you how you can be so against twist in this instance, yet take the "grey area" stance on OS porting, but Auggie beat me to it.
I see from your reply, you're just showing off.
I see from your reply, you're just showing off.
paxx
Reply #14 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:36 PM
Reply #14 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:36 PM
Forgboy, I agree to a point.
I don't make any money in the evenings and weekends. Spending time doing something to save money is defendable since one would do it in his "free" time. Doesn't cost a thing. Only time. Some people spend whole evenings playing games, some others have fun making things and saving money. Why not?
I don't make any money in the evenings and weekends. Spending time doing something to save money is defendable since one would do it in his "free" time. Doesn't cost a thing. Only time. Some people spend whole evenings playing games, some others have fun making things and saving money. Why not?
Jafo
Reply #15 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:39 PM
Reply #15 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:39 PM
Exactly, Randy....
Twist 'claimed' he was right when he wasn't, Grayhaze claimed he [twist] was wrong which was right, and I claimed twist was a prat [which he is] and Grayhaze was right [which he is], and not a prat [which he isn't], and Evil Jafo was consistent [which he is] and also not me [which he is - not, that is].
So, all's well...
Twist 'claimed' he was right when he wasn't, Grayhaze claimed he [twist] was wrong which was right, and I claimed twist was a prat [which he is] and Grayhaze was right [which he is], and not a prat [which he isn't], and Evil Jafo was consistent [which he is] and also not me [which he is - not, that is].
So, all's well...
paxx
Reply #16 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 10:30 PM
Reply #16 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 10:30 PM
Just thought of something...
I once went in a restaurant and ate a great meal. Great food, but costly.
The next week, I tried to reproduce the recipe and didn't quite get it. Some time later, I gave it another try, and continued to try about 3 other times. Finally got it pretty darn close. Not exactly it, but still pretty good.
Sure it took a lot of time to make that darn recipe, when I could have just dropped in the car and dine in the restaurant. But after some of my own free time, I ended up with a much cheaper meal, and still pretty good. And it was fun anyway.
I once went in a restaurant and ate a great meal. Great food, but costly.
The next week, I tried to reproduce the recipe and didn't quite get it. Some time later, I gave it another try, and continued to try about 3 other times. Finally got it pretty darn close. Not exactly it, but still pretty good.
Sure it took a lot of time to make that darn recipe, when I could have just dropped in the car and dine in the restaurant. But after some of my own free time, I ended up with a much cheaper meal, and still pretty good. And it was fun anyway.
bakerstreet
Reply #17 Wednesday, November 27, 2002 12:56 AM
Reply #17 Wednesday, November 27, 2002 12:56 AM
Jafo: never let it be said I stood between a man and a good, needless flaming. I understand completely.
paxx: hmmm... you cook, too. I'll have to be less pissy to you in the future...
paxx: hmmm... you cook, too. I'll have to be less pissy to you in the future...
Aquamonkey
Reply #19 Wednesday, November 27, 2002 1:41 AM
Reply #19 Wednesday, November 27, 2002 1:41 AM
I wouldn't take much notice of many of the posters on NeoWin these days (Look at p5 of that thread, it's not really possible to understand what their saying anyway). As for the site itself I think they've lost a lot of their (IT)professional browsers due to not being able to keep their site running over the last few monthes.
bakerstreet
Reply #20 Wednesday, November 27, 2002 3:26 AM
Reply #20 Wednesday, November 27, 2002 3:26 AM
kinrik: Hrm, yeah; I hadn't thought of that. Neo french, maybe, or some sort of pre-exodus cajun...
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Reply #1 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 2:55 PM
Jafo´s evil twin is amusing as always though