Re Iraq Poll
Tuesday, October 8, 2002 by Fuzzy Logic | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I voted for option 3. However, Saddam should have been sorted out during the gulf war. We had the chance to chop his ass into tiny pieces right then. Problem sorted. Because that route wasn't taken then we have the situation now whereby either action or inaction is unacceptable. Plus the additional suffering caused to the people of Iraq by Saddam over the intervening period since the gulf war and the almost immediate butchering of the Kurds. We really left them with their flies open.
All too late and all too frantic. This is not going to end well for anyone.
All too late and all too frantic. This is not going to end well for anyone.
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Peff
Reply #202 Sunday, October 20, 2002 6:35 PM
Reply #202 Sunday, October 20, 2002 6:35 PM
LeCrayon...why don't you have a talk with your parents (or grandparents) about how it was like during the Nazi occupation of Holland. Ask them how the pacificts (who tossed flowers at the on-comming tanks) fared during that confrontation. Also...make a short trip to Bosnia and ask the innocent civillians (Serbs or otherwise) how conforting it was knowing they were pacifists while they watched their families being mercilessly 'cleansed'. Grow up!!. Someone made the comment that there has been no peace since WWII. Well, I've got news for you....there was never any lasting peace before that. Ever since the first cave man clubbed his/her rival, there has been no peace....and unfortunately until you successfully colonize the outer planets and establish a truly peaceful society, there won't be any.
Don't get me wrong. I would love to live in a society where my children had no fears (other than falling while playing), but it ain't gonna happen anytime soon....as long as (and here it comes) organized religion exists.
I do admire your positive/loving attitude (and I truly wish you could have your way). Bless you!! Sadly, you live in a world that cares very little about love. 75% of the flower children from the 60's and 70's are now lawyers - screwing individuals for the sake of large corporations (hardly a verifiable statistic, I know).
I admire both your intellect and your heart.
Stefan
Don't get me wrong. I would love to live in a society where my children had no fears (other than falling while playing), but it ain't gonna happen anytime soon....as long as (and here it comes) organized religion exists.
I do admire your positive/loving attitude (and I truly wish you could have your way). Bless you!! Sadly, you live in a world that cares very little about love. 75% of the flower children from the 60's and 70's are now lawyers - screwing individuals for the sake of large corporations (hardly a verifiable statistic, I know).
I admire both your intellect and your heart.
Stefan
Lecrayon
Reply #203 Sunday, October 20, 2002 6:54 PM
Reply #203 Sunday, October 20, 2002 6:54 PM
Peff, my sadness is that masses are grown up where hatred towards people is taught in schools. If anything is a justification for an attack, then this would be against those who spread hatred. We have an obligation to teach people that people can live in peace with one another. During the civil/faith war in Ireland we invited children of both faiths in Holland just to meet each other. Those kids found out they shouldn't have to be afraid for each other. Now that's so sad hatred has been indoctrined at such an age. The same in Israel/Palestine, markets were held at the borders and normal people could very well trade with each other. Until a leader called upon a new Jihad, and the other one saw his chance to smack around killing kids. And the people are filled with more hatred each time any one of them dies because of violence. Same in Bosnia. People became enemies from one day to the next. Only because hatred was poored into them from leaders. It's not so much because of the people in a country that suddenly want to grab arms, it is what they are taught how to act and think. We have a great opportunity in this world because of the massmedia to teach people, but instead we are seeking enemies. I understand fully your position Peff and I was in favour of attacking the former republic of Yugoslavia. Only the time they went in was way too late and the evil could spread and harm was done. The sad part is that the people who initiated the hatred are still at loose. And they could be easily chased and captured and brought to justice. Now if I only understood why those efforts aren't made. Osama, Saddam, Karadzic, Mladic are still at large and able to spread evil. That's our world. Somehow they are necessary in the game of powerful people.
paxx
Reply #204 Sunday, October 20, 2002 7:06 PM
Reply #204 Sunday, October 20, 2002 7:06 PM
Peff, meaning if you're an Arab saying all the Middle-East should be wipped out, then I'm the Queen of England saying monarchy should be abolished.
Peff
Reply #206 Sunday, October 20, 2002 7:15 PM
Reply #206 Sunday, October 20, 2002 7:15 PM
I was indeed born and raised (for the most part) in North Africa....noone said i was an arab... British (idealist) father and berber (touareg) mother (it is deemed wise to never call a berber an arab, FYI).
Peff
Reply #207 Sunday, October 20, 2002 7:21 PM
Reply #207 Sunday, October 20, 2002 7:21 PM
As for monarchies...Are you referring to that old woman that continuously leaves her crack pipe around setting fire to her palaces? If she's a monarch, then Elvis truly was the King!!! 
bakerstreet
Reply #210 Sunday, October 20, 2002 8:17 PM
Reply #210 Sunday, October 20, 2002 8:17 PM
Lecrayon: After what you said about the sniper, I have neither respect for you, nor kindship with you. I consider it a bannable statement, actually. You just publically wished that someone would kill people, leaders, in my nation. You degrade the people here who have lost their lives, and you discount the care we have as Americans for our leaders, WHO, I may add are our relatives, friends, and countrymen.
That is the kind of peace we get from people like you, irresponsible, totalitarian, oppressive peace. I think the world sees that what you call peace is simply self-interest. I had honestly granted you far too much respect. Best of luck to you, but I cannot stand to read your posts from here on, so you need not address me in them.
That is the kind of peace we get from people like you, irresponsible, totalitarian, oppressive peace. I think the world sees that what you call peace is simply self-interest. I had honestly granted you far too much respect. Best of luck to you, but I cannot stand to read your posts from here on, so you need not address me in them.
Jafo
Reply #211 Sunday, October 20, 2002 10:02 PM
Reply #211 Sunday, October 20, 2002 10:02 PM
I still remember those Froggie secret service people sinking the Rainbow Warrior in a foreign port....I' d still call that an act of war against both New Zealand, and a Legitimate International Civil Rights Establishment.
That was Government-endorsed Terrorism.
Thanks, France....
That was Government-endorsed Terrorism.
Thanks, France....
paxx
Reply #212 Sunday, October 20, 2002 10:18 PM
Reply #212 Sunday, October 20, 2002 10:18 PM
I understand the difference Peff between an Arab and a Berber. Sorry for assuming you were an Arab.
I still find it strange that a person of your origins harbour so little respect from the people of the Middle East. Culturally, economically and religiously, Berbers and Arabs have shared enourmously for the past centuries.
I am French of origins, and traditionally the English have been the ennemy for centuries. Yet, I feel close to the English and the Americans and the English Canadians (former English colonies). And never could I even dare to even start thinking of wishing them wipped out. I would actually never wish anybody be wipped out, but especailly not anybody that is culturally so close, although as much different as French and English is.
If you indeed are the son of a Berber woman and an idealist Englishman, and if indeed you tasted the poverty of North Africa, if indeed you knew modesty when you were a child; if indeed all this is true, then it's sad to see how much it seems you've changed and have become quite different from where you come from.
I still find it strange that a person of your origins harbour so little respect from the people of the Middle East. Culturally, economically and religiously, Berbers and Arabs have shared enourmously for the past centuries.
I am French of origins, and traditionally the English have been the ennemy for centuries. Yet, I feel close to the English and the Americans and the English Canadians (former English colonies). And never could I even dare to even start thinking of wishing them wipped out. I would actually never wish anybody be wipped out, but especailly not anybody that is culturally so close, although as much different as French and English is.
If you indeed are the son of a Berber woman and an idealist Englishman, and if indeed you tasted the poverty of North Africa, if indeed you knew modesty when you were a child; if indeed all this is true, then it's sad to see how much it seems you've changed and have become quite different from where you come from.
joetheblow
Reply #213 Sunday, October 20, 2002 11:28 PM
Reply #213 Sunday, October 20, 2002 11:28 PM
OH NOOOOOOO orginized religion!! Lets not go there 
I don't like bombing countries either Lecrayon. I really don't. It is what happens when if we don't that scares me more. If Saddam where to uptain Nuclear capability it would be a major downfall for any type of peace. As much as I agree with Peff that N. Korea posses a greater threat to anyone, I do not feel that N. Korea would actually do anything because they would be elimitated. I think they are using the fact that they have Nuclear power to get something (probably food and a economy not start a war) Dealing with N. Korea has to be a diplomatic because anything else could mean a definate death of millions of people through a war; no question (Iraq has no way of even coming close to that unless the fighting spread through out the region)Those 1 Million soldiers and plenty of missile power means more civilians dying in Japan, China, and South Korea (and other parts) when N. Korea is attacked. It means thousands of our soldiers dying. N. Korea would be a total World War. Iraq on the other hand would be a squrmish compared to N Korea. Keep in mind also that mainly Iraq posses a threat that can be managed through a war if all else fails. As sad as it sounds Iraq is not powerful enough to do what ever it wants to. It is like a double standard, but I rather have a stable country have power like Britain or France or Italy, Germany, US, even China then have a country like Iraq have that power.
The bottom line is this, North Korea has power and is stable enough not to push the international community past the point. It will continue on with its human right violations (I do not think human right violations ever causeed any country to go to war) and give in to pressure so it won't get blown sky high.
Iraq does not have the power and is increadibaly unstable. If it where to get the power and become more extreme it would gladly give an organized group the power to deliver a bomb.
oh and I think Lecrayon comment was that the sniper should target the Osama's, Saddam's, Karadzic's (I don't know what he did please elaberate), Mladic's (I don't know what he did please elaberate), Hitler's, Timmothy Mc Bay's and others who only wish is to spread extreme values on people, cause the war, and yet excape to an island in the Caribian to live happily ever after while hate and ignorance of thier ideas has spread.
I don't like bombing countries either Lecrayon. I really don't. It is what happens when if we don't that scares me more. If Saddam where to uptain Nuclear capability it would be a major downfall for any type of peace. As much as I agree with Peff that N. Korea posses a greater threat to anyone, I do not feel that N. Korea would actually do anything because they would be elimitated. I think they are using the fact that they have Nuclear power to get something (probably food and a economy not start a war) Dealing with N. Korea has to be a diplomatic because anything else could mean a definate death of millions of people through a war; no question (Iraq has no way of even coming close to that unless the fighting spread through out the region)Those 1 Million soldiers and plenty of missile power means more civilians dying in Japan, China, and South Korea (and other parts) when N. Korea is attacked. It means thousands of our soldiers dying. N. Korea would be a total World War. Iraq on the other hand would be a squrmish compared to N Korea. Keep in mind also that mainly Iraq posses a threat that can be managed through a war if all else fails. As sad as it sounds Iraq is not powerful enough to do what ever it wants to. It is like a double standard, but I rather have a stable country have power like Britain or France or Italy, Germany, US, even China then have a country like Iraq have that power.
The bottom line is this, North Korea has power and is stable enough not to push the international community past the point. It will continue on with its human right violations (I do not think human right violations ever causeed any country to go to war) and give in to pressure so it won't get blown sky high.
Iraq does not have the power and is increadibaly unstable. If it where to get the power and become more extreme it would gladly give an organized group the power to deliver a bomb.
oh and I think Lecrayon comment was that the sniper should target the Osama's, Saddam's, Karadzic's (I don't know what he did please elaberate), Mladic's (I don't know what he did please elaberate), Hitler's, Timmothy Mc Bay's and others who only wish is to spread extreme values on people, cause the war, and yet excape to an island in the Caribian to live happily ever after while hate and ignorance of thier ideas has spread.
bakerstreet
Reply #214 Sunday, October 20, 2002 11:58 PM
Reply #214 Sunday, October 20, 2002 11:58 PM
Joe: I can't seem to force that statement into any other context than wishing harm on the leaders of the US. The conversation at that time was in no way touching on the people you mention, rather N.Korea's newfound nuke program and the possible US response to it as compared to our attitude to Iraq. Later the conversation turned, but his 10/20/2002 6:07:01 PM message seems utterly belligerent to me.
IF he has done that poorly at getting his point across, I hope he clarifies himself, but I see no other interpretation. I appreciate your overture, and perhaps he'll find the good sense to prove you right *cough*, regardless of the original meaning of his message.
IF he has done that poorly at getting his point across, I hope he clarifies himself, but I see no other interpretation. I appreciate your overture, and perhaps he'll find the good sense to prove you right *cough*, regardless of the original meaning of his message.
wombat_1
Reply #216 Monday, October 21, 2002 4:07 AM
Reply #216 Monday, October 21, 2002 4:07 AM
Bakerstreet, a few names that spring to mind ... Abraham Lincoln, John Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Ronald Reagan .... plus several who escape me at this point.
Not all elected to lead the US and not all great men, but all targeted by 'loving caring Americans'???
Joe, North Korea are incapable of mounting an attack on anyone right now, their multi-million man 'standing army' is barely surviving, the civilians are not even doing that well, and the 'leadership' are off in the twilight zone.
China are more concerned with their acceptance into the West on commercial grounds and a growing economy on one hand, while the promise of cultural acceptance via the Olympic Games is a huge priority.
Don't forget, the NVA soundly belted PRA several times when the Chinese attempted to move into Vietnam.
You want flashpoints and hotspots?
This weeks chartoppers ... #1, Israel v Israeli Factions! Closely followed by India v Pakistan.
Jafo, looking forward to viewing PI, its all on tape, tapping this out on my way back from Canberra after 4 days hard slog!
Provided the 'Grace L Fergusson Stormdoor and Airline Company' can make it into Tullamarine of course.
Bloody airline monopolies ....... >
The 'Rainbow Warrior' incident .... if it wasn't for the fact that they managed to kill a person it would be the stuff of Inspector Clouseau. (I stand ready to be corrected)
And then it was a farce, the operatives were returned and promptly dropped out of sight.
A few thoughts for the 'strategists' to contemplate.
Shutting off a nation's oil supply is exactly what precipitated Pearl Harbour.
OK, it was a large contributing factor.... part of the overall process.
During the Iran/Iraq War the US allied itself with Iraq, even flying air support and engaging with Iranian Naval units in combat.....aside from supplying arms and munitions in large quantities.
Then we have the cruiser with an Airbus 'kill' on its scoresheet, a civilian airliner no less.
When the Soviet Union (sic) invaded Afghanistan, their opposition were supplied and supported by the US .... the principle of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a double edged and very sharp sword.
Remember the name "Oliver North"?
Perhaps re-reading a little history might be a good move, people who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over ..... and over.
Not all elected to lead the US and not all great men, but all targeted by 'loving caring Americans'???
Joe, North Korea are incapable of mounting an attack on anyone right now, their multi-million man 'standing army' is barely surviving, the civilians are not even doing that well, and the 'leadership' are off in the twilight zone.
China are more concerned with their acceptance into the West on commercial grounds and a growing economy on one hand, while the promise of cultural acceptance via the Olympic Games is a huge priority.
Don't forget, the NVA soundly belted PRA several times when the Chinese attempted to move into Vietnam.
You want flashpoints and hotspots?
This weeks chartoppers ... #1, Israel v Israeli Factions! Closely followed by India v Pakistan.
Jafo, looking forward to viewing PI, its all on tape, tapping this out on my way back from Canberra after 4 days hard slog!
Provided the 'Grace L Fergusson Stormdoor and Airline Company' can make it into Tullamarine of course.
Bloody airline monopolies ....... >
The 'Rainbow Warrior' incident .... if it wasn't for the fact that they managed to kill a person it would be the stuff of Inspector Clouseau. (I stand ready to be corrected)
And then it was a farce, the operatives were returned and promptly dropped out of sight.
A few thoughts for the 'strategists' to contemplate.
Shutting off a nation's oil supply is exactly what precipitated Pearl Harbour.
OK, it was a large contributing factor.... part of the overall process.
During the Iran/Iraq War the US allied itself with Iraq, even flying air support and engaging with Iranian Naval units in combat.....aside from supplying arms and munitions in large quantities.
Then we have the cruiser with an Airbus 'kill' on its scoresheet, a civilian airliner no less.
When the Soviet Union (sic) invaded Afghanistan, their opposition were supplied and supported by the US .... the principle of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a double edged and very sharp sword.
Remember the name "Oliver North"?
Perhaps re-reading a little history might be a good move, people who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over ..... and over.
Lecrayon
Reply #217 Monday, October 21, 2002 7:34 AM
Reply #217 Monday, October 21, 2002 7:34 AM
Joe: http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/bosnia010706.html
They were the ones that planned and executed ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia.
Bakerstreet, you take statements far too personal and I know you like to personalize a discussion. That way you can pinpoint and slap to your own satisfaction. You interpret single sentences the way suits you best to get aroused or give someone else another hit in the face. I am not playing your game.
They were the ones that planned and executed ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia.
Bakerstreet, you take statements far too personal and I know you like to personalize a discussion. That way you can pinpoint and slap to your own satisfaction. You interpret single sentences the way suits you best to get aroused or give someone else another hit in the face. I am not playing your game.
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #218 Monday, October 21, 2002 7:35 AM
Reply #218 Monday, October 21, 2002 7:35 AM
Nice words wombat. There is this two faced aspect to all governments. Politics has no morals.
I was wondering. In this US 'holy war' against terrorism Mr Bush is waging, is he going to pursue IRA terrorists? After all, they have butchered 10 times as many civilians as the sept 11 terrorists, including children and babies. Perhaps his lack of enthusiasm comes from the fact that most of the IRA funding came from US citizens. Allies? Only when it's politically convenient.
And if you want to know where Osama bin Laden is take a close look at Pakistan. We should have sorted them out the same time as Afghanistan, but as we have seen Mr Bush prefers soft targets such as Iraq. 'Kicking the ass' of Saddam brings little loss and a lot of political Kudos. Whereas tackling a more formidable opponent may just get the US nose bloodied and ruin his re-election chances. This is why he has conveniently forgotten Osama and his chums.
If these terrorists are going to be dealt with properly full action needs to be taken. You can't pick and choose targets.
As for the French, Greenpeace is just about their level of opponent...
I was wondering. In this US 'holy war' against terrorism Mr Bush is waging, is he going to pursue IRA terrorists? After all, they have butchered 10 times as many civilians as the sept 11 terrorists, including children and babies. Perhaps his lack of enthusiasm comes from the fact that most of the IRA funding came from US citizens. Allies? Only when it's politically convenient.
And if you want to know where Osama bin Laden is take a close look at Pakistan. We should have sorted them out the same time as Afghanistan, but as we have seen Mr Bush prefers soft targets such as Iraq. 'Kicking the ass' of Saddam brings little loss and a lot of political Kudos. Whereas tackling a more formidable opponent may just get the US nose bloodied and ruin his re-election chances. This is why he has conveniently forgotten Osama and his chums.
If these terrorists are going to be dealt with properly full action needs to be taken. You can't pick and choose targets.
As for the French, Greenpeace is just about their level of opponent...
Lecrayon
Reply #219 Monday, October 21, 2002 7:38 AM
Reply #219 Monday, October 21, 2002 7:38 AM
Woops, just heard a rumour this sniper is french. Whoaaaaaaaa. Now that is a justification to bomb France and get rid of their nuclear weaponry. Go ahead, flame away. (this is meant ironically)
Lecrayon
Reply #220 Monday, October 21, 2002 7:41 AM
Reply #220 Monday, October 21, 2002 7:41 AM
Fuzzy, I agree..Wombat, great seeing you putting things in perspective
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Reply #201 Sunday, October 20, 2002 6:07 PM
Who's next? France? They have nuclear weapons too. And they opposed to the initial suggestion of the US concerning Iraq. Are they suddenly terrorists too?
As an European I get really sick. Let's go skinning. I wish that sniper in Washington turned towards leading people, especially the ones who initiate large masses to get fighting each other for the sake of what