Re Iraq Poll
Tuesday, October 8, 2002 by Fuzzy Logic | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I voted for option 3. However, Saddam should have been sorted out during the gulf war. We had the chance to chop his ass into tiny pieces right then. Problem sorted. Because that route wasn't taken then we have the situation now whereby either action or inaction is unacceptable. Plus the additional suffering caused to the people of Iraq by Saddam over the intervening period since the gulf war and the almost immediate butchering of the Kurds. We really left them with their flies open.
All too late and all too frantic. This is not going to end well for anyone.
All too late and all too frantic. This is not going to end well for anyone.
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Lecrayon
Reply #162 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 12:21 PM
Reply #162 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 12:21 PM
I find you offensive with that remark. You may nuke everyone you want, and play the intellectual guy. Let me enjoy the creations that are to be admired on earth. And some humans are not fitting in >
Lecrayon
Reply #163 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 12:46 PM
Reply #163 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 12:46 PM
People like you Bakerstreet, that know how to offend people and somehow think they have the right to do that, because of whatever reason, are the pains in the society. You should watch your language first and try to understand what someone else is trying to say rather than to bloat some sentences. War has never been an answer. Yes, it gives a certain of instant relief, but sooner or later you will be drawn into a next one. Whether it is because you don't get your way, or just based on history's wars. War is ridiculous. I would rather see the people that incite masses to go to war or give them reason for outrageous hatred get killed or eliminated. Shoot that silly rule of not assassinating leaders. And sway with your books if you want, there hasn't been any of the books that could be truly implemented as an ideal society. Each of them has failed hilariously due to the perfect behaviour of mankind.
tinkergaloot
Reply #164 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:04 PM
Reply #164 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:04 PM
bakerstreet-
just two points you need to have clarified-
1) If you believe that the US has freedom of the press, then read the quote by John Swinton from my earlier posting.
2)"There are no muslim democracies, that I am aware of." Indonesia, the worlds most populous Muslim nation, is indeed a democracy, albeit a somewhat flawed one.
just two points you need to have clarified-
1) If you believe that the US has freedom of the press, then read the quote by John Swinton from my earlier posting.
2)"There are no muslim democracies, that I am aware of." Indonesia, the worlds most populous Muslim nation, is indeed a democracy, albeit a somewhat flawed one.
bakerstreet
Reply #165 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:18 PM
Reply #165 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:18 PM
Lecrayon: I see no honest rebuttal, just weepy tirades against reality. Things happen, regardless of your personal distaste. I can't help that. There are a lot of people in awful parts of the world living in conditions where they don't have the option of offering 'love' to terrorists. The people in Bali had no option to retreat. The innocent people being killed now are not making war. How do they practice your philosophy? What would you suggest? Die peacefully?
People are screaming "WHy is the U.S. so pissed off?" and I am trying to answer that question from my persepective. Beyond trying to sound more evolved than the rest of us, I haven't seen anything from you that would change minds, only someone trying to shame people into ethical paralysis. War is ridiculous, sure, but it happens. If your country were invaded, or your government started gassing 'undesirables' to death, you'd be much more open to the idea of forceful intervention, I bet.
tinkergaloot: Sure all press is skewed, but as I said, if you take your news from a variety of sources, on both sides, you can glean a lot. Anyway, I'm a little confuised as to how people can educate themselves about current events without some sort of press. I know you wouldn't approve of a paranoid, blind public.
as to indonesia, I meant to say 'arab' instead of muslim, forgive me.
People are screaming "WHy is the U.S. so pissed off?" and I am trying to answer that question from my persepective. Beyond trying to sound more evolved than the rest of us, I haven't seen anything from you that would change minds, only someone trying to shame people into ethical paralysis. War is ridiculous, sure, but it happens. If your country were invaded, or your government started gassing 'undesirables' to death, you'd be much more open to the idea of forceful intervention, I bet.
tinkergaloot: Sure all press is skewed, but as I said, if you take your news from a variety of sources, on both sides, you can glean a lot. Anyway, I'm a little confuised as to how people can educate themselves about current events without some sort of press. I know you wouldn't approve of a paranoid, blind public.
as to indonesia, I meant to say 'arab' instead of muslim, forgive me.
Lecrayon
Reply #166 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:33 PM
Reply #166 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:33 PM
Bakerstreet, your answer to tackle this issue is just as silly as mine. Now you mention Bali, again I am referring to terrorist groups in Europe and Carlitus' input on this thread. There has never been any peace in the world after WW2. Tackle that. You can't. I can't. And united we can for a short time. You perhaps will howl like that soldier that just shot a few Iraki's and chased them into oblivion. To me that is just as paralysing.
paxx
Reply #167 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:46 PM
Reply #167 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:46 PM
Bakerstreet, you are right, there is no such thing as a "muslim democracy" just like there never was such a thing as a "christian democracy". Religious states are always dictatorships.
But there are indeed muslim countries that are democratic: Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Turkey, and more I'm sure. There are also countries that are on the way to democracy, where only the legislative for now is elected. For example Morocco and Jordan.
I'm not trying to argue definitions bakersteet, that's what "Islamic" means. The words "Muslim", "Arab" and "Islamic" are not interchangeable. But indeed the word "Islamic" can often be interchanged with the word "Muslim Integrist".
But there are indeed muslim countries that are democratic: Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Turkey, and more I'm sure. There are also countries that are on the way to democracy, where only the legislative for now is elected. For example Morocco and Jordan.
I'm not trying to argue definitions bakersteet, that's what "Islamic" means. The words "Muslim", "Arab" and "Islamic" are not interchangeable. But indeed the word "Islamic" can often be interchanged with the word "Muslim Integrist".
bakerstreet
Reply #168 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:05 PM
Reply #168 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:05 PM
Lecrayon: you know you are making absolutely no sense, right?
paxx: point taken, but my point was that it really makes no difference if the people are brainwashed citizens of a dictatorship or well-read citizens of free countries. As in your example, if you feel strongly about birth control, you can't just ignore the vatican's stance, that is your opposition. You're not suggest that I find out if people hate america by ignoring all the people who hate America are ya? If the silent majority in all these countries are walking around in 'I Love New York' T-Shirts, I'd suggest strongly that they speak up, it could not be more in their best interest at this point in history.
I'm not trying to be rude to you and tinkergaloot, I promise. I'm just not sure where you guys are suggesting people get their information from, if every possible source is suspect. What do I use to discount all the hateful opinions I hear; faith? How do I look into it, if not through soem sort of published media? I can't afford all that travel, and frankly it isn't very safe at the moment in places that I am most curious about. I might learn the hard way
paxx: point taken, but my point was that it really makes no difference if the people are brainwashed citizens of a dictatorship or well-read citizens of free countries. As in your example, if you feel strongly about birth control, you can't just ignore the vatican's stance, that is your opposition. You're not suggest that I find out if people hate america by ignoring all the people who hate America are ya? If the silent majority in all these countries are walking around in 'I Love New York' T-Shirts, I'd suggest strongly that they speak up, it could not be more in their best interest at this point in history.
I'm not trying to be rude to you and tinkergaloot, I promise. I'm just not sure where you guys are suggesting people get their information from, if every possible source is suspect. What do I use to discount all the hateful opinions I hear; faith? How do I look into it, if not through soem sort of published media? I can't afford all that travel, and frankly it isn't very safe at the moment in places that I am most curious about. I might learn the hard way
Kinrik
Reply #169 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:05 PM
Reply #169 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:05 PM
anyone watch "Friends"?
Ross: I believe the words you are looking for are, "Sooo, Anyways..."
Can we go skin something already?
Let's go people...move along...nothing to see here...
I bet ya'll didn't even notice that aafuss has a working version of his babya-version-something-or-other, and that Splash! created it for him, and it works fairly well...
Come on now...put the donut down and step back into reality...grab yer skinning gloves and put on the safety helmet and go create something...
Ross: I believe the words you are looking for are, "Sooo, Anyways..."
Can we go skin something already?
Let's go people...move along...nothing to see here...
I bet ya'll didn't even notice that aafuss has a working version of his babya-version-something-or-other, and that Splash! created it for him, and it works fairly well...
Come on now...put the donut down and step back into reality...grab yer skinning gloves and put on the safety helmet and go create something...
bakerstreet
Reply #170 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:12 PM
Reply #170 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:12 PM
Kinrik: this is me taking breaks while skinning. Well, actually right now I am taking a break from writing content for my site ( a review of an H.P. Lovecraft biography ), but I've been skinning... I have a wallpaper I am itching to release, but I wanna wait til my site is up.
I'm just painfully dissatisfied with the apps I am looking at, or I am painfully blind to their possiblities. For God's sake, I am actually desperate enough to be pondering Stardock apps...
Most of us are Doreening our way through the day, I think.
I'm just painfully dissatisfied with the apps I am looking at, or I am painfully blind to their possiblities. For God's sake, I am actually desperate enough to be pondering Stardock apps...
Most of us are Doreening our way through the day, I think.
Kinrik
Reply #171 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:36 PM
Reply #171 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:36 PM
hey, i didn't know you had a site. cool. i'd love to visit if you don't mind...
speaking of seats...i think the toliet seat i have at home was made for a kid. i can barely fit by backside on it, and i'm not a big guy...
now, these ones we have at work...heh...now THERE's industrial strength! fast flushing, large comfortable seating...heck, i could fall asleep if it weren't for the noises, odour, and pipes in my back...
speaking of seats...i think the toliet seat i have at home was made for a kid. i can barely fit by backside on it, and i'm not a big guy...
now, these ones we have at work...heh...now THERE's industrial strength! fast flushing, large comfortable seating...heck, i could fall asleep if it weren't for the noises, odour, and pipes in my back...
paxx
Reply #172 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 3:11 PM
Reply #172 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 3:11 PM
No, bakerstreet, I am not suggesting you stop believing the media. But just watch the media with a critical eye. Also, try not to be selective in what you remember, and try not to let your emotions do the remembering for you. As I said earlier, after 9/11, while they showed those Palestinian dancing, they ALSO showed some other Palestinians crying. I remember the latter quite clearly, as much as I remember the former.
Yes, there are some people who hate Americans. But there are also some people, including arabs and muslims, who love Americans. And as there are some people who don't care one way or the other. Just like there are people who love France, Germany, Italy, and there are people who hate the same countries.
The sad thing in life is that you always hear the more noisy ones more. And usually, the negative ones are the loudest ones. While we see often in the news some people manifesting in the streets with anti-America signs, the sad truth is that although there are some people who love America, they won't go in streets with signs saying it. People criticize easily but sadly rarely compliment.
Yes, there are some people who hate Americans. But there are also some people, including arabs and muslims, who love Americans. And as there are some people who don't care one way or the other. Just like there are people who love France, Germany, Italy, and there are people who hate the same countries.
The sad thing in life is that you always hear the more noisy ones more. And usually, the negative ones are the loudest ones. While we see often in the news some people manifesting in the streets with anti-America signs, the sad truth is that although there are some people who love America, they won't go in streets with signs saying it. People criticize easily but sadly rarely compliment.
Lecrayon
Reply #173 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 3:32 PM
Reply #173 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 3:32 PM
Well sorry not to be on your intellectual level Bakerstreet. You haven't grabbed why I wrote that message about crying and painting flowers though. Guess that was too far from your headspace. A pity you can't lower yourself to my intellectual standard and try to understand what I have meant there. And about not making sense, well same dumb brains of me I guess. I hope you are satisfied in bashing people you can thumb down.
joetheblow
Reply #176 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM
Reply #176 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:25 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/15/international/middleeast/15BAGH.html
The Iraq goverment had a election. One person was on the ballot. Either you voted for him or you didn't. Most people votes for him. What would have happened if they didn't?
The Iraq goverment had a election. One person was on the ballot. Either you voted for him or you didn't. Most people votes for him. What would have happened if they didn't?
bakerstreet
Reply #177 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:27 PM
Reply #177 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:27 PM
paxx:
I think I go as far out of my way as I can to find alternative points of view. I know that some people in all these countries love America, but if their government and most-vocal citizens take an anti-american stance, I can't very well show any support for them out of faith.
I know my original shopping comments irked ya, I'm sorry. If, though, it is in my nation's interest to fly warplanes from point a to point b, and a nation in between says 'no', I am probably not gonna buy what they make. If I have heard the same thing from that same country for 20 years, I'm gonna avoid their section in the store completly.
It sucks for the America-friendly producers there, but what else can I do? I can't vote in European elections, so all I have is my small paycheck and my big mouth. This week I'm in the mood for good Strine Shiraz. It'll probably be a while before I spring for a bottle of Bordeaux or Riesling.
Heck, for that matter, I'd much rather be investing my spending money in Iraq's luxury goods than investing my tax money to bomb them, but they aren't cooperating...
I think I go as far out of my way as I can to find alternative points of view. I know that some people in all these countries love America, but if their government and most-vocal citizens take an anti-american stance, I can't very well show any support for them out of faith.
I know my original shopping comments irked ya, I'm sorry. If, though, it is in my nation's interest to fly warplanes from point a to point b, and a nation in between says 'no', I am probably not gonna buy what they make. If I have heard the same thing from that same country for 20 years, I'm gonna avoid their section in the store completly.
It sucks for the America-friendly producers there, but what else can I do? I can't vote in European elections, so all I have is my small paycheck and my big mouth. This week I'm in the mood for good Strine Shiraz. It'll probably be a while before I spring for a bottle of Bordeaux or Riesling.
Heck, for that matter, I'd much rather be investing my spending money in Iraq's luxury goods than investing my tax money to bomb them, but they aren't cooperating...
joetheblow
Reply #178 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:45 PM
Reply #178 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 4:45 PM
I keep forgetting that the New York Times wants you to sign in before you read the story.
In any case it is really strange that they can have a vote on a presidency and have only one person who can be elected. Who voted the other way? What choice is there if there is only one person?
On another note
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There is a difference between hating America and loving American people. Usually hating America involves, almost exclusivly, foriegn American policies. But if you talk about an American citizen then it is usually good. I would bet that most poeple from other countries know that is you say "American citizen" it could quite literally be a native from your own land or has a history that can be traced to it. What is a American citizen when so many come from so many other countries?
In any case it is really strange that they can have a vote on a presidency and have only one person who can be elected. Who voted the other way? What choice is there if there is only one person?
On another note
-----
There is a difference between hating America and loving American people. Usually hating America involves, almost exclusivly, foriegn American policies. But if you talk about an American citizen then it is usually good. I would bet that most poeple from other countries know that is you say "American citizen" it could quite literally be a native from your own land or has a history that can be traced to it. What is a American citizen when so many come from so many other countries?
Bangkokboy
Reply #179 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 7:09 PM
Reply #179 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 7:09 PM
I must be dropping my marbles, 'cause I've now reached a point where I can read this thread and still smile. I think that I have learned a few things along the way about how opinions on both sides of international issues evolve. paxx has dropped in a few well expressed explanations. Lecrayon has shown again that he has a very great heart. I still believe that it would be a fatal mistake to project our love and reasonableness on the fanatics of the world. As to the jabs that are frequently aimed at America: giving the world a well defined easy target for grousing and griping has always been one of our primary functions in the world. Nothing ever really changes. 
Bangkokboy
Reply #180 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 7:42 PM
Reply #180 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 7:42 PM
The Better Half has hung me on the wall and administered 10 lashes with the cat-o'-nine-tails, for revisiting this thread after I said that I wouldn't. 
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Reply #161 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 12:18 PM