Bye bye Napster
Thursday, September 5, 2002 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
So Napster appears to be about to move from Chapter 11 to Chapter 7 liquidation.
During the ealry days of our news group, Napster was a pretty hot topic as people debated their business model, business ethics, and the record industry ethics.
I'm on fan of the record industry but I think many of us who are in the business of CREATING intellectual property can breath a sigh of relief to see that Napster died. Part of the reason for that (a big reason) was the very idea that people could get rich by allowing others to pilfer the work of others.
Early Object Desktop users may recall the discussion of Object Recommendation, which preceded Napster by a year. This component allowed users to select folders on their hard drive as well as links on the net" to "recommend" to others. These files were then available as part of a global file database. Why did we kill it? Because we couldn't figure out how to prevent people from using it to pirate software and music. An ethical dilema that Shawn Fanning apparently did not worry about when he whipped up Napster in MFC a year later and went on to win various "technology of the year awards" to the dismay of software develoeprs everywhere who had been discussing peer file networks for years but were prevented from creating open ones due to moral/ethics issues involved.
So while there is definitely a bit of a sour grapes feeling among some of us that someone could gain international fame as a "brilliant" software developer simply by having no moral qualms over IP theft, at least in the end there seems to be justice - that you can't necessarily make a long term business out of creating things designed mainly so that others to steal the work of others easily.
(flame away)
During the ealry days of our news group, Napster was a pretty hot topic as people debated their business model, business ethics, and the record industry ethics.
I'm on fan of the record industry but I think many of us who are in the business of CREATING intellectual property can breath a sigh of relief to see that Napster died. Part of the reason for that (a big reason) was the very idea that people could get rich by allowing others to pilfer the work of others.
Early Object Desktop users may recall the discussion of Object Recommendation, which preceded Napster by a year. This component allowed users to select folders on their hard drive as well as links on the net" to "recommend" to others. These files were then available as part of a global file database. Why did we kill it? Because we couldn't figure out how to prevent people from using it to pirate software and music. An ethical dilema that Shawn Fanning apparently did not worry about when he whipped up Napster in MFC a year later and went on to win various "technology of the year awards" to the dismay of software develoeprs everywhere who had been discussing peer file networks for years but were prevented from creating open ones due to moral/ethics issues involved.
So while there is definitely a bit of a sour grapes feeling among some of us that someone could gain international fame as a "brilliant" software developer simply by having no moral qualms over IP theft, at least in the end there seems to be justice - that you can't necessarily make a long term business out of creating things designed mainly so that others to steal the work of others easily.
(flame away)
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WOM
Reply #42 Friday, September 6, 2002 10:52 PM
Reply #42 Friday, September 6, 2002 10:52 PM
Thanks SlowNeasy. A great article and I remember Janis Ian signing her songs way back then. I wish I had them. 
SkinneRyan
Reply #43 Friday, September 6, 2002 11:21 PM
Reply #43 Friday, September 6, 2002 11:21 PM
You people are overlooking a few things.
My dad used to use Napster all the time to get old songs that he wouldn't be able to find if he walked into a record store, so the only way he could fine them was over the internet. Sure it is stealing (technically) but the artists weren't expecting to earn money from records that were released 20 years ago, so they don't even know that they're lost anything.
Anyway, can any of you people tell me that you have never copied any songs off the radio onto a tape before?
And what about recording a movie off the tv?
Hands up everyone who's never recorded a movie.
SkinneRyan can't see any hands up yet...
Isn't that 'stealing' too? But people have been doing that for years (at least, since video recorders came out anyway) but nobody in Hollywood (or wherever the movie has been made) has complained about that yet.
My dad used to use Napster all the time to get old songs that he wouldn't be able to find if he walked into a record store, so the only way he could fine them was over the internet. Sure it is stealing (technically) but the artists weren't expecting to earn money from records that were released 20 years ago, so they don't even know that they're lost anything.
Anyway, can any of you people tell me that you have never copied any songs off the radio onto a tape before?
And what about recording a movie off the tv?
Hands up everyone who's never recorded a movie.
SkinneRyan can't see any hands up yet...
Isn't that 'stealing' too? But people have been doing that for years (at least, since video recorders came out anyway) but nobody in Hollywood (or wherever the movie has been made) has complained about that yet.
messybuu
Reply #44 Saturday, September 7, 2002 10:48 AM
Reply #44 Saturday, September 7, 2002 10:48 AM
Recording a movie on television isn't the same as downloading music. IIRC, the people who make VCRs and the people who make movies compromised, and now the people who make movies receive a portion of money for every tape sold. As for the radio, the music on the radio is authorized to be on the radio, whereas the owners of the actual music never authorized the music to be on Napster. I also believe they receive some money for every cassette or tape recorder as well.
c242
Reply #46 Saturday, September 7, 2002 11:49 AM
Reply #46 Saturday, September 7, 2002 11:49 AM
At least in Germany there is a certain amount of money included for the GEMA (German RIAA)in the price for tapes. And in Audio-CDR's (whoever buys them ?), too...
Lecrayon
Reply #47 Saturday, September 7, 2002 12:40 PM
Reply #47 Saturday, September 7, 2002 12:40 PM
SlowNeasy, thanks for giving that link. A very good article and transparant insight how music recording business works! Also, again a great example how greedy people start to build fences around their "hard earned" money. All they did is making sure successful artists are taken away their freedom. Talking about stealing...You cant put your voice on the net because the RIAA owns you? YUCK...It really is about time artists combine new efforts to present their works in another way than through old ways and run the risk of being exploited. Napster failed...Probably too early, but one has to start somewhere. In Frogboy's definition the writer of that article has stolen music by copying one cd onto 3 others...To me RIAA could be in danger because of not working along with artists and of not wanting to change to more modern ways of publishing. And indeed it seems they are doing it to themselves then. So Napster is down, but KaZaa exists...I can download a fully functional Photoshop 7 program from there for free...flame away 
messybuu
Reply #48 Saturday, September 7, 2002 2:02 PM
Reply #48 Saturday, September 7, 2002 2:02 PM
Lecrayon: It really is about time artists combine new efforts to present their works in another way than through old ways and run the risk of being exploited.
MessiahWWKD: In other words, artists shohuld be exploited by companies such as Napster instead of companies such as Geffen Records?
Lecrayon: To me RIAA could be in danger because of not working along with artists and of not wanting to change to more modern ways of publishing.
MessiahWWKD: Napster worked along with the artists by not regulating it in such a way that all its content on the servers had the consent of the authors? Of course they didn't, but to be honest, I don't think anybody cares whether or not Napster or the RIAA is cooperating with the artists. It's all about free music!
Lecrayon: So Napster is down, but KaZaa exists...I can download a fully functional Photoshop 7 program from there for free...flame away
MessiahWWKD: It sounds as if you're proud of it.
If only people would be honest and admit that they care as much for the artist and the rights of the artists as much as the RIAA does, if not less. After all, if these people really cared about the artists, then they would only trade the content of artists that support Napster and company, and make an effort to prevent music of artists who are against it from being publically distributed. In that way, everybody's happy except those people who don't care about artists at all and simply want free music.
MessiahWWKD: In other words, artists shohuld be exploited by companies such as Napster instead of companies such as Geffen Records?
Lecrayon: To me RIAA could be in danger because of not working along with artists and of not wanting to change to more modern ways of publishing.
MessiahWWKD: Napster worked along with the artists by not regulating it in such a way that all its content on the servers had the consent of the authors? Of course they didn't, but to be honest, I don't think anybody cares whether or not Napster or the RIAA is cooperating with the artists. It's all about free music!
Lecrayon: So Napster is down, but KaZaa exists...I can download a fully functional Photoshop 7 program from there for free...flame away
MessiahWWKD: It sounds as if you're proud of it.
If only people would be honest and admit that they care as much for the artist and the rights of the artists as much as the RIAA does, if not less. After all, if these people really cared about the artists, then they would only trade the content of artists that support Napster and company, and make an effort to prevent music of artists who are against it from being publically distributed. In that way, everybody's happy except those people who don't care about artists at all and simply want free music.
WOM
Reply #49 Saturday, September 7, 2002 2:08 PM
Reply #49 Saturday, September 7, 2002 2:08 PM
Jose- I doubt that you will change Lecrayons mind or any one else's who think stealing is on.
bakerstreet
Reply #50 Saturday, September 7, 2002 2:10 PM
Reply #50 Saturday, September 7, 2002 2:10 PM
beware the talking head...
MessiahWWKD: i think you've made your point about a million times. You exemplify the situation. You state "truths" and people go on and download music regardless. Starting to feel like a waste of time? It is.
MessiahWWKD: i think you've made your point about a million times. You exemplify the situation. You state "truths" and people go on and download music regardless. Starting to feel like a waste of time? It is.
messybuu
Reply #51 Saturday, September 7, 2002 2:34 PM
Reply #51 Saturday, September 7, 2002 2:34 PM
Actually, I did help somebody "see the light," even though it was only after he wrote a book he hopes to be published. Besides, I don't do this to convert others. I do this for the same reason that the pro-Napster gang likes to make the same points over and over even though the RIAA and artists still feel the same way. We just want to sound smart.
Lecrayon
Reply #52 Saturday, September 7, 2002 2:43 PM
Reply #52 Saturday, September 7, 2002 2:43 PM
MWWKD: I simply said about KaZaa what was possible...I am not 20 anymore, but if were I would be tempted to download PS 7. Now that I can afford it, I'd probably buy the program, just as I bought Object Desktop, CursorXP, WC-subscription, Creatures 3 (ask Greenreaper how cool that neverending game is, or better look at his creatures skins). However I opted for a cheaper possibility. Forgive me MWWKD if I set you on the wrong track of mind, but about combining artists I meant a sort of trust where artists are able to show/play there works on innovative new media, owned by the artists. A new approach. Prices could go lower too then. That would be an incentive to buy/download works/music. I have no knowledge of how Napster worked for I never was interested in it, but from what I read by the link given by SlowNeasy Napster was a tool to exchange p2p music. Morals and norms still have to be settled yet in this new media field, and in my opinion it should be decided on a democratic basis, based on the common behaviour of the majority. Since those things hasnt settled yet Internet and other media like WIFI still are in kids shoes and it probably takes 5 - 10 years to sort of understand how this virtual community has regulated themselves..Is that making sense?
moshi
Reply #53 Saturday, September 7, 2002 2:45 PM
Reply #53 Saturday, September 7, 2002 2:45 PM
nearly all of my favorite music (dancehall reggae) is released on vinyl before it gets pressed on cds (months later and by far not all tunes). i wonder how this digital rights stuff will work there. anybody got a clue?
messybuu
Reply #54 Saturday, September 7, 2002 3:16 PM
Reply #54 Saturday, September 7, 2002 3:16 PM
I understand Lecrayon. I apologize for my assumptions about you. Personally, I think the best option that could protect artists but still provide consumers with a plethora of content is something such as MP3.com, except with a program such as Napster that makes searching and downloading music incredibly easy.
Lecrayon
Reply #55 Saturday, September 7, 2002 3:28 PM
Reply #55 Saturday, September 7, 2002 3:28 PM
No need to apologize MWWKD My way of saying things isn't alwasy as clear as it should be. I think we sort of agree of how to use new ways to get artists work towards the end user.
My way of saying things isn't alwasy as clear as it should be. I think we sort of agree of how to use new ways to get artists work towards the end user.
jarget
Reply #56 Saturday, September 7, 2002 11:00 PM
Reply #56 Saturday, September 7, 2002 11:00 PM
Na Na Na Na, Na Na Na Na, Hey Hey Hey, Goodbye.
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Reply #41 Friday, September 6, 2002 10:49 PM