2000 WindowBlinds skins
Sunday, November 24, 2002 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Well there are now 2000 WindowBlinds skins on this site alone.
Obviously there have been a lot more created that were lost with Skinz.org's demise as well as elsewhere. Plus an equal number that never saw the light of day here because they were rips or essentially duplicates (i.e. "It's Luna but a slightly different shade of blue..").
A year ago today there were 1,416 skins here. It probably doesn't come as a shock that we monitor the # of skins being made in various formats. I thought I'd share some of this with y'all.
1,416 WB skins a year ago. And 63 msstyles.
Now, there's 2000 WindowBlinds skins and about 600 msstyles. (an increase of around 584 WindowBlinds skins and 537 msstyles) for a net total of over 1000 new visual styles created in the past year (though quite a bit of duplicates in that 1000, particularly on the msstyles side).
In late April of 2002 themexp had a crash and lost the 559 msstyles it had. It took until October 28 to get back to that number with most of those msstyles being ones that were previously on the site just re-submitted. There's definitey been a significant decreaes in activity on the msstyle side which is discouraging (for us, a skin author is a skin author is a skin author).
On WindowBlinds, we're concerned about seeing the same thing happen. One of the things we're hoping to get in by WindowBlinds 4 is the creation of a new meta skin format. Basically, a quasi-universal skin format that can then be exported by SkinStudio into multiple skin formats. So your skin could be turned instantly into a WindowBlinds skin, a trillian skin or even a Media Player skin (with obvious limitations), or an ObjectBar skin or whatever.
With a meta format, the "compiler" (SkinStudio in this case) could handle the parts you choose not to do and fill them in for you automatically. The best skins would still be the ones where the author created each and every part.
But by allowing users to create a decent looking visual style without having to do every last part, it will hopefully allow new skinners to get into the "scene" gradually.
The meta format could, for instance, create the explorer task panel for you by looking at your title bar, frames and title bar buttons. It wouldn't be as nice as someone who actually took the time to do it, but on the other hand it would still look pretty good.
Plus SkinStudio itself could be put into different modes for different user levels. The beginner could just worry about making the needed buttons, title bar and borders and let the meta format take care of the rest by generating the rest on the fly.
On top of that, we hope with WindowBlinds 4 to support a new technology that will allow for collaborative skins created by skin authors who don't even know each other. Thus dividing the work into parts for people who are interested in doing that.
So the goal with WindowBlinds 4 in 2003 will be to try to make skinning far more accessible to bring in new people while putting in features that let the pros really shine.
Obviously there have been a lot more created that were lost with Skinz.org's demise as well as elsewhere. Plus an equal number that never saw the light of day here because they were rips or essentially duplicates (i.e. "It's Luna but a slightly different shade of blue..").
A year ago today there were 1,416 skins here. It probably doesn't come as a shock that we monitor the # of skins being made in various formats. I thought I'd share some of this with y'all.
1,416 WB skins a year ago. And 63 msstyles.
Now, there's 2000 WindowBlinds skins and about 600 msstyles. (an increase of around 584 WindowBlinds skins and 537 msstyles) for a net total of over 1000 new visual styles created in the past year (though quite a bit of duplicates in that 1000, particularly on the msstyles side).
In late April of 2002 themexp had a crash and lost the 559 msstyles it had. It took until October 28 to get back to that number with most of those msstyles being ones that were previously on the site just re-submitted. There's definitey been a significant decreaes in activity on the msstyle side which is discouraging (for us, a skin author is a skin author is a skin author).
On WindowBlinds, we're concerned about seeing the same thing happen. One of the things we're hoping to get in by WindowBlinds 4 is the creation of a new meta skin format. Basically, a quasi-universal skin format that can then be exported by SkinStudio into multiple skin formats. So your skin could be turned instantly into a WindowBlinds skin, a trillian skin or even a Media Player skin (with obvious limitations), or an ObjectBar skin or whatever.
With a meta format, the "compiler" (SkinStudio in this case) could handle the parts you choose not to do and fill them in for you automatically. The best skins would still be the ones where the author created each and every part.
But by allowing users to create a decent looking visual style without having to do every last part, it will hopefully allow new skinners to get into the "scene" gradually.
The meta format could, for instance, create the explorer task panel for you by looking at your title bar, frames and title bar buttons. It wouldn't be as nice as someone who actually took the time to do it, but on the other hand it would still look pretty good.
Plus SkinStudio itself could be put into different modes for different user levels. The beginner could just worry about making the needed buttons, title bar and borders and let the meta format take care of the rest by generating the rest on the fly.
On top of that, we hope with WindowBlinds 4 to support a new technology that will allow for collaborative skins created by skin authors who don't even know each other. Thus dividing the work into parts for people who are interested in doing that.
So the goal with WindowBlinds 4 in 2003 will be to try to make skinning far more accessible to bring in new people while putting in features that let the pros really shine.
WOM
Reply #3 Sunday, November 24, 2002 8:49 AM
Reply #3 Sunday, November 24, 2002 8:49 AM
Sounds like the Bryce for windowblinds. Push a few buttons, wait 24 hours and there is your skin. Starting to sound to automated, to easy to create. Hope the quality doesn't slip due to laziness.
elvee
Reply #4 Sunday, November 24, 2002 11:21 AM
Reply #4 Sunday, November 24, 2002 11:21 AM
"Let the program finish what i started idea" 
I think i will stick with Quality Factor.
I think i will stick with Quality Factor.
joetheblow
Reply #5 Sunday, November 24, 2002 1:17 PM
Reply #5 Sunday, November 24, 2002 1:17 PM
It is so hard to be mainstream and not be to repeatitive. Making it easier to skin might bring more people, which is good, but also kill the quality, which is bad.
I say, go for it! There will always be good skinners who will do the complete job. Those who don't will get a better chance to do so and/or just fade into history.
I say, go for it! There will always be good skinners who will do the complete job. Those who don't will get a better chance to do so and/or just fade into history.
Frogboy
Reply #6 Sunday, November 24, 2002 2:05 PM
Reply #6 Sunday, November 24, 2002 2:05 PM
Bryce? That's a real stretch. There's no button that will make a skin for you. What we hope to have is for the meta format be able to take what parts you do create and extrapolate for the parts you don't or can't do. Nothing is going to magically create your title bars and borders for example.
3 years ago, a "complete" WindowBlinds skin was essentially title bar, borders, title bar buttons. That's in. An hour or two of work.
By WindowBlinds 3, a full skin takes about 35 hours to do.
By WindowBlinds 4 it'll take 40+ hours (now you have to do slider controls, shell styles, toolbar windows, etc.).
BTW, there is a boxed version of WindowBlinds available at some retailers like Microcenter.
3 years ago, a "complete" WindowBlinds skin was essentially title bar, borders, title bar buttons. That's in. An hour or two of work.
By WindowBlinds 3, a full skin takes about 35 hours to do.
By WindowBlinds 4 it'll take 40+ hours (now you have to do slider controls, shell styles, toolbar windows, etc.).
BTW, there is a boxed version of WindowBlinds available at some retailers like Microcenter.
GreenReaper
Reply #7 Sunday, November 24, 2002 5:03 PM
Reply #7 Sunday, November 24, 2002 5:03 PM
I have to agree with WOM here - we need to take care that quality doesn't fall by the wayside. Perhaps it's not possible to make a titlebar and border, but it's not hard to imagine something that takes a button image and extrapolates it into a whole bunch of other controls, and how likely is it that this exact same image will be ideal for all of the images it's used for? However, the skin will now be "complete", so why bother taking the time to make it better?
And how likely is it that this magic program will be able to take advantage of all the intricacies of each format? For example, WindowBlinds supports a far greater feature set than msstyles. What would this program create? The common denominator of all features?
These problems can probably be avoided, but I think they need to be bourne in mind when creating future versions of SkinStudio.
And how likely is it that this magic program will be able to take advantage of all the intricacies of each format? For example, WindowBlinds supports a far greater feature set than msstyles. What would this program create? The common denominator of all features?
These problems can probably be avoided, but I think they need to be bourne in mind when creating future versions of SkinStudio.
Frogboy
Reply #8 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 12:04 AM
Reply #8 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 12:04 AM
Well what we do know is that unless things get easier for skin authors, we'll see fewer and fewer skins.
I mostly stick to porting skins now because I don't have time to make skins. But I'd like to make skins. Making skins is supposed to be fun. Let the moderators and users worry about the quality of skins.
I don't agree that skinning should be some arcane art that is only to be done by elites. I don't see how it affects quality, on the contrary:
Many talented graphics designers don't create skins because it takes too long. We still end up with lots of "complete" but ugly skins. I would rather that talent be a major factor in what skins we have to chose from rather than how much time a skin author is willing to dedicate.
We are very fortunate that people like Adni and Treetog and Alexandrie and Essorant and others are willing to spend the time to create full skins. But I suspect there are many skin authors in the wings that would be willing to create skins if it wasn't so labor intensive.
I don't see a deluge of "Bryce" skins because there's no magic bullet that will make creating a skin a 10 minute thing. We're talking about a new skin taking 2 hours instead of 40 hours. It still represents a lot of effort. But now it might not take so much time as to discourage graphics designers.
Why hasn't, for instance, Dangeruss created a skin recently? Or Allen Bond? I suspect time is an issue.
A "complete" WB skin (and there aren't many) includes things like a "+ and -" button for trees. That's not very fun. And I hate working on combo boxes. What artisticness is involved in making a combo box border? Why not have SkinStudio be able to OPTIONALLY generate this kind of stuff for you by analysing the rest of your skin and creating it for you? (combo box button for instance could be derived from the push button and a glyph).
I mostly stick to porting skins now because I don't have time to make skins. But I'd like to make skins. Making skins is supposed to be fun. Let the moderators and users worry about the quality of skins.
I don't agree that skinning should be some arcane art that is only to be done by elites. I don't see how it affects quality, on the contrary:
Many talented graphics designers don't create skins because it takes too long. We still end up with lots of "complete" but ugly skins. I would rather that talent be a major factor in what skins we have to chose from rather than how much time a skin author is willing to dedicate.
We are very fortunate that people like Adni and Treetog and Alexandrie and Essorant and others are willing to spend the time to create full skins. But I suspect there are many skin authors in the wings that would be willing to create skins if it wasn't so labor intensive.
I don't see a deluge of "Bryce" skins because there's no magic bullet that will make creating a skin a 10 minute thing. We're talking about a new skin taking 2 hours instead of 40 hours. It still represents a lot of effort. But now it might not take so much time as to discourage graphics designers.
Why hasn't, for instance, Dangeruss created a skin recently? Or Allen Bond? I suspect time is an issue.
A "complete" WB skin (and there aren't many) includes things like a "+ and -" button for trees. That's not very fun. And I hate working on combo boxes. What artisticness is involved in making a combo box border? Why not have SkinStudio be able to OPTIONALLY generate this kind of stuff for you by analysing the rest of your skin and creating it for you? (combo box button for instance could be derived from the push button and a glyph).
Ande
Reply #9 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 1:29 AM
Reply #9 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 1:29 AM
I may be wrong/probably,we'll see. From reading this thread, it would appear, if the present trend continues, the volume of WB skins being created will drastically reduce. If this is the case, does that mean that the thousands of visitors to this site (ever increasing) will not see enough to encourage them to buy Program WB.
It makes marketing sense to me that by reducing the time to produce a blind 40hrs to 2hrs should dramatically increase the output of new creations
It makes marketing sense to me that by reducing the time to produce a blind 40hrs to 2hrs should dramatically increase the output of new creations
bakerstreet
Reply #10 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 1:43 AM
Reply #10 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 1:43 AM
I fall right in the middle. I don't think people should get bored and leave the rest to 'default', but if a skin looks good with plain, flat buttons I don't think anyone should be given hell for using them.
Too many times skinners get flamed because they didn't do fine detail on every single part. As long as the 'generic' aspects are as thought out as the detailed ones, I don't see any trouble. If the new WB makes that easier, I'm all for it. Sometimes a doorknob is just a doorknob.
I'm sure it won't be anything like the old winamp 'skinner' programs.
Too many times skinners get flamed because they didn't do fine detail on every single part. As long as the 'generic' aspects are as thought out as the detailed ones, I don't see any trouble. If the new WB makes that easier, I'm all for it. Sometimes a doorknob is just a doorknob.
I'm sure it won't be anything like the old winamp 'skinner' programs.
mrbiotech
Reply #11 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 1:46 AM
Reply #11 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 1:46 AM
Frogboy, I think you've presented the vision of Stardock very succintly, innovation. The amateur skinner in me jumps at the thought of an easier way to make WB/OB personalities (currently finding SkinStudio somewhat intimidating). The "meta" format appeals to me because it would provide as much, or as little, intricacy as the skinner demands. I can foresee the pros being able to whip out high-quality skins in multiples per year. Sure makes porting a lot easier, too.
I can't complain about this possibility. It'll put skinning into the grasp of the common user while still permitting (promoting?) pros to maintain high standards. I like it.
I can't complain about this possibility. It'll put skinning into the grasp of the common user while still permitting (promoting?) pros to maintain high standards. I like it.
Ande
Reply #12 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 1:50 AM
Reply #12 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 1:50 AM
Not finished yet.
but I would like to hear from the skiners themselves on this issue and i mean the skinners who regularlly contribute to this site.
This is pure supposition but could not Stardock hire 3-4 skinners, come up with a stack of pre defined colour combinations and bash out 12 to 16 new skins a day. On the other hand with this new skinning system a whole bunch of new skinners/and old (not aged) may be able to create who knows how many? Just a few thoughts.
I don't know what to think.
but I would like to hear from the skiners themselves on this issue and i mean the skinners who regularlly contribute to this site.
This is pure supposition but could not Stardock hire 3-4 skinners, come up with a stack of pre defined colour combinations and bash out 12 to 16 new skins a day. On the other hand with this new skinning system a whole bunch of new skinners/and old (not aged) may be able to create who knows how many? Just a few thoughts.
I don't know what to think.
Jafo
Reply #13 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 4:26 AM
Reply #13 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 4:26 AM
Ande...take it from a skinner....creating WB skins [and others] is not a 'bash it out' process at all.
It takes quite a bit of time...and quite a lot more to tweak it to get it 'right'...
It takes quite a bit of time...and quite a lot more to tweak it to get it 'right'...
Ande
Reply #14 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 6:16 AM
Reply #14 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 6:16 AM
I know what your saying Jafo. I for one certainly appreciate what it takes to create a skin, having tried on several occasions to no avail. I admire enormously those who can skin. I'm a bit like WOM,I need to be personally instructed in words of one syllable. (No offence intended WOM I remember you saying somthing similar).
But 40HRS down to 2HRS?. I might not understand, but will that not take away the uniqueness of the skins as we now know them?
And why will that not take them into a Bryce type category?
No one would want the Skinners to slave for those
extra hrs if it is not necessary. I can wait for a new skin to be uploaded, and, when i download it I know i have somthing unique on my computer. If I am confronted with 20+ new skins every time i log on, I suppose i will download the ones that look good to me, however it will not feel the same I fear.
Please, I would like the Skinners out there Adni,APB Z71 etc etc, to comment on this proposal. Then tell us that this IS the way of the future and they will still have as much pride in their creative efforts as they do now. If they say this is the way I will be all for it also.
One last thing, Of course the skinners, if they wish, can produce a skin whthout resorting to the new additional features being offered, but that would put them in a different category would it not?
But 40HRS down to 2HRS?. I might not understand, but will that not take away the uniqueness of the skins as we now know them?
And why will that not take them into a Bryce type category?
No one would want the Skinners to slave for those
extra hrs if it is not necessary. I can wait for a new skin to be uploaded, and, when i download it I know i have somthing unique on my computer. If I am confronted with 20+ new skins every time i log on, I suppose i will download the ones that look good to me, however it will not feel the same I fear.
Please, I would like the Skinners out there Adni,APB Z71 etc etc, to comment on this proposal. Then tell us that this IS the way of the future and they will still have as much pride in their creative efforts as they do now. If they say this is the way I will be all for it also.
One last thing, Of course the skinners, if they wish, can produce a skin whthout resorting to the new additional features being offered, but that would put them in a different category would it not?
Jafo
Reply #15 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 7:43 AM
Reply #15 Tuesday, November 26, 2002 7:43 AM
Ande...
Once upon a time there was Windowblinds, and skinners played with it in its/their infancy, editing with a graphic proggy and a text editor.
Then came Builderblinds, which enabled the then, still fairly 'simple' Windowblinds skins to be 'made' more easily.
Windowblinds became more complex, and with that, along came Skin Studio to 'help' with the skinning.
Strange thing is that people still can, and do skin for Windowblinds with a paint proggy and a text editor, just like they did all those years ago, without the proggy help.
Now, a newer proggy or 'method' will again help as the skins get yet more complex, and yes, mad dogs and Englishmen will still be making the skins the 'old way', but this 'new way', were it to be a 'WinAMP Skinmaker' for Windowblinds, would be shunned purely for its 'photoskin-quality' product.
Many modern Windowblind skins are little more than a recoloured Luna with a quirk or two...and these are done by people looking for quantity [uploads/downloads] and not 'quality' - [read 'innovation'].
Fact of life. Everyone wants to be popular...
Conservatism/practicality stifles imagination.
But...if more people are attracted to the game, more creativity 'may' be the outcome, not just more 'clones'...
Once upon a time there was Windowblinds, and skinners played with it in its/their infancy, editing with a graphic proggy and a text editor.
Then came Builderblinds, which enabled the then, still fairly 'simple' Windowblinds skins to be 'made' more easily.
Windowblinds became more complex, and with that, along came Skin Studio to 'help' with the skinning.
Strange thing is that people still can, and do skin for Windowblinds with a paint proggy and a text editor, just like they did all those years ago, without the proggy help.
Now, a newer proggy or 'method' will again help as the skins get yet more complex, and yes, mad dogs and Englishmen will still be making the skins the 'old way', but this 'new way', were it to be a 'WinAMP Skinmaker' for Windowblinds, would be shunned purely for its 'photoskin-quality' product.
Many modern Windowblind skins are little more than a recoloured Luna with a quirk or two...and these are done by people looking for quantity [uploads/downloads] and not 'quality' - [read 'innovation'].
Fact of life. Everyone wants to be popular...
Conservatism/practicality stifles imagination.
But...if more people are attracted to the game, more creativity 'may' be the outcome, not just more 'clones'...
Ande
Reply #16 Friday, November 29, 2002 12:50 AM
Reply #16 Friday, November 29, 2002 12:50 AM
I hear what your saying Jafo, I think your last sentence is very important and relevant. 
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Reply #1 Sunday, November 24, 2002 6:41 AM
That would introduce a whole new audience to WB that would previously never have even encountered it.