Re Iraq Poll
Tuesday, October 8, 2002 by Fuzzy Logic | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I voted for option 3. However, Saddam should have been sorted out during the gulf war. We had the chance to chop his ass into tiny pieces right then. Problem sorted. Because that route wasn't taken then we have the situation now whereby either action or inaction is unacceptable. Plus the additional suffering caused to the people of Iraq by Saddam over the intervening period since the gulf war and the almost immediate butchering of the Kurds. We really left them with their flies open.
All too late and all too frantic. This is not going to end well for anyone.
All too late and all too frantic. This is not going to end well for anyone.
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paxx
Reply #222 Monday, October 21, 2002 11:16 AM
Reply #222 Monday, October 21, 2002 11:16 AM
I understand attacking Korea would bring a whole lot more casualties than attacking Iraq, on all sides. But North Korea deserves it much more than Iraq does.
If everything I read and saw on TV is true, President Kim makes Saddam Hussein look like an angel. He is right there in the same league as Stalin was.
There is a ridiculous cult around Kim (especially President Kim Senior) and the propaganda department of North Korea works full time trying to elevate him to the God status.
One anecdote I found funny: The propaganda says that when Kim senior was born in a little house in the woods, an inscription magically appeared on a nearby tree predicting how much of a great man was born (the Kim version of the star of Bethleem?). For decades there were tours organized for tourists and pilgrims to go and see the mythical tree and read its prophetic inscription. But one day, when President Kim was about 50 years old, a Japanese botanist took the tour as well, and after examining the tree declared to the giude that the inscription could not possibly have been there 50 years earlier. Seeing the puzzled look in the guide's eyes, he explained: the tree itself is less than 50 years old. Ooops! Hehehe!
The tree was cut down the following days after that incident.
If everything I read and saw on TV is true, President Kim makes Saddam Hussein look like an angel. He is right there in the same league as Stalin was.
There is a ridiculous cult around Kim (especially President Kim Senior) and the propaganda department of North Korea works full time trying to elevate him to the God status.
One anecdote I found funny: The propaganda says that when Kim senior was born in a little house in the woods, an inscription magically appeared on a nearby tree predicting how much of a great man was born (the Kim version of the star of Bethleem?). For decades there were tours organized for tourists and pilgrims to go and see the mythical tree and read its prophetic inscription. But one day, when President Kim was about 50 years old, a Japanese botanist took the tour as well, and after examining the tree declared to the giude that the inscription could not possibly have been there 50 years earlier. Seeing the puzzled look in the guide's eyes, he explained: the tree itself is less than 50 years old. Ooops! Hehehe!
The tree was cut down the following days after that incident.
Bangkokboy
Reply #223 Monday, October 21, 2002 11:23 AM
Reply #223 Monday, October 21, 2002 11:23 AM
Fuzzy L - If we invaded a neighboring country and stayed there several hundred years to their economic and political detriment, I would not be surprised if there arose a strong underground terrorist countermovement. (Particularly if I had disarmed and rendered vulnerable and helpless this people). Don't saddle us with Ireland. It's your mess - you clean it up. You're all very quick to point out when we try to drag other people into a mess that we created, and in some cases rightly so. Drop the hypocrisy and don't drag us into your messes.
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #224 Monday, October 21, 2002 1:57 PM
Reply #224 Monday, October 21, 2002 1:57 PM
As usual you have a total cross-eyed view of the Irish situation. Those people are butchering each other not us. It's a religious war - protestant v catholic and has nothing to do with politics. Take the recent event of children not being able to go to school because walking through a different religion's estate led to guns being fired at them. Explain that... Don't forget, these are all Irish people, from the same town even. Imagine living somewhere, where the people on one side of the road hate the people on the other side of the road - two irreconcilable views.
US people seem to have a highly distorted rosey-eyed view of the Irish situation. Wake up.
...If we invaded a neighboring country and stayed there several hundred years to their economic and political detriment, I would not be surprised if there arose a strong underground terrorist countermovement. (Particularly if I had disarmed and rendered vulnerable and helpless this people).
I'm confused...are you by any chance talking about Native Americans...what an astounding record on human rights your country has, you must be so proud
US people seem to have a highly distorted rosey-eyed view of the Irish situation. Wake up.
...If we invaded a neighboring country and stayed there several hundred years to their economic and political detriment, I would not be surprised if there arose a strong underground terrorist countermovement. (Particularly if I had disarmed and rendered vulnerable and helpless this people).
I'm confused...are you by any chance talking about Native Americans...what an astounding record on human rights your country has, you must be so proud
Bangkokboy
Reply #225 Monday, October 21, 2002 2:48 PM
Reply #225 Monday, October 21, 2002 2:48 PM
It was England who originally invaded and occupied the territoy of the Native Americans I believe. 
I really don't have a rosey view of the Irish situation, and I know that the portions of the FBI and other agencies tasked to stop IRA monetary support arising in the US have been traditionally given short shrift in money, manpower, and priority, which is a shame. Terrorism is terrorism.
I really don't have a rosey view of the Irish situation, and I know that the portions of the FBI and other agencies tasked to stop IRA monetary support arising in the US have been traditionally given short shrift in money, manpower, and priority, which is a shame. Terrorism is terrorism.
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #226 Monday, October 21, 2002 3:10 PM
Reply #226 Monday, October 21, 2002 3:10 PM
As you say. Terrorism is terrorism. Whatever the provocation it is unacceptable and all countries need to work together to stop this happening. That's what the UN is supposed to be for, but it seems a little limp right now. And whatever you think of England don't forget when the fight starts our forces will be the first in. We might be a small nation these days but we're not weak and we don't shirk our international responsibility as some countries do. We don't want war, but will do what is required.
As for English history...we recently had to apologise to an African nation for what happened two hundred years ago. Maybe we should ask the Italians to apologise for what the Romans did here? See what happens when you try to apportion blame - it never ends. So who is going to apologise for wiping out the Neanderthals?
Actually, the Neanderthals never died out - they just moved to Leeds...
(If you're not from here, you won't get that joke...)
As for English history...we recently had to apologise to an African nation for what happened two hundred years ago. Maybe we should ask the Italians to apologise for what the Romans did here? See what happens when you try to apportion blame - it never ends. So who is going to apologise for wiping out the Neanderthals?
Actually, the Neanderthals never died out - they just moved to Leeds...
(If you're not from here, you won't get that joke...)
Bangkokboy
Reply #227 Monday, October 21, 2002 4:09 PM
Reply #227 Monday, October 21, 2002 4:09 PM
Fuzzy dodges an intense barrage of flying "wellies".
wombat_1
Reply #228 Monday, October 21, 2002 5:41 PM
Reply #228 Monday, October 21, 2002 5:41 PM
bakerstreet ..... if you regard CNN as a source of 'historical information' you are in serious trouble.
The points I make in my previous (and final post!) are facts, not "news".
You appear to have a problem linking cause and effect.
Who knows what the outcome of the Iran-Iraq War would have been if the US had realised that Khomeni was more concerned with destroying the greater of two evils (in Iranian eyes) and stepped back, and to make that clear, Iraq is and remains a greater enemy of Iran than the US.
In '87 the USS Stark was hit by two Exocets fired from an Iraqi Mirage, within 24 hours it was accepted by the US Administration as an 'accident', despite clear evidence it was not!
Government policy (in all countries) is one of convenience when it comes to oil.
The second Gulf War had NOTHING to do with 'liberating' Kuwait and everything to do with ensuring the continued supply of oil to the West, once the fires were out and the dust settled, the same old repressive regimes returned to their pre-war pampered and overpriveliged lives.
Women remain (I'm generalising here) second class citizens who are often excluded from education and can be executed by stoning on the basis of an accusation of misconduct, the wealthy are incredibly wealthy and the poor are shockingly so, Western technology is received as a matter of course but Westerners are treated with hostility to a greater or lesser degree depending on time and place.
The one point you seem to really miss re "your" (qv) "Allies" standing in the way of US (or US led) intervention is that it is not the UN, NATO or the Russians playing hard ball.
The Arab (generalistion again) Nations do not want any 'assistance' at this point in time.
Period.
I do find the cold war 'fading from memory' 1)offensive and 2)juvenile from one who has exhibited a remarkable capacity for selective memory, the final outcome of which appears to have escaped you.
The remains of the Soviet Union are now far more dangerous than the whole, not simply in a military sense but more to the point, an ecological nightmare waiting to happen.
For the large part of the population of the former Soviet Union, the economic nightmare has been a reality for over 10 years.
The person killing people around Washington is a 'jester'?????
I wouldn't use that term at all .... not even in a fit of pique!
Paxx, NO country 'deserves' to be nuked.
As for the cult of power status awarded to leaders of totalitarian states, agreed.
It's not new, and I'll risk the inevitable flames by saying the US electoral process (as do most) thrives on electing a national compere on 'personality' rather than policy.
I include my own country BTW.
Fuzzy, BB, the 'Jonathan Institute' has a reasonable definition of 'Terrorism' as such, like all definitives we can find glaring holes in it, however, the basics are reasonable enough.
Thak you umpires, thank you lines-men, thank you ball-boys.(political incorrectness reigns)
The points I make in my previous (and final post!) are facts, not "news".
You appear to have a problem linking cause and effect.
Who knows what the outcome of the Iran-Iraq War would have been if the US had realised that Khomeni was more concerned with destroying the greater of two evils (in Iranian eyes) and stepped back, and to make that clear, Iraq is and remains a greater enemy of Iran than the US.
In '87 the USS Stark was hit by two Exocets fired from an Iraqi Mirage, within 24 hours it was accepted by the US Administration as an 'accident', despite clear evidence it was not!
Government policy (in all countries) is one of convenience when it comes to oil.
The second Gulf War had NOTHING to do with 'liberating' Kuwait and everything to do with ensuring the continued supply of oil to the West, once the fires were out and the dust settled, the same old repressive regimes returned to their pre-war pampered and overpriveliged lives.
Women remain (I'm generalising here) second class citizens who are often excluded from education and can be executed by stoning on the basis of an accusation of misconduct, the wealthy are incredibly wealthy and the poor are shockingly so, Western technology is received as a matter of course but Westerners are treated with hostility to a greater or lesser degree depending on time and place.
The one point you seem to really miss re "your" (qv) "Allies" standing in the way of US (or US led) intervention is that it is not the UN, NATO or the Russians playing hard ball.
The Arab (generalistion again) Nations do not want any 'assistance' at this point in time.
Period.
I do find the cold war 'fading from memory' 1)offensive and 2)juvenile from one who has exhibited a remarkable capacity for selective memory, the final outcome of which appears to have escaped you.
The remains of the Soviet Union are now far more dangerous than the whole, not simply in a military sense but more to the point, an ecological nightmare waiting to happen.
For the large part of the population of the former Soviet Union, the economic nightmare has been a reality for over 10 years.
The person killing people around Washington is a 'jester'?????
I wouldn't use that term at all .... not even in a fit of pique!
Paxx, NO country 'deserves' to be nuked.
As for the cult of power status awarded to leaders of totalitarian states, agreed.
It's not new, and I'll risk the inevitable flames by saying the US electoral process (as do most) thrives on electing a national compere on 'personality' rather than policy.
I include my own country BTW.
Fuzzy, BB, the 'Jonathan Institute' has a reasonable definition of 'Terrorism' as such, like all definitives we can find glaring holes in it, however, the basics are reasonable enough.
Thak you umpires, thank you lines-men, thank you ball-boys.(political incorrectness reigns)
Frogboy
Reply #229 Monday, October 21, 2002 6:06 PM
Reply #229 Monday, October 21, 2002 6:06 PM
World War II had nothing to do with liberating France, it was about securing French wine and cheese.
The Korean war wasn't about freeing South Korea, it was about ensuring the steady flow of cheap South Korean rice.
There were a lot of reasons to free Kuwait. Oil was certainly high up there. But to trivialize it as a grab for oil is to ignore history. You can always, if you look hard enough, a self interested reason for doing something.
The Korean war wasn't about freeing South Korea, it was about ensuring the steady flow of cheap South Korean rice.
There were a lot of reasons to free Kuwait. Oil was certainly high up there. But to trivialize it as a grab for oil is to ignore history. You can always, if you look hard enough, a self interested reason for doing something.
moshi
Reply #230 Monday, October 21, 2002 6:12 PM
Reply #230 Monday, October 21, 2002 6:12 PM
"if you regard CNN as a source of 'historical information' you are in serious trouble."
hehe, very true i can see CNN and CNBC (FoxNews is gone, was the most amusing one). sometimes it makes me think even Soviet Russia had a more critical media.
hehe, very true i can see CNN and CNBC (FoxNews is gone, was the most amusing one). sometimes it makes me think even Soviet Russia had a more critical media.
Jafo
Reply #231 Monday, October 21, 2002 6:59 PM
Reply #231 Monday, October 21, 2002 6:59 PM
wombat....you CANNOT be an Aussie....saying we chose our leader on 'personality'....good grief, Little Johnnie, [Cardigan Man], [Mister Sheen], call him what you will, is but a Dork.
Back when Clinton was doing new and interesting things with a cigar, Howard would probably have just smoked it...
Back when Clinton was doing new and interesting things with a cigar, Howard would probably have just smoked it...
Bangkokboy
Reply #232 Monday, October 21, 2002 7:40 PM
Reply #232 Monday, October 21, 2002 7:40 PM
Two points:
Powerful and wealthy groups live pampered, overprivileged lives in every country of the world. Kuwaiti leaders didn't invent this phenomenon.
Many of those whom we might consider downtrodden and repressed do not view themselves that way at all, and they are very quick to straighten out those who would hope to "save" them from the "terrible oppression".
The US was invited to Kuwait to move the Iraqis back to Iraq. We never received any invitations to remodel the cultural institutions while doing the former. We went, did what we were invited in to do, and didn't do what we were not invited to do.
Oops. OK three.
Powerful and wealthy groups live pampered, overprivileged lives in every country of the world. Kuwaiti leaders didn't invent this phenomenon.
Many of those whom we might consider downtrodden and repressed do not view themselves that way at all, and they are very quick to straighten out those who would hope to "save" them from the "terrible oppression".
The US was invited to Kuwait to move the Iraqis back to Iraq. We never received any invitations to remodel the cultural institutions while doing the former. We went, did what we were invited in to do, and didn't do what we were not invited to do.
Oops. OK three.
bakerstreet
Reply #233 Monday, October 21, 2002 8:05 PM
Reply #233 Monday, October 21, 2002 8:05 PM
wombat:
When I used the word 'jester' I was referring to Lecrayon, and his statements about the sniper that *you* seemed to offer justification for by listing assassinated leaders of my country.
I had a friend who was in the Gulf at the time of the Stark incident. I also seem to remember the USS Vincenes shooting down a Iranian airbus with 300 passengers a few years back. What sort of conspiracy could you attach to that? Did we want the scrap metal, or the jet fuel? Maybe they were really aliens...
everyone in general:
All I needed to know I learned on this messageboard
****************************************************
-I am not supposed to believe the press, and I am definately not supposed to believe the government, and that history is written by the oppressor, so it is false as well.
-We have been brainwashed by the US government, and that we subliminally yearn for the natural resources of every country on earth, and that is why we do *everything* that we do. Even your DIRT isn't safe.
-America has simultaneously butted into, and shirked our responsibility for, every major event in the last 240 years, and maybe even a couple before we existed.
- The Rules state that if you attack one bad guy, you have to attack them all, and if you do, you are bigoted because your idea of 'bad' is based on all that false information you shouldn't have believed in the first place.
-The only way to have any any integrity as a nation is to aspire to be nothing, since whatever you are aspiring to be won't *really* be what you are aspiring to be. Beyond that, you gripe a lot and do your best to know nothing at all, lest you be misled.
-When you finally have to go to war, you are evil. That said, make sure that everyone understands that they will never understand why it happened, and that only you will, and you will only educate them by disagreeing with everything they say. If they are good enough at binary mathmatics, they can divine all they need to know simply by adding all the 'false' answers.
This time I think I have built up the strength to avoid this insipid thread. I will consider it an awful, personal weakness if I fold and post again, anyway. I am gonna go and paint some lillies.
When I used the word 'jester' I was referring to Lecrayon, and his statements about the sniper that *you* seemed to offer justification for by listing assassinated leaders of my country.
I had a friend who was in the Gulf at the time of the Stark incident. I also seem to remember the USS Vincenes shooting down a Iranian airbus with 300 passengers a few years back. What sort of conspiracy could you attach to that? Did we want the scrap metal, or the jet fuel? Maybe they were really aliens...
everyone in general:
All I needed to know I learned on this messageboard
****************************************************
-I am not supposed to believe the press, and I am definately not supposed to believe the government, and that history is written by the oppressor, so it is false as well.
-We have been brainwashed by the US government, and that we subliminally yearn for the natural resources of every country on earth, and that is why we do *everything* that we do. Even your DIRT isn't safe.
-America has simultaneously butted into, and shirked our responsibility for, every major event in the last 240 years, and maybe even a couple before we existed.
- The Rules state that if you attack one bad guy, you have to attack them all, and if you do, you are bigoted because your idea of 'bad' is based on all that false information you shouldn't have believed in the first place.
-The only way to have any any integrity as a nation is to aspire to be nothing, since whatever you are aspiring to be won't *really* be what you are aspiring to be. Beyond that, you gripe a lot and do your best to know nothing at all, lest you be misled.
-When you finally have to go to war, you are evil. That said, make sure that everyone understands that they will never understand why it happened, and that only you will, and you will only educate them by disagreeing with everything they say. If they are good enough at binary mathmatics, they can divine all they need to know simply by adding all the 'false' answers.
This time I think I have built up the strength to avoid this insipid thread. I will consider it an awful, personal weakness if I fold and post again, anyway. I am gonna go and paint some lillies.
joetheblow
Reply #234 Monday, October 21, 2002 8:06 PM
Reply #234 Monday, October 21, 2002 8:06 PM
I love this site!!! We can talk about skinning, politics, NEVER religion, and why bra's are evil. Then we can talk about life in the fast lane or how pink is the best color ever made. Talk about science and art. A little history; then back to skinning.
I think as someone who is and has been part of the art community for a while, it is nice to see that artist have a opinion on something and poke thier heads out of the computer/canvas/drafting board to see what is happening in the world.
joetheblow throws a 'wellies' at Fuzzy but does not know what it is
I think as someone who is and has been part of the art community for a while, it is nice to see that artist have a opinion on something and poke thier heads out of the computer/canvas/drafting board to see what is happening in the world.
joetheblow throws a 'wellies' at Fuzzy but does not know what it is
Bangkokboy
Reply #235 Monday, October 21, 2002 8:21 PM
Reply #235 Monday, October 21, 2002 8:21 PM
hobnailed Wellington boot. It's a sport, or martial art, or some such. 
joetheblow
Reply #236 Monday, October 21, 2002 8:30 PM
Reply #236 Monday, October 21, 2002 8:30 PM
-I am not supposed to believe the press, and I am definately not supposed to believe the government, and that history is written by the oppressor, so it is false as well.
Now your getting it!! We all have to be critical thinkers and come to are own conclusion based on what we see and hear as evedence. Then be opn enough to hear oppossing opinions.
If my friend who is an accountant gives me 50 Dollars in cash in 5's, as much as he is an authority in money and I trust him, I am still going to count my money. He could have made a mistake, or whatever; who cares, I know I have my 50 Dollars because I counted it.
Now your getting it!! We all have to be critical thinkers and come to are own conclusion based on what we see and hear as evedence. Then be opn enough to hear oppossing opinions.
If my friend who is an accountant gives me 50 Dollars in cash in 5's, as much as he is an authority in money and I trust him, I am still going to count my money. He could have made a mistake, or whatever; who cares, I know I have my 50 Dollars because I counted it.
Jafo
Reply #237 Monday, October 21, 2002 8:41 PM
Reply #237 Monday, October 21, 2002 8:41 PM
Believe NOTHING of what you hear, and only HALF of what you see.
Good luck on choosing the 'right' half.
And remember, it is better to be a pessimist than an optimist.
An optimist can always be disappointed, but a pessimist 'may' be pleasantly surprised...
Good luck on choosing the 'right' half.
And remember, it is better to be a pessimist than an optimist.
An optimist can always be disappointed, but a pessimist 'may' be pleasantly surprised...
joetheblow
Reply #238 Monday, October 21, 2002 8:42 PM
Reply #238 Monday, October 21, 2002 8:42 PM
Oh and by the way (BTW) I can't answer the other points bakerstreet made other than to say that there will always be someone who has the wrong infomation. There will always be a story believed more than a fact.
Right now there are beliefs that have some infomation and the rest is a story from the 'streets'. The news and goverment is never really understood until your actively apart of it and even then you can come up with some irreguarities.
WWII was about wine and cheese? Never heard that.
Civil War was about slavery? Or was it about not letting a part of the nation leave?
As I said (written) before, I can not think of any war that happened because of human suffering. It usually happens when there is an economical impact. The other reasons usually fall behind in importance for numerous reasons not just greed (human suffering has always been a complicated issue when it come to national affairs.)
I got to go study... crazy amounts of tests this week...
Right now there are beliefs that have some infomation and the rest is a story from the 'streets'. The news and goverment is never really understood until your actively apart of it and even then you can come up with some irreguarities.
WWII was about wine and cheese? Never heard that.
Civil War was about slavery? Or was it about not letting a part of the nation leave?
As I said (written) before, I can not think of any war that happened because of human suffering. It usually happens when there is an economical impact. The other reasons usually fall behind in importance for numerous reasons not just greed (human suffering has always been a complicated issue when it come to national affairs.)
I got to go study... crazy amounts of tests this week...
paxx
Reply #239 Monday, October 21, 2002 9:46 PM
Seriously though. When in doubt whether a war was caused by money or by ideology, most likely it was the former.
I had a history teacher in college who used to say that no war in history was EVER fought because of religion or ideology. Always for money and power. Include the infamous crusades to (ahem) "deliver" Jerusalem.
Some wars involved spices, some wars involved gold, some wars involved trading routes and sea ways, some wars involved oil. Or some wars just involved an infinite apetite for power and domination - which in the end also boils down to more money.
It's all nice and comforting to speak of ideology, to think we fight for freedom and democracy. But the sad thing is our leaders don't give a hoot about it unless it brings something back to them. In other words, our leaders are not some much worried about democracy in foreign countries as much as they are interested in free commerce, therefore opening a new markets to the McDonald's, Walmart and Microsofts of our World. Money talks again. Not ideals.
Of course, in front of the TV, in their Speech to the Nation, that is certainly not what they tell us. No they call the sensitive fibers in us. Our politicians try to convince us that we need to send our troops there because it is our responsibility to defend democracy and freedom in the World, and yada yada yada... Sorry Jack. Koweit is no more a democracy than Irak is. It's just richer. Would it really have been the same if Irak had invaded Jordan for example? Much more a democracy than Koweit, but unfortunatly very very poor. Of course not.
Wombat: very nice post. And I agree, no country deserves to be nuked. Except North Korea scares me. I wouldn't be surprised it tries to invade South Korea soon.
Reply #239 Monday, October 21, 2002 9:46 PM
Seriously though. When in doubt whether a war was caused by money or by ideology, most likely it was the former.
I had a history teacher in college who used to say that no war in history was EVER fought because of religion or ideology. Always for money and power. Include the infamous crusades to (ahem) "deliver" Jerusalem.
Some wars involved spices, some wars involved gold, some wars involved trading routes and sea ways, some wars involved oil. Or some wars just involved an infinite apetite for power and domination - which in the end also boils down to more money.
It's all nice and comforting to speak of ideology, to think we fight for freedom and democracy. But the sad thing is our leaders don't give a hoot about it unless it brings something back to them. In other words, our leaders are not some much worried about democracy in foreign countries as much as they are interested in free commerce, therefore opening a new markets to the McDonald's, Walmart and Microsofts of our World. Money talks again. Not ideals.
Of course, in front of the TV, in their Speech to the Nation, that is certainly not what they tell us. No they call the sensitive fibers in us. Our politicians try to convince us that we need to send our troops there because it is our responsibility to defend democracy and freedom in the World, and yada yada yada... Sorry Jack. Koweit is no more a democracy than Irak is. It's just richer. Would it really have been the same if Irak had invaded Jordan for example? Much more a democracy than Koweit, but unfortunatly very very poor. Of course not.
Wombat: very nice post. And I agree, no country deserves to be nuked. Except North Korea scares me. I wouldn't be surprised it tries to invade South Korea soon.
Lecrayon
Reply #240 Tuesday, October 22, 2002 4:29 AM
Reply #240 Tuesday, October 22, 2002 4:29 AM
Pax: speech out of my heart.
Joe: your positivism is a blessing to this site.
Wombat: very good points made. I am glad you are able to put history in its real context.
Joe: your positivism is a blessing to this site.
Wombat: very good points made. I am glad you are able to put history in its real context.
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Reply #221 Monday, October 21, 2002 10:06 AM
As far as 1980's Iran/Iraq, the history books aren't necessary considering we are reminded by every Arab pundit on CNN. Somehow, in the post-Carter era, the oil producing (read: wielding) middle east became, um, confused? I seem to remember a fuel shortage at one point in our history. Do you think, perhaps, a friendly Iraq, and its proximity to the Kuwaiti border was of any benefit? If there were unforseen consequenses, we'd be happy to fix them, if our 'allies' would kindly step out if the way.
Or perhaps we should have allowed the Soviet Union to play both sides of every conflict, making billions on arms and a bevy of oil-rich, Syria clones? I don't remember seeing much of a 'coalition' at the time, regardless. Afghanistan was an opportunity to watch our cold-war opposition bleed themselves to death; a cold war that sadly seems to be fading from the collective memory at 'strategic' moments in conversation.
BTW, the general consensus here is that all those you listed were Great Men, and frankly I don't see how citing previous tragedy is any benefit to the current jester.
Fuzzy: one problem with the IRA is that the population they support are being terrorized by an opposing force, who are just easier to ignore since they don't have an agreed upon name. Most recent terrorism in Ireland has beenof the protestant variety. I don't think anyone has ignored IRA violence anymore than they have ignored Palestinian violence in Isreal; both are occupied nations with unruly militant settlers. I think the UK made a mistake allowing them to officially exist, but only after the historical mistake of forcefully oppressing the Irish people.